Languages in stories

[Winter_Fare]

I'm after some advice from anyone who has written dialogue for multilingual characters into a primarily English narrative.

What works better in your experience? Entering the actual language they use in italics/quotes, or the narrative describing them talking?

I want to convey a character who's gradually joining in more conversation as she learns more words and I don't want to clutter the text but at the same time I want to give an idea of her tone. Thx x

 

[JuanaSalsa]

I've included non-English dialogue in two of my published stories, A Kinky Engineers Romance (Russian), My Krampus (German), and in my upcoming Geek Pride story (Spanish). I try to sprinkle in some words and phrases in the other language where either by the reaction of the other person, or the general scene, it's clear what they said. If I have a longer exchange of dialogue that would be in the other language, I write it in English, but with some note that the speaker has switched languages.

For the Russian and Spanish dialogue, I used phrases I knew and for German I was able to get the help of someone that knew German. In the case of my War Really Sucks story, I chose not to include any Ukranian phrases because I have no familiarity with the language and didn't know anyone who could help me in a hurry.

 

[MrPixel]

The style I was taught and have used for decades is to italicize non-English words and phrases within English text, including dialog.

 

[BiscuitHammer]

I'm after some advice from anyone who has written dialogue for multilingual characters into a primarily English narrative.

What works better in your experience? Entering the actual language they use in italics/quotes, or the narrative describing them talking?

I want to convey a character who's gradually joining in more conversation as she learns more words and I don't want to clutter the text but at the same time I want to give an idea of her tone. Thx x

I have this happen in almost every chapter of the Alexaverse, so I'm familiar.

I have characters speaking other languages italicized. (Freja speaking Danish, or Val speaking Italian, for instance). I tend to mention briefly what language they're speaking in, if it's not a given or very obvious. Sometimes I'll use the native tongue, italicized, and then provide the English translation below; for instance, if someone is listening to a foreign tongue while eavesdropping and is translating in their head.

Leaving small words and phrases untranslated can be fun, because they're simple enough for the reader to check. Val muttering in Italian is always a laugh.

“E’ venerdi, non me rompete I coglioni…”

“Oh, you know I didn’t mean it that way, tu stronza.”

“Madre di Dio,” she whispered in a shaky voice, crossing herself in fear. “Questo posto e fottutamente infestato…”

It's not absolutely essential to know what she was saying, since the scene sets it, but it can be fun.

If Alexa and Freja are speaking Danish, I translate it to English and just italicize it. I also throw in the occasional Danish word to keep it relevant and straight.

Sometimes I will use large blocks of non-English text to convey a different language being spoken and provide no translation, but only if it's rather irrelevant what the person is actually saying.

When reading other people's work, I find it easiest to be told what language is about to be spoken, followed by italicized English. Italicizing is the biggest part for me.

 

[Winter_Fare]

Thanks for rapid responses guys!

 

[Winter_Fare]

Two ways:
______

The men were not kind to Tamas. He took to eating with Neni and I in the kitchen because the common room was unbearable, and he didn't dare go out to the latrine alone. This made no sense to me at all but he explained it.

"The cruelest ones would happily fuck me themselves. If they kill me, they kill that part of themselves that is weak."

"They not dare." Neni said, gripping his hand protectively.

"Wouldn't," Tamas corrected. "Ez lószar. Horse shit."

She was right, of course, though who could blame Tamas for his fear. The men had too much respect for the commander to lay a finger on him.

"But why aren't they shits to me?"

Neni cuffed the back of my head and laughed. It was a delight to hear it.

"Édesem, you not see? Ki merné? Megijednek egy katonalánytól"

Tamas smiled too, "She says they wouldn't dare."

"Ne fiú, mondd az igazat," she scolded. "They scared in Erzsébet, and knife!"

"Of!" Tamas said wearily. "They are scared of our Elizabeth and her knives."

_____

The men were not kind to Tamas. He took to eating with Neni and I in the kitchen because the common room was unbearable, and he didn't dare go out to the latrine alone. This made no sense to me at all but he explained it.

"The cruelest ones would happily fuck me themselves. If they kill me, they kill that part of themselves that is weak."

"They not dare." Neni said, gripping his hand protectively.

"Wouldn't," Tamas corrected. "But that's horse shit."

She was right, of course, though who could blame Tamas for his fear. The men had too much respect for the commander to lay a finger on him.

"But why aren't they shits to me?"

Neni cuffed the back of my head and laughed. It was a delight to hear it. She tried to reassure me but I couldn't follow what she said.

Tamas smiled too, "She says they wouldn't dare."

She scolded him, perhaps unhappy with his translation. "They scared in Erzsébet, and knife!"

"Of!" Tamas said wearily. "They are scared of our Elizabeth and her knives."

 

[JuanaSalsa]

Two ways:

I prefer the first =]

 

[oggbashan]

I have written stories that should be in classical Latin, or Middle English, or Norman French.

All I do is put a disclaimer at the start:

'The characters would be speaking Classical Latin. Their words are retold in Modern English'.

 

[MrPixel]

Great work with the diacriticals, BTW. That seriously conveys the tone.

Where I get hung-up sometimes is non-English words that have crossed into the English lexicon. "Smörgåsbord", for example. The diacritical marks help there. Similar problem with "mademoiselle" and "monsieur", obviously from French, but so incorporated into English nowadays they don't even trigger the spell checker.

 

[Bramblethorn]

It depends on how the protagonist is meant to experience that language. If they're fluent, I'd try to give the translation; if they don't understand it, I'd give the original.

For instance, in "Loss Function" my protagonist Patricia is an English speaker. Her lover Nadja prefers Russian. Early on in their relationship, when Nadja's using Russian, I leave in in untranslated Cyrillic so the reader experiences the same obstacle as Patricia:

PR: Patricia.Rosewood@****.ac.uk 11:27:01Z
Hey Nadja, what is "данные_проверки"?

Corpus NK_PR 01265
Medium: email
NK:n_kapustina@****.edu.sj 12:08:20Z

Validation data.

Corpus NK_PR 01266
Medium: email
PR: Patricia.Rosewood@****.ac.uk 12:35:10Z

Okay, thanks. You know if you write your code comments in Russian, I can't read it, right?

Corpus NK_PR 01267
Medium: email
NK:n_kapustina@****.edu.sj 12:51:07Z

You should learn then. It is beautiful language.

But later on, after Patricia has learned Russian, I just mark the dialogue as translated:

Corpus NK_PR 236820
Medium: homechat
2037-02-01
Translated: Russian-English

PR:trisha 13:08:25Z Hey cabbage.

NK:cabbage 13:10:20Z Hey Trisha.

PR:trisha 13:11:22Z It's about Toby.

At this stage Patricia has no problem understanding Nadja in Russian, so the reader shouldn't either.

Some things don't translate directly. By the end of the story, Patricia has learned to between four different forms of Nadja's name depending on the situation. It would have bogged down the story to explain that within the story, so I just covered it with a note at the beginning:

It might be helpful to know that Russian-style names change form depending on the social context, similar to how "Elizabeth" might be "Bettie" to her friends but with some extra complications. Searching on "Eastern Slavic naming customs" will find more information.

Nadja's last name is Kapustina, and "kapusta" is Russian for "cabbage". So Patricia calling her "cabbage" as a term of endearment is a pun. I just left that one as an Easter egg for readers who know enough Russian to pick it up.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I am dealing with a similar issue in my WIP. It takes place primarily in Montreal, and the characters are all, presumably, bi-lingual. After much thought, I've decide to use English only, with an author's note explaining that the dialogue has been so rendered for the the sake of convenience and clarity.

 

[Winter_Fare]

I am dealing with a similar issue in my WIP. It takes place primarily in Montreal, and the characters are all, presumably, bi-lingual. After much thought, I've decide to use English only, with an author's note explaining that the dialogue has been so rendered for the the sake of convenience and clarity.

In some ways the language barrier is integral to my story. It is bloody hard work though.

The dialogue has a lot of work to do already in the excerpt I shared, that said I've gone back and edited some out already. My husband suggested making more of their body language, and I agree.

 

[Bramblethorn]

In some ways the language barrier is integral to my story. It is bloody hard work though.

The dialogue has a lot of work to do already in the excerpt I shared, that said I've gone back and edited some out already. My husband suggested making more of their body language, and I agree.

A writer's tip I saw recently: "How would you communicate this if you were making this story as a silent film?"

 

[Winter_Fare]

It depends on how the protagonist is meant to experience that language. If they're fluent, I'd try to give the translation; if they don't understand it, I'd give the original.

For instance, in "Loss Function" my protagonist Patricia is an English speaker. Her lover Nadja prefers Russian. Early on in their relationship, when Nadja's using Russian, I leave in in untranslated Cyrillic so the reader experiences the same obstacle as Patricia:

But later on, after Patricia has learned Russian, I just mark the dialogue as translated:

At this stage Patricia has no problem understanding Nadja in Russian, so the reader shouldn't either.
.

That's a really useful perspective, thank you.
Protagonist knows no Hungarian at that point in history but is fluent by the time she's telling the story which is complicated. The communication barrier is a big part of how the three characters in the scene relate to each other x

 

[FamilyCruiser]

Old joke:
"What do you call someone who speaks three languages?" Trilingual.
"What do you call someone who speaks two languages?" Bilingual.
"What do you call someone who speaks just one language?" An American.

In a couple of stories, where protagonists speak multiple languages, as a way to segue into English I have had the "least linguistic" person in the story attempt to converse in say Spanish or French, creating confusion and misunderstanding before all parties switch to English for the remainder of the story.

For stories set in say Ancient Greece, I just use English and italicize any Greek terms that are used. (And give parenthetical explinations if the terms are not commonly known.)

 

[Winter_Fare]

I didn't know about italicizing other languages, that's annoying.
.

I found formatting with html daunting so I never bothered before, but it does help separate things out

I've only used another language in one story and I doubt I will ever do it again, lol. There's about 12-18 lines of dialogue from the French love interest in his native tongue. Not explained, just tossed in, mostly involving a nickname for the main character, but there is a comment and reply between the two main characters during an argument. I had them checked over by a French person I know and sought out help from Reddit to double check that nothing was getting lost in translation between my friend and I (and to make sure friend wasn't fucking with me.) I think I had to fix two phrases, one being too intimate for a grandmother toward her grandson and the other was a rookie mistake of forgetting to adjust to the feminine version of the word, and the rest were fine, which fucking thrilled me because I haven't seen a French book since middle school.

That's impressive, and I remember reading Bloodwine months ago! Grandma was definitely over intimate if I recall...

I've yet to go over the Hungarian dialogue carefully it probably makes zero grammatical sense at the moment because Google. I don't know anyone who speaks the language fluently so yay for the internet!

 

[PennameWombat]

I’ve made spare use of non-English dialogue in a few stories. I’ve never italicised it. Saw no reason to. (If I’m submitting to a publisher who wants it done so, I’ll obey. Here? No.) I also will never put an English translation in brackets. I’m not writing text books.

In Chlorine Dreams, my female MC is a young Mexican-American woman who uses many phrases specific to Mexican Spanish. My male MC is American, but grew up around other Mexican-Americans, so is relatively familiar with the language. I never provide word for word translation, rather, his reactions and responses provide the meaning of what she (or her mother or acquaintances) said. Since it’s first-person, from my male MC’s perspective, he knows what’s being said, so the readers get the gist of it.

In Saturday in Paris, my female MC flight attendant is fluent in French. My male MC doesn’t know the language. She uses French a few times (including, uh, some rather rough language when she and a French woman almost come to blows). Those scenes are from the male’s MC, unless the reader knows French, they’re as confused as my MC. In some cases, such as at a restaurant, the general language comes through clearly enough (E.g., moules is mussels, etc.) For the near-fight scene, later in the story she recaps what was said.

I‘ve done similar in a couple of others, e.g., when Asha overhears some Italian and passes on the gist to Tracy (You Promised Me Geeks: UK Summer).

My American male MC in Adrift in Space was kidnapped by aliens. When they were speaking, since it was his POV, I didn’t even render their language. His thought process was just “sorta Asian sounding, kinda…” They gave him a ‘universal translator’ earbud and after that it was all just in English, except one word that became a key plot point. The only difference was that if the aliens were speaking their language, and it was coming through the translator, it was grammatical and properly-pronounced English. If they were speaking English, then it depended on the alien. Some spoke good English, others spoke it poorly (I fought the grammar checker tooth and nail.) Almost all of them lisped their ‘s’ sounds.

As to words like smorgasbord, that’ve been absorbed into English, I don’t bother with umlauts or diacritics or whatever for English text that doesn’t use them. If I am rendering dialogue in a language that uses them, I’d use them (as I did for some of the French.)

 

[Kumquatqueen]

For short sentences and phrases, I use the foreign language, with the character or listener making clear what was said, if necessary. And italicise.

"Like that BMW guy who lectured us said, 'when we want to sell to you, we will speak English. If you want to sell to us, then you must speak German.'"
"Genau. Das kann ich."
"You're a man of endless talents."

Given my readers are reading in English, I don't put large amounts of foreign language in, but will say "I explain to the guy that..."

I've actually done more glossing of English-language dialect than foreign:

'"D'you like giving up that control, letting yer man run your ride? Dressing up all beezer then undressin', showin' off yer gorgeous wee body? Ropes an' shackles? Or givin' it all up for a quare ride?"
I lived in Kilburn for a couple years after uni, which helped cement Irish dialect into my brain, but some of the subtleties go over my head, still. "Pretty much. But remind me -- is a 'quare ride' a good fuck, or a fucking hot man? Or is it more like 'queer as fuck'?"
"Either of the first two -- same difference, really."
"Oh, no! There's definitely hot men who don't turn out to be a good ride!"

He smiles lecherously and leans in again. "Not with me, there ain't." He hams up the Irishness for effect. "If ah get a buck at ye, wee doll, a'll buck t' fuck aht a ye, t' quarest ride in all yer days, so I will." That's clearly the sort of terrible chat-up line a drunken chav would try, just before chucking-out time.

I raise an eyebrow. "Oh, aye?" That's the extent of my own ability to copy his accent.

"Aye, I'll be t' most magic scrab as ever's ridden up the shuck o' thon wee arse!"

The best something good who's ever had me up my arse-crack. "Scrab?"

"Hoo, yeah." He twitches his fingers again, clearly lacking the cigarette to gesture with; I'll have to buy him some nice pens for the purpose. "A scrab's like a dead good lover, you end up with scrabs -- scratches -- on your back, see?"'

I did once put a couple sentences in italics in English, to indicate they were spoken in the language just mentioned, but I think actually that looked silly.

"No touching his arsehole, right?" Dan's guy calls over to me, in German.
"Correct," I confirm. "Enjoy his mouth, his cock..."
Dan perks up at 'sein Schwanz'. Obviously he's remembering the dirty words. "What you sayin', about my cock?"
"Recommending it, you gay tart. And just saying you don't want to get fucked. Er will nicht gefickt werden."
Dan thinks for a minute, then manages to produce his own German phrase. "Nur mit ihn." He points at me. "Only with him."
It's the first time Dan's spoken a foreign language, apart from sounding out phrasebook sentences. I'm well impressed. Who needs accurate dative-case, anyhow?

If you've got characters speaking for long periods in one language, then just writing in English but with word choices and structures indicating that is a good option, with the odd foreign word thrown in. Some ellipsis or (what?) can indicate when a narrator doesn't understand all of what's been said.

 

[FamilyCruiser]

I've yet to go over the Hungarian dialogue carefully it probably makes zero grammatical sense at the moment...

Court Clerk: You are Alexander Yahlt?
Alexander Yahlt: I am.
Clerk: You are hereby charged that on the 28th day of May 1970, you did wilfully, unlawfully, and with malice aforethought publish an alleged English-Hungarian phrasebook with intent to cause a breach of the peace. How do you plead?
Yahlt: Not guilty...
Clerk: You are the director of a publishing company?
Yahlt: I am the director of a publishing company.
Clerk: Your company publishes phrasebooks?
Yahlt: My company does publish phrasebooks...
Clerk: On the 28th of May, you published this phrasebook.
Yahlt: I did.
Clerk: I quote an example. The Hungarian phrase meaning 'Can you direct me to the station?' is translated by the English phrase, 'Please fondle my bum'.
Yahlt: I wish to plead incompetence.
(Monty Pyhon Episode 25)

 

[Kumquatqueen]

an alleged English-Hungarian phrasebook

I got into languages partly thanks to a tatty volume called "35 European Languages - Plus Arabic!" from around 1910. Until the internet it was remarkably useful for hasty learning numbers and pleasantries.

Though some phrases were obviously dated. It doesnt have the classic "my postilion has been struck by lightning" but I've always wanted to say "Do not detain me, my good man! Do you not realise I am a holder of His [sic] Brittanic Majesty's Passport?" Sadly the only opportunity was when American immigration took a dislike to my wrong accent and my range of visas in Arabic, Cyrillic and other alphabets, and kept me for an hour while they tested my American passport for authenticity, and I figured it would be a Bad Idea.

 

[oggbashan]

I have a copy of the infamous Portuguese - English book "English as she is spoke" made by a man who used a Portuguese - French dictionary and a French - English one and messed it up. Examples:

'It is considered impolite to tear pieces of your beard and dip it into the soup.'

'to craunch the marmoset'

Of the bed.
The bed wood
The feet's bed
The bed battom
The pillar's bed
The head's bed



This is the text of the abridged version:

https://www.exclassics.com/espoke/espkpdf.pdf

 

[Winter_Fare]

I have a copy of the infamous Portuguese - English book "English as she is spoke" made by a man who used a Portuguese - French dictionary and a French - English one and messed it up. Examples:

'It is considered impolite to tear pieces of your beard and dip it into the soup.'

'to craunch the marmoset'

Of the bed.
The bed wood
The feet's bed
The bed battom
The pillar's bed
The head's bed



This is the text of the abridged version:

https://www.exclassics.com/espoke/espkpdf.pdf

OMG...

"How is that gentilman who you did speak by and by?
Is a German.
I did think him Englishman.
He is of the Saxony side.
He speak the french very well.
Tough he is German, he speak so much well italyan, french, spanish and english, that
among the Italyans, they believe him Italyan, he speak the frenche as the Frenches
himselves. The Spanishesmen believe him Spanishing, and the Englishes, Englishman.
It is difficult to enjoy well so much several langages."

 

[Winter_Fare]

Objects of man.
The boots
The buckles
The buttons-holes
The buskins
The clogs
The wig
The morning-gown, night-gown
The lining

Woman objects.
The busk
The sash
The cornet
The pump
The paint or disguise
The spindle
The patches
The skate