Ladies, please educate me!

[SweetErika]

Ok, I've read several definitions of butch, femme, androgynous, and many, many other labels on this particular spectrum, but I'm never sure exactly what they mean when real people use them. Are they generally used to describe appearance, attitude/roles, or both? How do you personally define butch, femme, and androgynous? What would you identify as if asked where you fit on the butch-femme continuum? What are you basing that on (how you look, act, both, or other)?

 

[Equinoxe]

I would say they are used to describe both appearance and attitude and in fact I would say that attitude is more important than what amounts to style.

There are certain style elements of what is classically "butch" that cross-over into other stylistic concerns (combat boots for instance can be punk, goth, rivethead, or butch).

Hence, I would say that there is a certain attitude and way in which a person carries herself that really suggests where they fit in on the spectrum (as it were). That and hair, there are certain hairstyles which are usually a good indicator, such as the straight-up spiked hair (the 14 year old boy kind of spiked hair) or the dyke mullet, as it were.

Androgynous is a weird one though, because androgynous has multiple contexts, as it could refer to a butch woman or a feminine man, or it could be used in a somewhat different context as being distinct from those (as is potentially suggested in your differentiating between androgynous and butch vis-a-vis women).

Having said that, I think a lot of it is contrived anyhow, people trying to fit stereotypes (either stereotypes of women or stereotypes of lesbians) and what not. I'm rather skeptical of gender roles within gender roles.


Myself, I am rather a feminine one; I would base that upon attitude, personality, behaviour, and style. But I don't refer to myself as being a "femme," I don't feel the need to describe myself in such roles.

 

[sexy-girl]

Ok, I've read several definitions of butch, femme, androgynous, and many, many other labels on this particular spectrum, but I'm never sure exactly what they mean when real people use them. Are they generally used to describe appearance, attitude/roles, or both?

i think they're always specific to how the person uses them ... but i think it usually covers both attitude and appearance

How do you personally define butch, femme, and androgynous?

as above i always prefer to understand why the person is using the label rather than defining them myself

What would you identify as if asked where you fit on the butch-femme continuum? What are you basing that on (how you look, act, both, or other)?

it's something i prefer not to answer ... maybe because i don't feel i fit into any of them exactly ... but also because i don't want to give someone preconceptions ... i'm female and i'm gay and those are the only labels i use for myself

 

[Netzach]

I agree with what sexy-girl said about the roles. I personally consider myelf a flexible androgyne who has chosen to present hard femme at this time.

 

[SweetErika]

Thanks Equinoxe, sexy girl, and Netzach. I certainly don't mean to perpetuate labels or stereotypes...I'm just trying to learn and get an idea of what people may mean when they use one of the terms.

 

[Equinoxe]

Thanks Equinoxe, sexy girl, and Netzach. I certainly don't mean to perpetuate labels or stereotypes...I'm just trying to learn and get an idea of what people may mean when they use one of the terms.

I understand. They are genuinely difficult to understand, like most labels, as they may mean different things depending upon who is using them. Likewise, it's generally useful to know what people mean when they say something, but that does not imply perpetuating stereotypes or labels, just understanding the labels used by others.

 

[Regis2001]

I'm not a lady, but here are my thoughts:

Labels are fine. I can live with labels, as can most people. But there is one proviso: I want to choose the labels that are applied to me!

Butch: This means 'masculine'. And basically, that's it. It can be used to mean either appearance or behaviour, but is most commonly used in terms of appearance. For example, if a woman is a beer-swilling sexually predatory type who loves football, but is physically delicate, wears her hair long and wears skirts and dresses all the time, she probably wouldn't be called butch. Her behaviour is 'classically masculine', but her appearance is 'classically feminine'. It must also be pointed out that men can be butch as well, under roughly the same criteria.

Femme/Feminine: This applies to both a look and a mode of behaviour. The term 'femme' is almost always applied to feminine lesbians, and I can't recall hearing it outside this context. As for 'feminine', it can refer to a look - generally someone of either sex who is physically delicate and, for want of a better term, 'pretty'. Obviously this is open to interpretation, but I give as broad a general definition as I can.

Androgynous: A much, much simpler one. As dictionary.com has it, 'Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior.' It generally refers to appearance. I would mildly dispute this on a tecnicality: it is not being neither masculine or feminine, but both masculine and feminine. Just to a degree where neither of them are obviously dominant, and it is hard to tell on sight whether the person is in fact male or female.

For a good site, I refer you to www.ifas.org.au.

Have a nice day!

 

[BlueEyesInLevis]

I would say they are used to describe both appearance and attitude and in fact I would say that attitude is more important than what amounts to style.

There are certain style elements of what is classically "butch" that cross-over into other stylistic concerns (combat boots for instance can be punk, goth, rivethead, or butch).

Hence, I would say that there is a certain attitude and way in which a person carries herself that really suggests where they fit in on the spectrum (as it were). That and hair, there are certain hairstyles which are usually a good indicator, such as the straight-up spiked hair (the 14 year old boy kind of spiked hair) or the dyke mullet, as it were.

Androgynous is a weird one though, because androgynous has multiple contexts, as it could refer to a butch woman or a feminine man, or it could be used in a somewhat different context as being distinct from those (as is potentially suggested in your differentiating between androgynous and butch vis-a-vis women).

Having said that, I think a lot of it is contrived anyhow, people trying to fit stereotypes (either stereotypes of women or stereotypes of lesbians) and what not. I'm rather skeptical of gender roles within gender roles.


Myself, I am rather a feminine one; I would base that upon attitude, personality, behaviour, and style. But I don't refer to myself as being a "femme," I don't feel the need to describe myself in such roles.

Whats a "rivethead"?

 

[Equinoxe]

Whats a "rivethead"?

Rivethead is a term used to refer to fans of Industrial music (Throbbing Gristle, Skinny Puppy, etc.)

 

[SweetErika]

I'm not a lady, but here are my thoughts:

Labels are fine. I can live with labels, as can most people. But there is one proviso: I want to choose the labels that are applied to me!

Butch: This means 'masculine'. And basically, that's it. It can be used to mean either appearance or behaviour, but is most commonly used in terms of appearance. For example, if a woman is a beer-swilling sexually predatory type who loves football, but is physically delicate, wears her hair long and wears skirts and dresses all the time, she probably wouldn't be called butch. Her behaviour is 'classically masculine', but her appearance is 'classically feminine'. It must also be pointed out that men can be butch as well, under roughly the same criteria.

Femme/Feminine: This applies to both a look and a mode of behaviour. The term 'femme' is almost always applied to feminine lesbians, and I can't recall hearing it outside this context. As for 'feminine', it can refer to a look - generally someone of either sex who is physically delicate and, for want of a better term, 'pretty'. Obviously this is open to interpretation, but I give as broad a general definition as I can.

Androgynous: A much, much simpler one. As dictionary.com has it, 'Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior.' It generally refers to appearance. I would mildly dispute this on a tecnicality: it is not being neither masculine or feminine, but both masculine and feminine. Just to a degree where neither of them are obviously dominant, and it is hard to tell on sight whether the person is in fact male or female.

For a good site, I refer you to www.ifas.org.au.

Have a nice day!

Thanks, Regis. According to this test http://www.ifas.org.au/Androgynytest.html I'm androgynous personality wise.

 

[Regis2001]

Thanks, Regis. According to this test http://www.ifas.org.au/Androgynytest.html I'm androgynous personality wise.

Think nothing of it. Always glad to be of service.

Apparently I veer wildly between masculine and feminine. This makes a strange kind of sense.

Have a nice day!

 

[anne27]

Thanks, Regis. According to this test http://www.ifas.org.au/Androgynytest.html I'm androgynous personality wise.

Interesting test, SweetErika! Thanks for passing that one on.
I'm 'nearly feminine'. Ok, I guess I can live with that.