Lawsuit: Women and the Draft

[KillerMuffin]

http://www.dailynewstribune.com/news/local_regional/ap_lawsuit01102003.htm

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BOSTON -- Five Massachusetts students filed a lawsuit yesterday challenging a federal law that requires 18-year-old men, but not women, to register for possible military service.

The lawsuit claims that the requirement amounts to gender-based discrimination and violates their civil rights.

There has not been a military draft since 1973. But in 1980, a requirement for 18-year-old men to register with the Selective Service System was revived. Men who do not register are barred from receiving federal student aid and are subject to criminal prosecution.

Samuel Schwartz, an 18-year-old college student from Ipswich, said the idea to challenge the law grew out of a dinner conversation he had with his 17-year-old sister, Nicole Foley, a high school senior.

Both teens wondered why men have to register and women do not. So they asked their father, Harvey Schwartz, a Boston civil rights lawyer, to file a lawsuit. Three of their friends also joined the suit, which asks the U.S. District Court in Boston to declare the law unconstitutional.

"It's really unfair," said Samuel Schwartz. "It really places women as second-class citizens, and also, it puts a large burden on men."

-----QUOTE-----

I'm inclined to agree with this. Women cannot have the equality we've been demanding for years upon years if we don't share the responsibilities in society that the men have.

What do you think? Should women be equally required to sign up with the selective service and thereby be equally responsible should they ever manage to call up the draft once again.

 

[acitore_vuli]

.

 

[ShamelessFlirt]

Most women are smart enough to stay out of a draft, you might catch yourself a death ...lol

 

[modest mouse]

Yes, women should be required to register. I've said so many times on this board. The lawsuit should prove interesting as for the life of me I cannot think of what argument the Govt could have.

 

[Chicklet]

well, personally, I don't think that there should be any draft at all. But, if there had to be, I'd think women and men both should be included...

Chicklet

 

[HeavyStick]

What is wrong with a woman walking into the recruiter's office and joining on her own?

 

[curious2c]

What is wrong with a woman walking into the recruiter's office and joining on her own?

How about EVERYBODY being able to walk in and join up on their own instead of having a draft at all?

The military has gotten very selective on who they will take now days, and I feel that a draft is not the way to go. It has never really been needed. Why would the military want people who do not want to be there in the first place? When you get people in the service who do not want to be there problems start to develop that are just not worth the effort to put up with.

On that thought...since a draft will probably always be just there, around the corner so to speak...then BOTH sexes should be on it. No exceptions. It is really the only fair way to handle it to begin with.

 

[ksmybuttons]

It is time. I would like to see all able bodied people be required to register and be available. Why just 18?

Those who were missed between 73 and 80 should have to register, too, so they can be on record.

 

[HeavyStick]

1How about EVERYBODY being able to walk in and join up on their own instead of having a draft at all?

2The military has gotten very selective on who they will take now days, and I feel that a draft is not the way to go. It has never really been needed. Why would the military want people who do not want to be there in the first place? When you get people in the service who do not want to be there problems start to develop that are just not worth the effort to put up with.

3On that thought...since a draft will probably always be just there, around the corner so to speak...then BOTH sexes should be on it. No exceptions. It is really the only fair way to handle it to begin with.

1. I agree.

2. How has the requirements for military changed? It wasn't until 1995/1996 that they made it mandatory for a HS Diploma or GED. Even then a person could still in on a waiver.

3. I agree


The service isn't excluding anyone. The bill supporting the draft, makes it very easy for someone who doesn't want to go to combat or join at all.

Conscientious Objector.

 

[mbb308]

Those who were missed between 73 and 80 should have to register, too, so they can be on record.

Why? We're all too friggin' old to go now.

Anywhere.

At least, not alone.

 

[Fly_On_Wall]

I think it sould be the opposit way

not force women to do it as well but stop forcing men to

if you want to serve your country that should be a choise whould it not?

I dont' know about you but if I'm putting my life on the line I don't want people next to me that are only there casue they were forced to be.

 

[Ham Murabi]

If they revive the draft because war is likely, and if both men and women are registered, there will still have to be quotas. Few women can meet the physical demands on a wartime infantryman, though the "new" army would like you to think that isn't the case. Basic training now is a joke compared to what was the norm 30 years ago.
If men and women are drafted in wartime, it will still be men who will face enemy fire, and there better men in rear-echelon positions should the frontline troops be overrun.
I'm not questioning whether or not a woman can fire an M-16 as well as a man. But I doubt most women can carry a 60-pound pack on a long march (as well as a rifle, heavy helmet and wearing clunky boots), or load 100-pound shells into a howitzer.

 

[curious2c]

2. How has the requirements for military changed? It wasn't until 1995/1996 that they made it mandatory for a HS Diploma or GED. Even then a person could still in on a waiver.

On this point...several kids in our local high school were turned down for the service. They had diploma's, and were healthy...just not that great of a school record grade wise. Their scores on the military aptitude test was not known by me...but that was part of the reason they were turned down.

Not sure if this is something new now or what...but those guys are quite happy now that all this Iraq stuff has come up.

On that same point...Two were taken and they did not have the diploma's. I think they got GED's, but for what ever reason...I think that their scores on the military aptitude test must have shown something promising.

It seems that we are in agreement on this particular subject Heavy.

 

[Tantrikenetic]

Ugh....I'm turning 20 this year....which means I'm on the front list if they reinstitute the draft for the war on Iraq...I sure hope they don't....

 

[ksmybuttons]

The service isn't excluding anyone. The bill supporting the draft, makes it very easy for someone who doesn't want to go to combat or join at all.

Conscientious Objector.

The bill that has been introduced before the House Armed Services Committee for the draft takes into consideration conscientious objectors. They would have to go through basic military training.

 

[JazzManJim]

On this point...several kids in our local high school were turned down for the service. They had diploma's, and were healthy...just not that great of a school record grade wise. Their scores on the military aptitude test was not known by me...but that was part of the reason they were turned down.

Not sure if this is something new now or what...but those guys are quite happy now that all this Iraq stuff has come up.

All of the armed services have been like this for a decade or so now, at least. They are to the point with personnel, that they can afford to be very choosy about who they do or don't take. They have far more applicants every year than they really need and can afford to raise the entry bar higher each year.

That being said, I find it interesting that in the latest mentions about renewing the draft, the military has staunchly come out against it. basically, they're saying that they don't need the influx of personnel and that it would seriously degrade its ability to do its job.

That being said, I find the lawsuit interesting. I would have expected to have males presss the suit claiming that they are being forced to do something that women are not. To have women sue in order to be conscripted seems backwards to me, legally. The gov't may well be able to argue that they are not infringing on any of the women's rights at all insofar as they are not asking anything at all of them.

That being said, I think we should end Selective Service altogether. It's just not necessary.

 

[HeavyStick]

On this point...several kids in our local high school were turned down for the service. They had diploma's, and were healthy...just not that great of a school record grade wise. Their scores on the military aptitude test was not known by me...but that was part of the reason they were turned down.

Not sure if this is something new now or what...but those guys are quite happy now that all this Iraq stuff has come up.

On that same point...Two were taken and they did not have the diploma's. I think they got GED's, but for what ever reason...I think that their scores on the military aptitude test must have shown something promising.

It seems that we are in agreement on this particular subject Heavy.

They must have rocked out on the ASVAB, been to heavy, had a criminal offense they didn't tell, or an offense that couldn't be waived.

If a healthy adult is within height and weight standards (Marines the strictest, Sailors being the fattest), and they score above mice shit on the ASVAB they should be in. I don't think you're getting the full story.

 

[HeavyStick]

The bill that has been introduced before the House Armed Services Committee for the draft takes into consideration conscientious objectors. They would have to go through basic military training.

(b) CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS- (1) Any person who claims, because of religious training and belief (as defined in section 6(j) of the Military Selective Service Act (50 U.S.C. 456(j))), exemption from combatant training included as part of the program of basic military training and education and whose claim is sustained by the local board shall, when inducted, participate in basic military training and education that does not include any combatant training component. The person may be transferred to a national service program, as provided in section 4(d)

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/t2GPO...dbname=107_cong_bills&docid=f:h3598ih.txt.pdf

 

[tenyari]

When I was in the military I used to tell people that I volunteered because I felt it was right to do, but if there had been a draft I would have dodged it, because I felt that would also have been the only moral choice for someone who believes in freedom.

As someone who belives strongly in gender equality, I feel it is wrong that only men are in the pool of potential draftees, but I feel the solution is to eliminate the pool altogether.

I used to also complain about the fact that the physical tests where different for men and women, and that only men got their heads shaved.

The men were told this was to build a sense of a common identity... if that was so, why were the women left as individuals?

I felt the same about combat duty restrictions on women...


Equality is a complete concept, not a half ideal. It comes with perks, but also burdens... It's one of those cases were you've got to get your cake and eat it too, or you really haven't gotten anything.

 

[tenyari]

I'm not questioning whether or not a woman can fire an M-16 as well as a man. But I doubt most women can carry a 60-pound pack on a long march (as well as a rifle, heavy helmet and wearing clunky boots), or load 100-pound shells into a howitzer.

Perhaps for infantry yes.

But a pussy won't stop you being a good tank driver, chopper pilot, jet pilot, sniper, working on a flightline, linguist, technician, or thousands of other jobs done in today's modern military.

By the way... Even though the modern military has lower physical standards for women than it does men, I've seen many women on excercises carrying all that equipment with no more trouble than the men beside them.

I did meet one woman who felt she should never have to be in the field or combat, and should in fact get exempted from exercises, on the sole grounds of what she wore between her thighs... but she was an exception to my experience in the service.

 

[tenyari]

On this point...several kids in our local high school were turned down for the service. They had diploma's, and were healthy...just not that great of a school record grade wise. Their scores on the military aptitude test was not known by me...but that was part of the reason they were turned down.

It varies by the needs of the moment and the individual recruiter. My flight in basic had people who's ASVABs were in the 30's... A lot of them were going into military police, office jobs, or bomb maintanence (forgot what that was called officially - they assembled bombs for the planes).

I was one of three in the high 90s. The one person above me was a constant bug in my side as it was someone who was a radical fundamentalist who believed the world was only 4000 years old because that's what they teach in church... Nevermind that China has a written history older than this, as does Egypt. We were different by a single decimal point, but it still rubbed me wrong...