Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury...

[discreetplay]

I have been tossing something around in the void that is my brain. I have mulled it over enough that I think I am ready to debate or discuss the subject and I'm curious if anyone else feels the same--or if I'm just a freak.

I have heard from a number of people who have had affairs or done things that society has dubbed "wrong". Most have said they feel guilty about what they did. It seems a normal reaction. I have done similiar things though, after thinking them through at length, and have not felt any guilt at all.

It's not that I am incapable of guilt. There are things that I believe are morally wrong. Killing or stealing, for instance, are things that would make me feel guilty. But I know this, so I would never do those things. The only instances where I can remember feeling guilt in my life were events that happened by accident. I wouldn't ever do something intentionally that I know would make me feel guilty on the other end. It just doesn't make sense.

I'm not talking about feeling regret after you get caught. Or the paranoia of hoping not to get caught (which is something I don't feel either). I'm talking about actually knowing what you did was wrong, and feeling remorse whether anyone knows or not. This is something I have not experienced. And I believe it's because I think about everything I do so much, that I rationalize a justification for my actions beforehand. Therefore, post-action, I believe that what I did was acceptable.

I'm not really asking for analysis--although you may feel free. This just seems to be a view that I haven't seen yet and I'm wondering if there's anyone else out there who is capable of doing what most people consider immoral and not feeling guilty about it. Also I would like to know if it's for the same reason, or some other?

dp

 

[lady_jennaxx]

I, being the first jury member to speak out...

I think you hit the nail on the head when you mention rationalizing a justification for your actions prior to committing them. That would be a person's "escape hatch" so to speak. If you can justify your actions (no matter how much you have to contort what is "right" or "wrong" in your personal opinion) before doing them then it makes everything...WHEW....ok-- thereby eliminating the need for guilt. Even though I just paraphrased what you said in your post I felt the necessity of restating

Personally, even though I may not agree with someone's actions or (even more importantly) their justification for those actions, I must admit that people who can seemingly effectively eliminate guilt from their repertoire of morality very interesting. Finding a justification, personal or otherwise, to engage in behavior that is traditionally considered inappropriate is nothing new; perhaps being so up-front about it, is. For many people the thrill in exhibiting deviant behavior (sorry for the harsh word, dp) is knowing full well that it's wrong so if it can be rationalized into something "crisp and clean with no caffeine" then hey, it's not really so bad. Besides, bad = FUN.

I personally haven't had any success in trying to live my life guilt-free. I don't think guilt is always a bad thing if it keeps me from doing things that I know in my heart are wrong, but that's just me. You mention killing and stealing to be two things that you would feel guilty about. I think many of us (myself included) have much longer lists...

DP, it sounds that you are happy living your life that way and, if so, you're probably more content than many people I know. Good luck!

Oh and for the record.....you ARE a freak.

But you already knew that.

Lady Jenna

 

[SweetErika]

Very interesting issue. I have two questions:

-In addition to killing (I'm assuming murder for fun/power purposes, but correct me if I'm wrong) and stealing, what do you consider "wrong"? In other words, what's your definition of "wrong"?

-Prior to your rationalization and justification thought processes, do you feel what you are doing is wrong or bad in some way?

 

[discreetplay]

Re: I, being the first jury member to speak out...

Oh and for the record.....you ARE a freak.

And you, M'lady, are adorable. It's good to hear from you.

dp

 

[TempWife]

Amoral behaviour without remorse? People have different barometers of what is moral or not. If they dont consider the act immoral than rationalizing the action is easy, therefore no guilt.

Im a spontaneous person, once I weigh the pros and cons, decide on the rammifications, and figure out if the means justify the ends. Being a logical person, once I have decided to do something, moral or immoral, then there is no guilt.

 

[discreetplay]

Very interesting issue. I have two questions:

-In addition to killing (I'm assuming murder for fun/power purposes, but correct me if I'm wrong) and stealing, what do you consider "wrong"? In other words, what's your definition of "wrong"?

-Prior to your rationalization and justification thought processes, do you feel what you are doing is wrong or bad in some way?

My dear SweetErika,

Stealing and Killing were just examples. Please don't think that those are the only two on my list.

Your second question is an excellent one. A lot of things that we see other people do, we tend to label right or wrong without knowing anything about the situation. We are simply making a judgement call based on our learning, experience, feeling, etc... When you are the one in the same situation, however, the perspective seems to change. Sometimes it's still wrong. Other times it's right.

The things I have been dabbling in recently, not too long ago I would have believed them to be wrong--what's more, if I saw a good friend doing them I would try to talk some "sense" into him (because I would have felt that was the "right" thing to do).

Another interesting case would be that when I was really young I believed abortion would have been O.K. if one of my partners would have gotten pregnant. Years later, after I had kids and when it was no longer so inconvenient for me, any accidental pregnancy would have become another child of mine. I don't mean to start a political/religious debate on this sensitive issue, I'm just throwing out an example of the reverse. Something that was once right has now become wrong.

It's curious that I have lived my entire life by what I thought was "right". Most of us do. But my definition of "right" seems to change as I go through my life. I belive this happens to most of us, but as I tend to think things out to a ridiculous level it hasn't gone unnoticed in my life. While not everyone switches views on issues as big as cheating on your spouse or abortion, most of us do change perspective on things as we go through life. Whether because of personal experience, major life changes, introspection, etc... The more I am aware of how my view of "right and wrong" has changed, the less judgemental of others I have become, the more forgiving I tend to be and overall I seem to be more content with my life.

I believe CaLadyInRed69 stated that (and I'm paraphrasing here) there is no right or wrong, just different levels of acceptance. If I've misquoted, I apologize. That was, however, the general flavor of the statement and there's a lot of truth there. As I get older, I seem to see less and less "black and white" and much, much more "gray".

But then again, the eyesight does tend to get a little fuzzy with age--so maybe I'm just an old fool.

dp

 

[discreetplay]

TempWife,

Excellent summary. Logic has much to do with it for me as well.

dp

 

[discreetplay]

Re: I, being the first jury member to speak out...

Oh and for the record.....you ARE a freak.

"I bet you say that to all the boys."

--Meatloaf

 

[Cathleen]

Hello dp, welcome to Lit.

I am highly contemplative, there is no end to my thinking (a sometimes bad character trait). I am practical and analytical.

I agree with your statement that we become less black and white as we grow older ~ more experienced shall we say. We can find ourselves in so many situations that we relate to others and therefore become less judgemental of behaviors. I see it as healthy and mature.

If one doesn't learn that life is grey, there there are so many 'truths' to a situation then I wonder about their growth, their ability to accept the world as not perfect. I examine everything, when I was younger many opinions I had were stiff, unbending and now that I have experienced so much more, been in some of those situation, my perspective has changed.

A large part of life is perspective, gratefully so. We become more compassionate and can empathize with our fellow man. The human condition is ever changing ~ again, thank goodness.

There are behaviors that at twenty I would have never thought I would do or be capable of, but now the years have gone by and I can understand or see myself in similar situations. There is wisdom in experience, there are behaviors in my past that I'd rather not have done, but as I have learned more about myself, my behaviors, I understand. This isn't to say I condone or condem the behavior but that I understand it from a empathic eye.

Had some of my thoughts, opinions and behaviors not changed over the years I would miss out on one of the greatest gifts we have and that is to help one another, relate and share with each other. See the similarities rather then the differences.

I am sure I will continue to make some poor decisions about actions, but with the knowledge that I will learn no matter the outcome. I think perhaps we rationalize too much and not empathize enough.

If I find I have to rationalize a behavior or choice, there is a red flag for me. I should probably take more time to think and understand. We can rationalize damn near anything, but that isn't my method of life. I'd rather take that energy and put it to a different use, something more compassionate perhaps.

Life is in the intentions.

Very interesting discussion you have started, thank you. (You may regret it too, I never stop thinking..... ) Again, welcome to Lit.

Cate

 

[SweetErika]

<snip> Stealing and Killing were just examples. Please don't think that those are the only two on my list.

No, I certainly didn't think those were anything but two examples. I was just curious how you currently define "wrong" and hearing some examples of what you currently feel is wrong so I could better understand your viewpoint.

 

[discreetplay]

SweetErika,

Looking for a better understanding is very noble indeed and something I would classify as "right". I am hesitant, however to make a list of exactly what I feel is "right and/or wrong" for a couple of reasons.

First, my post isn't meant to debate what is right and wrong so much as it is to discuss the idea of the guilt that is or isn't attached to ones actions, and if one's ideas of "right and wrong" have much to do with that. I'm afraid a physical list of my beliefs would take much to long and would lead us down a path that can be better served in another thread.

Second, my ideas of "right and wrong" are subject to change. Maybe not overnight, but subject to change nonetheless. Hence this entire thread.

Hugs and Kisses,

dp

 

[discreetplay]

P.S. Mary Chapin Carpenter rocks.

 

[SweetErika]

SweetErika,

Looking for a better understanding is very noble indeed and something I would classify as "right". I am hesitant, however to make a list of exactly what I feel is "right and/or wrong" for a couple of reasons.

First, my post isn't meant to debate what is right and wrong so much as it is to discuss the idea of the guilt that is or isn't attached to ones actions, and if one's ideas of "right and wrong" have much to do with that. I'm afraid a physical list of my beliefs would take much to long and would lead us down a path that can be better served in another thread.

Second, my ideas of "right and wrong" are subject to change. Maybe not overnight, but subject to change nonetheless. Hence this entire thread.

Hugs and Kisses,

dp

Apologies...clarity and eloquence are not what I'm achieving today! LOL

Ok, so in a general sense, I try my best to live by the Golden Rule and define "wrong" as doing something with the intention to or knowingly cause harm or for selfish gain. Assault, cheating, driving drunk, and mean-spirited comments are a few examples. I also feel guilty when I don't have any intention to hurt someone, but that's more of a gray area with situations ranging from a car accident to making a comment that I didn't know would hurt a friend. Then again, I have a very strong internal locus of control and sense of personal responsibility, so I feel guilty for all sorts of things that are truly not my fault (but let's ignore that little personality flaw for now).

So...my question is, what is your definition of "wrong". I'm curious to know how it's different from mine, not in specific examples of things you do, but in a very general sense. In other words, how do you classify things into the categories of right and wrong or what general rule do you go by? For the sake of argument, let's assume they are pretty clear-cut and you're using your current state of mind (I agree there's a lot of overlap and opinions can, should, and do change over time).

Just ignore me if that doesn't make any sense or you don't care to answer.

 

[Cathleen]

Apologies...clarity and eloquence are not what I'm achieving today! LOL

Ok, so in a general sense, I try my best to live by the Golden Rule and define "wrong" as doing something with the intention to or knowingly cause harm or for selfish gain. Assault, cheating, driving drunk, and mean-spirited comments are a few examples. I also feel guilty when I don't have any intention to hurt someone, but that's more of a gray area with situations ranging from a car accident to making a comment that I didn't know would hurt a friend. Then again, I have a very strong internal locus of control and sense of personal responsibility, so I feel guilty for all sorts of things that are truly not my fault (but let's ignore that little personality flaw for now).

So...my question is, what is your definition of "wrong". I'm curious to know how it's different from mine, not in specific examples of things you do, but in a very general sense. In other words, how do you classify things into the categories of right and wrong or what general rule do you go by? For the sake of argument, let's assume they are pretty clear-cut and you're using your current state of mind (I agree there's a lot of overlap and opinions can, should, and do change over time).

Just ignore me if that doesn't make any sense or you don't care to answer.

Hi Erika, your statement about guilt is interesting to me. I, for obvious reasons of being human, understand guilt and don't like it, but what I wonder is, do you think you are feeling guilt when your intention was not to harm but did? Could it be that you are feeling the sting of knowing you caused a hurt in another? Guilt to me is more a feeling of culpability for intentional offenses.

When I think of guilt I think conscious, and that brings to mind a sense of intentional wrong doing. While 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' may be somewhat correct (lol) I do not see guilt as part of that equation.

I'm just wondering......

btw, Hi there!

 

[keesli moloko]

Hello all!

I am a guilt freak. If I sneeze and I think it might have that butterfly effect thing they talk about and start a tornado in China or something, I am guilty for the mere thought. Okay...that's going overboard, but you get the point.

I agree with SweetErika that some kind of definition of what "wrong" is would be helpful, discreetplay.

I also agree with SweetErika's Golden Rule policy, and I do try to live by those ideas she put forth. I fail frequently, and when I do I am cognizant of failing beforehand usually. I know that there will be guilt and lots of it, but still I go ahead with my dirty deeds, so to speak.

I cross the line of what I consider "wrong" all the time. I have high standards for myself...higher than what I expect from others. I used to satisfy my needs for any given moment and then feel guilt about my actions afterwards, even to this day. It's not a very fun or positive way to live, but it's how I was raised and it's very hard to give up that guilt, strangely enough.

I do agree that there is a grey area that includes more aspects of your life as you gain experience and grow older. I think that you need self-assurance (and a lack of regret for your actions) to be secure in your decisioins and therefore have no guilt afterwards.

In society our interconnections give us balance and meaning and the more we have the better society can function. Guilt is an adhesive to this process. The closer our ideas of what is right and wrong, the smoother our society runs. Therefore the deviants must be kept in line with guilt and regret, as well as shame. Conforming to society's ideas of right and wrong gains acceptance for each of us.
If you can rise above that then I suppose you have evolved in a way, but the rest of us will naturally want to "bring you down" to keep the fabric of society together and functioning normally.

Wow, can I babble or what? Sorry if I'm way out in left field for everyone...I'm a sociology nut.

Maybe this will foster some discussion.

Best of luck, dp!

keesli

 

[TempWife]

Bumped

Would love to see others weigh in on this issue. Come on you guys.

 

[TempWife]

opps double post.

 

[discreetplay]

A couple of thoughts:

First, I find this to be much more fascinating than the usuall prattle we engage ourselves in here. I hope you all do as well. Not that I don't enjoy being base and carnal, please don't misunderstand me. I just really enjoy a good exercise of the brain. Thank you to all who have chimed in and anyone who is to follow.

Secondly, for the sake of my dear SweetErika, I will attempt to define what I consider "wrong". Aside from the obvious acts like murder, stealing, destruction of property, false accusations, etc... I feel it is wrong to intentionally hurt someone without good reason. It is wrong to make someone feel bad just to make myself feel better or to take pleasure from someone else's pain. It is wrong to judge someone who's shoes I've never worn and even if I have worn them, I still would hesitate to judge. It is wrong to break my word without just provocation. It is wrong to force someone to be who they are not or don't want to be. It is wrong to always speak the truth, no matter who it may hurt. It is wrong to never speak the truth just to protect myself.

The above list is certainly not all-inclusive, but it should give you a general flavor of what I believe to be wrong. As with everything in life, there are exceptions to the rule. Occasionally it's right to do something I usually feel is wrong. From time to time, situations will arise that will call for me to choose between two or more options that I normally consider wrong. In these cases the right thing to do is pick what I feel is the lesser of the evils.

The more I try to quantify what I feel is right or wrong, the more I realize how fluid my definition is. Maybe this is what enables my lack of guilt. Maybe it's just a matter of convenience for me. Maybe the world is flat and the sun does rotate around the earth. Oops! A little sarcasm.

So here sit I, having just shared my beliefs with the entire community of Lit. I feel like a politcal candidate, just waiting for someone to use my words against me. The suspense is electric. I'm kinda getting a kick out of it.

Oh and by the way, it's good to see you again Keesli.

--bunny

 

[discreetplay]

Cathleen,

17,000+ posts? I'm in awe. It's good to see that after so many posts, you are still worth reading. Thank you for your thoughts.

--dp

 

[SweetErika]

Hi Erika, your statement about guilt is interesting to me. I, for obvious reasons of being human, understand guilt and don't like it, but what I wonder is, do you think you are feeling guilt when your intention was not to harm but did? Could it be that you are feeling the sting of knowing you caused a hurt in another? Guilt to me is more a feeling of culpability for intentional offenses.

When I think of guilt I think conscious, and that brings to mind a sense of intentional wrong doing. While 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' may be somewhat correct (lol) I do not see guilt as part of that equation.

I'm just wondering......

btw, Hi there!

Hi Cate! I certainly see your point (very thought provoking!), and you may be right, but whether what I did was intentional or not, I get the same feeling. When it's not intentional, I can rationalize it more easily, so it's usually a weaker feeling, but it's still there. Whether it's really guilt or not, I can't say, but it feels like guilt, primarily because I can't get away from the fact that I caused the pain. Perhaps extreme regret would be a better term though.

 

[discreetplay]

Guilt and regret are definitely two different things. Guilt infers accepted resposiblity. Regret is merely feeling sorry for something that happened. They do feel similiar, but I can most assuredly say that I have regretted the outcomes of actions I didn't feel guilty about.

 

[SweetErika]

A couple of thoughts:

First, I find this to be much more fascinating than the usuall prattle we engage ourselves in here. I hope you all do as well. Not that I don't enjoy being base and carnal, please don't misunderstand me. I just really enjoy a good exercise of the brain. Thank you to all who have chimed in and anyone who is to follow.

Secondly, for the sake of my dear SweetErika, I will attempt to define what I consider "wrong". Aside from the obvious acts like murder, stealing, destruction of property, false accusations, etc... I feel it is wrong to intentionally hurt someone without good reason. It is wrong to make someone feel bad just to make myself feel better or to take pleasure from someone else's pain. It is wrong to judge someone who's shoes I've never worn and even if I have worn them, I still would hesitate to judge. It is wrong to break my word without just provocation. It is wrong to force someone to be who they are not or don't want to be. It is wrong to always speak the truth, no matter who it may hurt. It is wrong to never speak the truth just to protect myself.

The above list is certainly not all-inclusive, but it should give you a general flavor of what I believe to be wrong. As with everything in life, there are exceptions to the rule. Occasionally it's right to do something I usually feel is wrong. From time to time, situations will arise that will call for me to choose between two or more options that I normally consider wrong. In these cases the right thing to do is pick what I feel is the lesser of the evils.

The more I try to quantify what I feel is right or wrong, the more I realize how fluid my definition is. Maybe this is what enables my lack of guilt. Maybe it's just a matter of convenience for me. Maybe the world is flat and the sun does rotate around the earth. Oops! A little sarcasm.

So here sit I, having just shared my beliefs with the entire community of Lit. I feel like a politcal candidate, just waiting for someone to use my words against me. The suspense is electric. I'm kinda getting a kick out of it.

Oh and by the way, it's good to see you again Keesli.

--bunny

Thank you for your definition...very helpful! If anyone ridicules or uses your beliefs against you (can't see why they would though), I'll feel very guilty! LOL

I think being reasonably flexible about a definition like this can be a good thing. It does help you be less judgmental and carry less guilt around.

My question for every one is, how do you know if you've taken rationalization and justification too far and you really are doing something that's wrong?

 

[SweetErika]

Guilt and regret are definitely two different things. Guilt infers accepted resposiblity. Regret is merely feeling sorry for something that happened. They do feel similiar, but I can most assuredly say that I have regretted the outcomes of actions I didn't feel guilty about.

I agree. Because I can usually find something I did wrong or could have done differently, I take responsibility for it, and thus feel guilty, even if it starts out as a feeling of regret. Yes, I'm working on this.

 

[discreetplay]

Thank you for your definition...very helpful! If anyone ridicules or uses your beliefs against you (can't see why they would though), I'll feel very guilty! LOL

Thanks for the laugh!

Actually, I'm not sure how you'd know if you've taken it too far. Unfortunately that verdict usually doesn't come in until it's too late. Maybe when a large enough majority of my acquaintances tells me I'm over the line. I guess when my wife gets the house, the car, the kids, child support and alimony... ...maybe then I'll think I went too far. Or maybe not.

 

[keesli moloko]

Wow. I guess this thread lost it's steam. I wondered where it went to.

discreetplay, don't you have a little jimminy cricket on your shoulder whispering to you when you've gone too far?

silly bunny.


take care,

keesli