Lack of Respect--When is it hot?

[RJMasters]

you said in part,

However what you espouse often and repeatedly is sexual gratification with dominant and submissive overtones without respect, to which I find more dangerious than a person who doesn't know which end of the whip to hold.

you seem to misapply the term 'espouse,' in that, aside from recommending you see a prodomme for educational purposes, i don't recall advocating anything here or recommending what would be good for someone to do.

this thread is descriptive of certain peoples experiences, these being SM-related, legal, consensual and, so far as I can tell, not dangerous to health, hence it's in accord with forum guidelines, and the objective of bringing to light a range of SM experiences.

Apparently I or nemo or someone, here, describe a bit of the real world you don't fancy or which doesn't accord with your espoused personal standards. I'd try to find someone to spank you for being cranky, but I'm not sure I could locate anyone suitably respectful.

The only person who needs a good whoopin around here is you pretty boy.

Carry on with your lack of respect thread.

 

[Kajira Callista]

wait wait!!!!!! i volunteer to take spankings for both of you!

 

[RJMasters]

wait wait!!!!!! i volunteer to take spankings for both of you!

 

[saw_man1]

Speaking only for myself

Pure,

Your original premise was shaped around these two opening lines:

Lack of Respect--When is it hot?

I mean *real* lack, not role played, simulated.

Any activity with a Prodomme/dom is of course real in the sense that it is actually happening. Someone is heaping mounds of disrespect on some sub somewhere. Even though that is happening in real time, I still consider that play. It is happening in the confines of a scene or a period of time and yes it can be hot. If it is a true pro then there is almost certainly no personal relationship there and it is the type of relationship that matters to me.
Bringing this down to a personal level, if a stranger or casual acquaintance shows disrespect to me I blow it off. They are not important to me and their opinion of me does not matter at all. I just don’t care what they think.
Disrespect outside of play, from someone I know is never allowable. I will not be a door mat in real life. Not for one minute.

Please understand I am not making rules for other people. Rather, I am speaking only for myself.

 

[Pure]

hi saw,

i think you are agreeing there may be real disrespect in a casual encounter, and (i think) conceding that some may find it 'hot.'

but you are saying that, an emotional level, the disrespect which would matter to you is from a friend or lover, and (I speculate) you would find that upsetting, not 'hot.'

this brings up an interesting and non rare type of 'case.' the perv acts, on the surface, in a way that keeps the respect of his spouse, BUT he still seeks out disrespect (e.g., from a pro). AND the avidity with which he does so, leads us to suspect that that DISrespect really does matter, a lot. call this the Hugh Grant syndrome.

 

[Pure]

if i may address a couple of misreadings:

just for the sake of those reading the thread:

rj You are advocating real disrespect by intent towards the person.

False; nothing was advocated except for your personal education. Quote me.

rj: However, I [rj] would only engage in those type of activities within a known box of consent. [...]

rj: [later on, same point]: I do see many however willing to experience "real objectification, humilation, and other activities asociated with a lack of respect or disresepct "within a box of consent".

Factitious contrast of rj's 'virtuous' position with mine or others' in this thread. Every episode described above is consensual.

rj: And that's where you are trying to draw distinction, by saying if there is consent, then it is not truly being disresepctful.

Not said. Quote me.

rj I don't see a bunch of people rallying under the banner of "real" disresepct as a choosen lifestyle.

C: Irrelevant; not the topic of the thread, which was a question, "When is a lack of respect, hot?"

 

[NemoAlia]

nemo, you asked if encounters with those who lack respect are _good for us._

maybe that's the same thing as suggesting that by reducing such events we could improve our lives.

i wouldn't know the answer because it's like wondering, "if I hadn't met my selfish inconsiderate 'ex' lover, would my life be better?"

....

provided we survive and continue (and stay out of jail), i don't think we should be too hard on oneselves for taking what we perceive to be deeply needed at a given time. perhaps it is, as Catalina considers, 'misguided' not to do, at a given time, what's the best for our life, overall. but that's an integral part of authentic living.

I don't really think it's a case of hypothetical hindsight, for me anyway. I know I'm fine now (having lived authentically thus far, etc.) but I'm scared that in a few years (fewer today, since my birthday was yesterday!) I'm going to be completely jaded, cynical, or whatever. That I might stop expecting respect in my personal relationships. That it will become okay for me to settle down with a Dom who really thinks I'm an ugly, stupid whore.

Or for me to settle down with a guy who is a tool.

 

[Netzach]

It's a niche thing.

Playing with humiliation with a person you know respects you overall isn't necessarily fake humiliation - it's humiliation in a controlled circumstance. Just as playing with pain with your partner isn't fake pain versus the kind you get at the dentist.

Most people are not going to eroticize the latter. A few will. But if you are addressing the majority, most won't.

 

[catalina_francisco]

The more this discussion goes and I look at various things, present and past in my life, the more certain I become that disrespect that is not agreed to or fits nicely within a play acted scene, the hotter it is. For instance, I had an old porn video from pre-F days which due to circumstances in those days (kids and life etc) I only ever skimmed through, no sound, just basically wank material to be blunt.

Recently we slipped it in the video player and watched it in parts, and yes, the double anal scene in it had definite appeal. That being said, in the actual video it is played out as part of an ongoing scene, appearing to be consensual...it was not until I had it on and allowed the tape to run past the end somewhat that I discovered there is a secret add on to the video which shows behind the scenes filming of each actress in the movie, shows moments throughout the filming, the director at work etc.

Interestingly it came to the girl who had done the double anal scene with 2 very well endowed men, and it showed a completely different perspective from the finished product. It appeared to be a spur of the moment decision of the director (not in English, so going on tone and words I do get) and the girl in question was far from consenting, begging not to go through with it but was held in position as someone applied more lubricant to her already full arse, then the second man forced his cock into her with the one already firmly implanted. She cried out in pain and continued to do so for some time, begging them to stop, and there was no sign of respect for her wishes or her, except from one guy (an assistant I presume as he was clothed) who held her shoulders and tried to ease her through the pain so it could continue as the director wanted and without further pressure and force being applied to her. He did seem to show concern for her dilemma, but the feeling was no-one was willing to respect her as she was a porn actress and would be forced to do as they wanted, not as she expected. Have to admit, the hot meter did go much higher than in the actual finished product and much of that was due to the disrespect displayed by the men surrounding her. Was interesting to say the least.

Catalina

 

[saw_man1]

hi saw,

i think you are agreeing there may be real disrespect in a casual encounter, and (i think) conceding that some may find it 'hot.'

but you are saying that, an emotional level, the disrespect which would matter to you is from a friend or lover, and (I speculate) you would find that upsetting, not 'hot.'

this brings up an interesting and non rare type of 'case.' the perv acts, on the surface, in a way that keeps the respect of his spouse, BUT he still seeks out disrespect (e.g., from a pro). AND the avidity with which he does so, leads us to suspect that that DISrespect really does matter, a lot. call this the Hugh Grant syndrome.

You summarized my thoughts and feelings perfectly.

That was also a very salient point concerning the Hugh Grant syndrome.

 

[Pure]

vicarious reaction?

hi catalina,

C: She cried out in pain and continued to do so for some time, begging them to stop, and there was no sign of respect for her wishes or her, except from one guy (an assistant I presume as he was clothed) who held her shoulders and tried to ease her through the pain so it could continue as the director wanted and without further pressure and force being applied to her. He did seem to show concern for her dilemma, but the feeling was no-one was willing to respect her as she was a porn actress and would be forced to do as they wanted, not as she expected. Have to admit, the hot meter did go much higher than in the actual finished product and much of that was due to the disrespect displayed by the men surrounding her.

P: The first possibility I think of is that there are movies about making movies, e.g., "Day for Night". The 'actors[within]' are very temperamental, and fight, sulk, make love off the-set-within-a-set. Of course, the real actors, very professional, are playing the parts of the temperamental 'actors][within].

In porn, I've seen this, where it's a film about a filmmaker guy going out an 'picking up' models for his movies. So one sees a beautiful girl at a bus stop. He comes up to her, chats, and induces her to come to his studio and make a 'bikini film'--which of course turns out to be porn, and she's expected to fuck him, and does, 'reluctantly' at first, etc. Of course the 'beautiful girl' is herself an actress. So she's playing the part of a 'naive' girl who's drawn into a porn movie.

However, let's assume it's real, that the modle indicated genuine reluctance and resistance; our reactions show how some of us are wired. Be it a documentary movie, real, true, written account, sometime explicit pain infliction or torture arouses some of us. This doesn't mean we'd inflict it, or irl stand by and watch actual torture and stroke off to it.

It's simply a mental-physical reaction, sometimes based on *imagining* oneself in the role of torturer or tortured. Again, the excitement of the imagining does not mean the person wants it, i.e., seeks it, in real life. (This is a variation of the old 'rape fantasy' issue.)

Ideally, of course, one can have one's cake and eat it too: If there actually is a movie about sexual violence, it's acted. No one is raped. The audience may react as they happen to, some turned off, some scared, some excited, some aroused. There are Lit stories of actual nonconsent, and readers may react in these ways. No one is harmed. (We are back to the 'effects of porn' and 'effects of violence' questions; but commonsense tells us that 999 of a 1000 people watching, do NOT go out and do anything illegal.)

Returning to the thread theme, all of the above points apply to fictional 'disrespect' scenes. In fiction movie or fiction writing, no one is actually disrespected. I think it can be said, that for those people, including myself, who sometimes react erotically to fictitious 'scenes of disrespect' --e.g., in a movie a master treats a slave like a worm---that is simply how we react, given our histories. The reaction is not itself evil. It's not to be moralized about. But each sensible person, as a separate matter considers, for real life encounters, the issues of legality, of consent and safety, and does not, in fact, go to a motorcycle gang and try to get them angry enough to disrespect/rape, or whatever.


Further, in relation to respect, no one has ended in the booby hatch because they were called a whore. In a sense, then, an episode of contained disrespect, without physical assault, is more likely (with certain qualifications) to safe, overall, given a reliable pro OR a trustworthy lover-partner. And, barring contexts of illegal acts like kidnapping or rape, if A calls B a whore, no law is broken. In that sense this thread is about something milder than many acts discussed elsewhere, like flogging, branding, etc. As Netzach has pointed out, with a pro or a SO., 1) one may control what's coming, and, I would add, 2) one may, with certain qualifications, rely on the other's controls.

Jeez, this is a ramble. But the points are important. Had I simply said, "Wow, that is HOT, Catalina," some mis-reader would surely say, "You are advocating double anal rape, pure, and I strongly condemn such dangerous advice."

 

[catalina_francisco]

LOL, this wasn't a movie about how a movie was made, it was definately shots of the making tacked on way after the real movie finished. Given it was an Eastern European production where I have heard the usual rules do not always apply, I don't believe she was expecting what happened or that she was acting her distress...yes, she commited to do a porn pic, but she was not expecting 2 huge cocks in her butt at the same time, and it does explain why during that scene in the pic, contrary to the rest of the pic where shots included facial expressions of the actresses and actors, this one scene was unusual in that it did not show that keeping the shots carefully where her reaction was not shown. If it had been a SM movie pehaps it would have been to their advantage to include the real reaction, but it was mainstream with implied consensual acts only portrayed.

Catalina

 

[mr_demon]

okay, Im new here but as always I like to voice my opinion.

I for one feel that any kink is valid (barring permanent physical or psychological damage). I agree with Cat (hope you don't mind me calling you that) in the sense that sometimes we just require a very dark outlet to needs that come from within. Soemthing that is so close the edge of our "normal" behaviour that in a sense it can be a liberating experience.

Now, whether or not respect is present, context is utterly necessary. I feel that objectification and humiliation of a woman is hot (hey Im a freak). I can quite easily use a woman for my needs without real concern for her. My mindset is simple, she is a toy for me to use for my pleasure, whether or not she gets her jollies is no concern of mine. But this said, there will always be a level of respect, be it for the fact that I can respect a person putting themselves in that position or simply the fact that I respect her condition of being a human (I don't know if this makes sense, in my mind it does but my mind is pretty warped).

In essence, there is a level of respect always present. But there is also a knowledge that a woman (in my case) enjoys what is being done to her on some level either physically or psychologically.

 

[Netzach]

A:
But this said, there will always be a level of respect, be it for the fact that I can respect a person putting themselves in that position

B:
In essence, there is a level of respect always present. But there is also a knowledge that a woman (in my case) enjoys what is being done to her on some level either physically or psychologically.

as to A: can you? Do you put yourself in this position too? If not, why not?

Can you really spit and shit all over someone and view them as 100 percent *your equal* in every regard as soon as you are done? Or are we all mired in some level of value judgement on what it means to want those things?

I don't have an answer on this in mind, just food for thought.

As to B: how do you know? I'm putting you on the spot, but we throw this around all the time.'

How do we know they love it?

 

[mr_demon]

as to A: can you? Do you put yourself in this position too? If not, why not?

Yes I can, I can respect someone who gives into what they need, if this is what gets them off.

No, I do not put myself in the position literally, why, simply because Im not into being on the recieving end, shrugs, what can I say, Im dominant thats explanation enough.

Can you really spit and shit all over someone and view them as 100 percent *your equal* in every regard as soon as you are done? Or are we all mired in some level of value judgement on what it means to want those things??

respecting someone, doesnt mean I consider them an equal, it just means I respect someone. Secondly, spit yes, shit umm no, thats a hard limit for me, I just find nothing erotic about shit, sides I cant go if someone is looking LOL.

How do we know they love it?

mmm, difficult one, Im not sure, maybe a previous conversation, I tend to talk a lot with the ones I play, discovering limits, besides if in the situation, safewords continue to apply and no it isnt lame, most people Ive done similar things with have been part of the lifestyle, they trust me enough not to damage them. another good indication is that they come back and you dont go to jail LOL

 

[Pure]

hi nemo,

I don't really think it's a case of hypothetical hindsight, for me anyway. I know I'm fine now (having lived authentically thus far, etc.) but I'm scared that in a few years (fewer today, since my birthday was yesterday!) I'm going to be completely jaded, cynical, or whatever. That I might stop expecting respect in my personal relationships. That it will become okay for me to settle down with a Dom who really thinks I'm an ugly, stupid whore.

Or for me to settle down with a guy who is a tool.

P: I think lot of us get more independent; that makes us a little more immune to some opinions of one's partner. At 20, one doesn't happily say, 'my partner isn't turned on by my legs, but s/he IS turned on by my butt.' 'Or my partner thinks my views on trees are nutty, but we agree on most religious topics.'

As far as 'ugly,' I think we become more nuanced, we say, "I'm sure my partner has the hots for Brad or Angelina as 'beautiful people,' but s/he knows I'm one fine lay and s/he's not going to do any better in that department. (And neither Brad nor Angelina even know s/he exists, as s/he is well aware.)"

Myself, I also get more behavioristic. I can't know a feeling, e.g respect or 'consideration,' but if she's 'there' are key times, picks up the ball in an emergency, etc., then that's great--her behavior is respectful and considerate.

As far as being a whore, I think that too has its nuances. As per a recent rr posting, he respects the person, but thinks, *as woman* she's a whore. Well, what does that mean? That she's avid for sex? that she'd screw the boss to get a promotion? If the latter, can I live with it? How about if she keeps her 'whoring' under strict control? How about if she loves only me, despite an occasional whoredom in her career pursuit?

However, nemo, I'd end by saying, that especially for women, there is a tendency to underestimate their 'power' in the partners 'market.
You can't have Brad, or James Spader or Donald Trump, but you probably have more choice than you think. And while you can't maximize every attribute (e.g. money, looks, intelligence, sexual athleticism), you can do extremely well in a limited number of them, according to what you decide is important.

 

[Pure]

good questions

As I read her, 1) N's first point is trying to get at 'respect', and the possibly glib line, "I can respect a person putting themselves in that position." She asked "Do you" (put yourself in that position)?
Answer, "No, I'm dominant."

My opinion is shaped by Sade's example-- not hesitation at all about being on the receiving end. We're back on the old 'essentializing' problem, "I'm a dom; dom's do this; that's how i am." It's something like the idea of 'blue blood'. this is what aristocrats have that renders them superior even if they do ignoble things.

Netzach's second question has to do with 2) "Can we piss and shit and stir avoid being mired in judgements."

I think the answer is 'probably not.' BUT, that's why the first question is important. The pissed on person is in some way an object of contempt. The only guaranteed way that the pisser is going to avoid swaggering around about his or her proud position, is having been the receiver, so to say, done what's inherently disgusting.

N's last question is 'how do we know they love it?" Again addressed to the possibly glib "I do my domly thing and and they love it, no matter how demeaning it looks."

I like part of Mr. D's answer, "they keep coming back" and "they don't file charges."

However, possibly N is getting at "What wouldn't you do?" It's well known that abused people 'come back.' Also the question I think of is, "If they love it, is it necessarily something non damaging?"

Again the answer has to be 'no.' So in essence, I think there is a top's or dom's responsibility to--in simple terms, not put the bottom into the ER.

A further issue, here, has got to be raised. It should not be the bottom's choice, i.e. to say 'do this.' The top is making a decision about how to (consensually) demean the bottom. There is perhaps a need assumed to be there. But IMO, the top is not asking "what would the bottom love?"-- that is to switch positions.

All of this is talking around a central question-- is what way and manner is 'disrespect' meted out? Is it global? In some way the answer is 'no', we do have a human being on our hands, with a right to live. But the devil is in the details--what is partial or episodic disrespect? After all, some things just don't work that way. There is no 'partially honest' person, and maybe there is no partially disgusting person either.








Mr. Demon said,
//A:
But this said, there will always be a level of respect, be it for the fact that I can respect a person putting themselves in that position

B:
In essence, there is a level of respect always present. But there is also a knowledge that a woman (in my case) enjoys what is being done to her on some level either physically or psychologically. //



Netzach asked as to A: can you? Do you put yourself in this position too? If not, why not?

Can you really spit and shit all over someone and view them as 100 percent *your equal* in every regard as soon as you are done? Or are we all mired in some level of value judgement on what it means to want those things?

I don't have an answer on this in mind, just food for thought.

As to B: how do you know? I'm putting you on the spot, but we throw this around all the time.'

How do we know they love it?

Mr. Demon replied

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netzach
as to A: can you? Do you put yourself in this position too? If not, why not?



Mr. D //Yes I can, I can respect someone who gives into what they need, if this is what gets them off.

No, I do not put myself in the position literally, why, simply because Im not into being on the recieving end, shrugs, what can I say, Im dominant thats explanation enough.//


Netzach Quote:
Can you really spit and shit all over someone and view them as 100 percent *your equal* in every regard as soon as you are done? Or are we all mired in some level of value judgement on what it means to want those things??



Mr. D //respecting someone, doesnt mean I consider them an equal, it just means I respect someone. Secondly, spit yes, shit umm no, thats a hard limit for me, I just find nothing erotic about shit, sides I cant go if someone is looking LOL.//



Netzach Quote:
How do we know they love it?



Mr. D //mmm, difficult one, Im not sure, maybe a previous conversation, I tend to talk a lot with the ones I play, discovering limits, besides if in the situation, safewords continue to apply and no it isnt lame, most people Ive done similar things with have been part of the lifestyle, they trust me enough not to damage them. another good indication is that they come back and you dont go to jail LOL//

 

[Netzach]

Yes I can, I can respect someone who gives into what they need, if this is what gets them off.

No, I do not put myself in the position literally, why, simply because Im not into being on the recieving end, shrugs, what can I say, Im dominant thats explanation enough.



respecting someone, doesnt mean I consider them an equal, it just means I respect someone. Secondly, spit yes, shit umm no, thats a hard limit for me, I just find nothing erotic about shit, sides I cant go if someone is looking LOL.







mmm, difficult one, Im not sure, maybe a previous conversation, I tend to talk a lot with the ones I play, discovering limits, besides if in the situation, safewords continue to apply and no it isnt lame, most people Ive done similar things with have been part of the lifestyle, they trust me enough not to damage them. another good indication is that they come back and you dont go to jail LOL

All fair enough, especially like the last bit. I'm not interrogating you, per se just food for thought on these issues.

 

[marieR19]

Hey everyone, I haven't been here in a long time (I don't even recognize most names!) but I want to put my 2 cents in here.

To me, lack of respect being hot or not pretty much depends on the situation. For instance, I loooove to fantasize about being dominated by a stranger who honestly has no respect (or very little) for me, who doesn't care about me. I haven't had the pleasure of actually experiancing it yet, but I'm 99% positive that I would love it.

However, it would totally turn me off, and offend me, if someone I know and am close to treated me without respect.

Heather

 

[Hester]

my last lover didn't respect me in the bedroom but was very respectful out of it. it worked really well for both of us.

 

[Pure]

question for Marie and others

OK, your SO respects you, but also has a dom-ish or sadistic side.

[You get off on DISrespect--let's say, a stranger treating you as a fucktoy.]

The SO, male or female, directs you, in front of them [SO], to service (or be serviced by) another, a third party, *whom your SO knows lacks any feeling of respect. This 'other' without exactly abusing you, will treat you in a way that does not show any particular respect, and likely tell you you are a lowlife without even the morals of a stray cat.

Let's say [if, for example you're a woman who is submitting] the other (third party) is to perform oral sex on you and make you come, and it will be a great orgasm because of the [other's expressed] disrespect.

In short you're showing yourself a bit of slut, and a disrespected one at that, in front on the one who respects you. (You may find it shameful that you can come with a disrespectful stranger just as well or even more strongly).

Let's say you are a male submitting to a female--she orders you to service the next few guys through the door, with b.j.s, for five cents, once she has ascertained they have contempt for such a bj-giving slut as you.

Thoughts? (Grace à Mlle Aury)

===
TO CLARIFY:

I was trying to put some ingredients from Hester and Marie together.

Suppose 'lack of respect is hot' for you BUT

You don't want your SO to have or show that lack.

So, the 'respectful SO' orders that you 'play' with a disrespectful person. That person might forcefully intercourse you, piss on you, or might just attempt to make you come one way or another (with a large half-rotten vegetable). Presumably all the while saying things to indicate disrespect like 'you're not bad as a street whore--a cock or cunt--but i wouldn't have you for more than an hr., no returns, because of your disgusting lack of any standards.'

And lets say that works. You come like a locomotive.

In front of the respectful SO.

To me that scene bespeaks 'sluttiness' (male or female)-- and the SO, for whatever reason has had you demonstrate that.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Personally I would love to see someone that I knew disrespected me licking me out at the request of a Dom. I would consider it an act of disrespect to use them for my pleasure, while obeying my partner and respecting him.

Or have I misunderstood you?

Velvet

 

[Pure]

to clarify

..... [incorporated in previous posting]

 

[mr_demon]

I did not feel interrogated at all Netzach, although the lights in the face were a bit uncomfortable,

I guess on this topic, it boils down in a way to how unconsensual can you consensually get. Ive met a number of women who had golden showers as a limit, but in a particularly strong humiliation play I have brought it up, being very obvious as to where I am going, giving them all the time in the world to scream "amber" or "crimson". If they havent, there is a tacit acceptance.

you can't really stop and ask, "do you mind if I piss on you after I've face fucked you, cause I think you might actually enjoy it?" that kinda has to be gleaned from previous interaction with the woman.

 

[marieR19]

Pure, those are very interesting thoughts there. And I think, at least for me, your scenerio would be dead-on. If that ever happened, I have a feeling (a strong feeling) that I'd absolutely love it and come probably harder then ever, but feel totally ashamed about my SO seeing it.


Heather