Kerry as traitor, aiding the communists

[Pure]

I heard this on the news--the Kerry Fonda link--, so I thought I'd start a thread on accusations against John Kerry.

Here's a neat site, mildly "right", which features a photo of Kerry in front of Viet Cong flag!

http://www.usvetdsp.com/jf_kerry.htm

{Viet Nam Veterans against John Kerry}

The following accompanies a doctored picture of Kerry in front of a Viet Cong flag. The doctoring is acnknowledged and said to be 'symbolic'.

[quote start]
About this photograph. The Viet Cong flag was added as a back drop to J.F. Kerry to symbolize the aid and comfort he gave Vietnam's "revolutionary Communists" with his high profile participation in Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) demonstrations.

U.S. Veteran Dispatch -- On the campaign trail, Sen. John Forbes Kerry regularly mentions his Vietnam War combat experience, during which he received three Purple Hearts, the Silver Star and Bronze Star.

However, the Massachusetts Democrat doesn't like to talk much about how he received the awards or the time after he returned home when he was rubbing shoulders with Hanoi Jane Fonda (view article and pictures) as a much-celebrated organizer for Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), one of America's most radical pro-communist groups. [end]

 

[kellycummings]

Just my opinion but I think veterans have more of a right to protest than anyone else. After all, they earned it. Many vets protested Vietnam when they came home and I find it hard to blame them for it.
As this point in time I have no idea if I will vote for Kerry or not but I do know that I won't hold that against him.

 

[Dirt Man]

No person on earth is more violently opposed to war than a combat solier, especially a veteran of war. As they are the ones who end up fighting, and dying in it.

Civilians have no idea what it is like to be on the verge of pissing your pants every second that you are in a warzone because you are scared for your life, and health constantly. Bravery has nothing to do with being scared to death all the time. People don't get medals for bravery because they were scared shitless, but in spite of it. They were just too damn pissed off at the enemy to care about being frightened out of their wits anymore.

In war you learn to kill yourself before the enemy does it, and if by chance you survive it you live with the guilt of surviving it for the rest of your life. And yes, I am a Vietnam Veteran. Am I peaved at George for not serving his country over there? Nope. Am I pissed at those who fled to Canada, and were later forgiven, and allowed to return? Nope. When they fled they never thought that they'd be allowed back. That takes guts too.

But to be honest, in all of the world, there is nobody I trust more than those that I shared time with in mortal combat. And no, I'm not talking about some damn fantasy game either.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

 

[The_Darkness]

I couldn't agree more with DM here. I've never served in the military (bad knees, bad shoulders, crappy ankles) but I have lots of friends who did, I have relatives who did, and, well hell, almost all of us know someone who served in Veitnam.

I have the utmost respect for veterans. They went through shit that I wouldn't wish upon anyone. So what if Kerry refuses to talk about his service. He probably did some very very bad things to people. I have uncles and cousins who refuse to talk about the time from when they got on the plane to go overseas until the second the were safely back on American soil. I don't blame Kerry one bit. The man has 3 Purple Hearts! He was seriously injured in 3 separate combats! And he lived! Hell, I'd almost vote for him out of respect for his toughness alone!

I love my country. I would do almost anything for it. That anything does include getting the head of the Texas oil agency the hell out of office the November. It's amazing the technology we *could* have if the oil magnates hadn't bought up the copywrites and then sat on them. Absolutely amazing. Having a President who makes decisions specifially to help them at the cost of the majority is not so cool.

Kerry is (from what I can sort out of the media) one of the best cadidates we've had for President since Reagan. Clinton looked bad, but he turned out okay....except for the whole boffing the interns thing....

 

[Colleen Thomas]

In todays age of instant information it's really amazing anyone sets themself up for the scrutiny running for prsident involves.

-Colly

 

[The_Darkness]

It isn't even that so much...it's that we believe what we read, see, and hear so readily.

It's like the kid in the toy vending machine/crane game thing. CNN and Fox News had that splashed all over as being legit. There is no way in hell that that kid climbed in there. But, we saw a picture, we read a story, the general populace bought it.

"What the eyes see and the hears hear, the mind believes." - John Travolta's character in Swordfish.

 

[kellycummings]

It isn't even that so much...it's that we believe what we read, see, and hear so readily.

I have to agree. I was reading the story about Kerry on cnn.com and it all hinged on a picture of him at a protest 30 years ago that Jane Fonda also happened to attend. She even said that she doesn't remember him. It's just dirty politics as usual. All sides do it. I think it's wrong to persecute a man because he was exercising his right of free speech and peaceful assembly though. Remember Ron Kovic (Born on the Fourth of July)? I don't hear anyone complaining about his protests of the war.
It would be nice if politicians stuck to the issues but it's doubtful that that will ever happen.

 

[Pure]

A picture **of Kerry sitting right behind Jane Fonda (Hanoi Jane, as the right calls her), at a 1970s antiwar rally, is on the front page of a Washington DC paper today.

Let's see; furor over a boob; investigations of abortions; Kerry smear, 'president's men' in front of grand jury over CIA leak... things are going to be interesting!!!

**Added: perhaps doctored, like the one with the Viet Cong flag behind him.

 

[Guest]

 

[shereads]

This attack on Kerry's war record based on his attendance at anti-war rallies after he won medals in Vietnam is so pathetic, it has to backfire on the Republican party. A party leader is quoted in today's Washington Post online saying the picture of Kerry "with jane fonda" makes him sick.

No, I don't think "both sides do it" is applicable in this case. The issue of GWB's presence at his National Guard post for months before his discharge wasn't made a significant issue - despite his party's constant ragging on Clinton's "draft dodger" status - until he began to market himself as a military man.

The news media could have made it an issue when he made his famous aircraft carrier landing to welcome the troops back from the Gulf last year, but everyone was so caught up in Patriotism after our so-called victory in Iraq that instead, he gained the status of a war hero in many people's minds just by virtue of the fact that they saw him in uniform flying a fighter aircraft.

His pilot training as a Guardsman cost taxpayers $1.5 million, and when it was over with, he disappeared. That he has the gall to authorize this damned limited-editon G.I. Joe with his likeness, wearing the uniform of a naval aviator, is an insult to those who used that skill as it was meant to be.

Basically, GWB used the National Guard to avoid service in a war he favored; as a resume-builder; and for free flying lessons. For a few thousand dollars, he could have achieved a pilot's license like everybody else who wants to learn to fly but doesn't want to serve in the military: in a Cessna at his local airport.

But that wouldn't have kept his hypocritical ass out of Vietnam. He sure as hell couldn't say he was going to Oxford on a full scholarship; they don't give those to cheerleaders.

"Both sides" could have made an issue of the published but lightly hyped fact that the carrier Bush landed on last year was ordered to delay its return so the president could have that photo op. It was scheduled to arrive in the U.S. fully half a day sooner, but it needed to be a certain distance from port in order to justify flying out to greet it, instead of welcoming the troops when they arrived.

By keeping hands-off on that part of the story, the supposedly liberal media allowed Bush to look like a veteran who couldn't wait to greet his returning brothers in arms.

Isn't it ironic that he was actually keeping them apart from their families so he could look good?

What can we expect from the party that destroyed the career of a medaled veteran by smearing him as "soft" on the war on terrorism, so they could take his Senate seat.

I hope to God people will be angry that they're trying to do that to John Kerry now. But I doubt it.



"I've been to war and I've raised twins; raising twins is harder."
--Governor George W. Bush

 

[oggbashan]

Let's see; furor over a boob; investigations of abortions; Kerry smear, 'president's men' in front of grand jury over CIA leak... things are going to be interesting!!!

Not this side of the pond. All those issues are irrelevant to our electors.

WMDs are an issue. Did Saddam return them to us for a refund?
Or was it to the French?

Og

 

[shereads]

The Boston Globe's Walter V. Robinson and Francie Latour write: "President Bush's August 1972 suspension from flight status in the Texas Air National Guard -- triggered by his failure to take a required annual flight physical -- should have prompted an investigation by his commander, a written acknowledgement by Bush, and perhaps a written report to senior Air Force officials, according to Air Force regulations in effect at the time."

The Globe interviewed Brig. Gen. David L. McGinnis, a former top aide to the assistant secretary of defense for reserve affairs, who said he "thought it possible that Bush's superiors considered him a liability, so they decided 'to get him off the books, make his father happy, and hope no one would notice.'

{this is an excerpt from the "White House Briefing" opinion colunmn in today's Washington Post online}

For three days now, one of the "most e-mailed" articles on washingtonpost.com has been an op-ed by Richard Cohen, in which he describes his own experience avoiding the draft by joining the Guard, dropping from sight and getting an honorable discharge.

"It hardly matters what Bush did or did not do back in 1972. He is not the man now he was then -- that by his own admission," Cohen writes. "All that really matters is how one accounts for what one did. Do you tell the truth (which Clinton did not)? Or do you do what I think Bush has been doing, which is making his National Guard service into something it was not? In his case, it was a rich kid's way around the draft. . . .

"When Bush attempts to drape the flag of today's Guard over the one he was in so long ago, when he warns his critics to remember that 'there are a lot of really fine people who have served in the National Guard and who are serving in the National Guard today in Iraq,' then he is doing now what he was doing then: hiding behind the ones who were really doing the fighting. It's about time he grew up."

 

[The_Darkness]

The news media could have made it an issue when he made his famous aircraft carrier landing to welcome the troops back from the Gulf last year, but everyone was so caught up in Patriotism after our so-called victory in Iraq that instead, he gained the status of a war hero in many people's minds just by virtue of the fact that they saw him in uniform flying a fighter aircraft.

I'm really not sure where you're from, but I'd just like to clarify that we chastized the shit out of Bush for that little stunt where I'm from. It was a publicity issue, we saw through it, and we drug him down even more for it. It was nice of him to do it for the troops, it was a moral booster, and it served its purpose for that manner.

I'd just like to clarify that I love my country, I love living in the United States, but I think our president is a God-damned moron.

I can't wait for his party to jump all over Kerry (or whomever...probably Kerry) and have it blow up in their face.

And as for pictures of Jane Fonda and Kerry together? Big deal! There's pictures of Rumsfeld and Saddam together, does that mean we supported Iraq's military? Okay that was a bad example....but yeah....pictures are pictures.

 

[shereads]

And as for pictures of Jane Fonda and Kerry together? Big deal! There's pictures of Rumsfeld and Saddam together, does that mean we supported Iraq's military? Okay that was a bad example....but yeah....pictures are pictures.

But the real issue is, what if Jane Fonda and Kerry were having an affair and this photo of them in the same crowd at a demonstration is the evidence?



If they weren't having an affair and/or spying for the communists, why have they been so careful all these years to avoid being seen together?

 

[Guest]

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Being seen in the same state with Jane Fonda is likely enough to upset a lot of vets. An email letter circulated a year or so ago that actually accuses her of being complictous in the deaths of us POWs. According to the story she was at the prison to meet with some of them prisoners for PR shots. Some of the men handed her small slips of paper with their names and other information in the hopes she could let thier families know they were alive. She handed them over to the camp commander before leaving and those men were dragged off and never seen again.

True or not, the fact that such a letter was widely circulated, I got copies from over 30 vets whom I correspond with at least semi regularly, shows the level of contempt she is held in. If the picture shows them in close proximity then you can bet people will get some political mileage out of it.

-Colly

 

[Pure]

Colly reporting on an email about Jane Fonda,

//She[the writer says] handed them over to the camp commander before leaving and those men were dragged off and never seen again.

True or not, the fact that such a letter was widely circulated, I got copies from over 30 vets whom I correspond with at least semi regularly, shows the level of contempt she is held in.//

Yes, I saw something like that recently. Besides contempt it shows that a certain type of 'patriot' doesn't care about truth; if 'he' weren't dangerous (something of a fascist), I'd say 'he' is worthy of contempt.

The 'patriots' do not stop with Fonda but hate all high profile antiwar folks, like Spock, Sloan Coffin. Even-- or esp. --Kerry. It will be interesting to see the mudslinging of this campaign!

 

[OldnotDead]

This attack on Kerry's war record based on his attendance at anti-war rallies after he won medals in Vietnam is so pathetic, it has to backfire on the Republican party. A party leader is quoted in today's Washington Post online saying the picture of Kerry "with jane fonda" makes him sick.

I think it's a question of 'reaping what you sow'. see below

No, I don't think "both sides do it" is applicable in this case. The issue of GWB's presence at his National Guard post for months before his discharge wasn't made a significant issue - despite his party's constant ragging on Clinton's "draft dodger" status - until he began to market himself as a military man.

Terry MacCauliffe has not given us the benefit of 'why' he brought this up, but the whole comparison of Kerry and Bush during Vietnam was HIS idea. I think you may be right, that the Democrats were trying to undermine the success that Bush has had in his image as Commander in Chief. MacCauliffe also has a problem with Kerry's record on support for the military while a Senator. My own interpretation is that it is typical 'deflection' politics. Creating an issue where one didn't exist.

The news media could have made it an issue when he made his famous aircraft carrier landing to welcome the troops back from the Gulf last year, but everyone was so caught up in Patriotism after our so-called victory in Iraq that instead, he gained the status of a war hero in many people's minds just by virtue of the fact that they saw him in uniform flying a fighter aircraft.

His Guard service record had been well documented during both his Presidential and Gubernatorial campaigns and most people took it for what it was: one of the legal options open to college graduates that did not want to get drafted.

His pilot training as a Guardsman cost taxpayers $1.5 million, and when it was over with, he disappeared. That he has the gall to authorize this damned limited-editon G.I. Joe with his likeness, wearing the uniform of a naval aviator, is an insult to those who used that skill as it was meant to be.

Well, I'm not sure about the 'insult' part. He seems to be fairly popular with officers and enlisted men as well. But like a lot of items, it's subject to the whims of capitalism and if it's popular, you will find it everywhere. If it's not, . . . can you say "Billy Beer?"

Basically, GWB used the National Guard to avoid service in a war he favored; as a resume-builder; and for free flying lessons. For a few thousand dollars, he could have achieved a pilot's license like everybody else who wants to learn to fly but doesn't want to serve in the military: in a Cessna at his local airport.

I'm not sure of your age and experience, Sher, but for those who graduated in '68 (which was HS for me) as soon as you lost your deferral status, the draft notice was probably only months away. In my own town it could happen as fast as 30 days. All of my HS classmates that did not go on to college had to make a decision by graduation or risk bein called up. The Guard was one of the options, but so was enlisting in one of the other services.

I think if GWB wanted the license, he could have afforded it, but going to flying school did not get you a deferral.

But that wouldn't have kept his hypocritical ass out of Vietnam. He sure as hell couldn't say he was going to Oxford on a full scholarship; they don't give those to cheerleaders.

No, they don't, but getting accepted to flight school is no easy task. I'm pretty proud of the fact that I passed both the written and 'spatial' test and that if it hadn't been for a virus induced defect, I could have done something similar to GWB. I qualified later and there were more openings and fewer applicants. Certainly no where near as competitive as Rhoads Scholarships, but not exactly a walk in the park either. At the time he qualified, the Guard lists for aviators were pretty short in our state and it was quite competitive.

If you wish to counter that Daddy probably pulled some strings, I would not bother to argue. I heard some similar stories in my own home town. Back then it was not unheard of, so might be true.

"Both sides" could have made an issue of the published but lightly hyped fact that the carrier Bush landed on last year was ordered to delay its return so the president could have that photo op. It was scheduled to arrive in the U.S. fully half a day sooner, but it needed to be a certain distance from port in order to justify flying out to greet it, instead of welcoming the troops when they arrived.

By keeping hands-off on that part of the story, the supposedly liberal media allowed Bush to look like a veteran who couldn't wait to greet his returning brothers in arms.

Isn't it ironic that he was actually keeping them apart from their families so he could look good?

Actually, quite a few stories were both aired and written about it. The problem the liberal press had, was that they couldn't really find any of the sailors, airmen or their families who would complain about it. They all seemed so pleased that he was going to their ship, that they didn't mind the extra day.

There was also a fair amount of press about the 'grandstanding nature' of the event. Like a lot of stories, particularly with TV, there wasn't a lot of interest and the polls at the time did not have a lot of negative support for them to keep yakking about it. I'm sure it will be brought back up now that there is a larger and more organized anti- Bush movement.

And I want to insert two technical notes concerning your comments. 1) He did not fly on a fighter. Aviators are very careful to distinguish between fighter pilots and 'attack pukes'. fighters attack other planes. Attack aircraft do bombing and other ground support. Bush flew in on what is a converted Vietnam era A-6 attack aircraft that is now designated an EA-6B. Used for electronic surveillance, communications and observation roles, it's the only carrier equipped single pilot airplane that has a version with four seats so that he could be accompanied by part of his Secret Service detail.

2) All carriers lose the ability to land and launch aircraft when in port. they depend on the 'wind' across the deck for lift to the aircraft. so they need to be far enough from shore to be going at cruising speed and also headed into the wind. Prior to a carrier coming to port, all the planes are launched and landed at a nearby Naval Air Base because they are absolutely useless if left on board.

There is no doubt in my mind that his visiting and landing were part stunt, part 'rah rah' and part just plain 'grandstanding'. but as I've alluded before, if I found myself CIC and had half an excuse, I'd go get myself a tailhook club membership.

What can we expect from the party that destroyed the career of a medaled veteran by smearing him as "soft" on the war on terrorism, so they could take his Senate seat.

It's called 'taking advantage', Sher. All part of the nasty game of politics. Georgia was a close race and the competition saw an opportunity to strike. It perturbs me, personally, that anyone ELECTED to office should ever think of it as a 'career'. I think this is one of our bigger problems that we have yet to figure out how to solve.

The Dems led by MacCauliffe are trying to get some traction on the Guard story. Does what GWB did over 30 years ago really matter? If his service record were like his father's would that change your hatred of him? I don't think so. Should Kerry get a 'pass' on his votes against defense spending because of his war record?

In a perfect world, I would love to see this election sorted out with much more discussion about the current economy, current defense situation and current budget. But the reality is that right now the polls favor the President so the Dems need to deflect the rhetoric elsewhere. If the numbers switch, I'm sure the 'publicans will do the same.

I hope to God people will be angry that they're trying to do that to John Kerry now. But I doubt it.

The truth is, the Dems are angry about that. The 'publicans are angry about the Guard story. I'm always amazed at the 'surprise' fiegned about 'negative' campaigning. There has NEVER been a positive campaign waged by anyone that is behind in the polls. Positive only campaigning is a luxury that is only afforded by those that have comfotable leads.

What's going to REALLY make this whole race interesting is how things play out WITHIN the Democratic Party. Six months ago, they didn't think they could beat Bush. Now there are some polls that show him vulnerable. It's given them hope and mobilised a lot of 'fence sitters' that were willing to wait for 2008.

With a close race the negative rhetoric gets turned up very loud. Personally, I would prefer to stick with the present. I don't exactly want to discuss with my kids what *I* was doing in 1970. I had a good time, but I don't want that year to be my example for them <G> .

 

[The_Darkness]

Frankly, I don't see how any responcible voter with a clear handle on ethics could vote for Bush. I didn't understand it in 2000, I don't understand it now, I probably won't understand it in another 40 years (provided I live to see 65)

I don't know Kerry or Bush personally. From what I've seen of Bush when he's not on the clock (so to speak) I'd probably not hate him as much as I do ethically, ideologically, morally, or politically. I seem to agree a lot more with Kerry than I do with Bush.

Personally, I think I should run for politics...except I'm too honest and too blunt. The phrase "Subtle as a Chainsaw and Twice as deadly" has been applied to me many many times by many many people: not a good thing when getting into a profession where your lips become attached to someone else's ass all day everyday.

Hey...someone needs to get MathGirl on that one....Simiae Analosculari....Ass-Kissing Monkey. I'm sure there's enough shots of GeeDubya floating around for that

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Frankly, I don't see how any responcible voter with a clear handle on ethics could vote for Bush. I didn't understand it in 2000, I don't understand it now, I probably won't understand it in another 40 years (provided I live to see 65)

I don't know Kerry or Bush personally. From what I've seen of Bush when he's not on the clock (so to speak) I'd probably not hate him as much as I do ethically, ideologically, morally, or politically. I seem to agree a lot more with Kerry than I do with Bush.

I hate to point this out, but conservative republicans felt exactly the same about Bill Clinton. Not seeing how the voting public could support Bush is seriously short sighted and obviously affected by your personal dislike of him.

-Colly

 

[thenry]

Speaking of accusations,

a "major story" is supposed to be breaking tomorrow about Kerry's alleged infidelity.

Drudge Report

Apparently something about it has been known, and it's the reason Dean decided not to drop from the race.

 

[The_Darkness]

I hate to point this out, but conservative republicans felt exactly the same about Bill Clinton. Not seeing how the voting public could support Bush is seriously short sighted and obviously affected by your personal dislike of him.

Actually, it comes from being a lower-income bracket college student who doesn't have the glory of having scholarships. I drive a car that's older than dirt and GW's policies toward oil have not been kind to my pocket book. It comes from being a responcible news hound and realizing that most of Bush's "New Programs" were things that Clinton wanted but the Republican congress shot down.

I also don't like Bush's war powers act shit that he tried to enact after Sept 11th. Thank god Congress stepped up nearly uniformly and told the President no, he cannot increase his power under the war powers act. In it were several provisions that linked together with older laws and basically would have made elections unnecessary in a time of war. Bush is a weasel, but really, it's his cabinet that I disdain. His cabinet is, because of their past actions, why we're at war with the Taliban, Iraq, and why we have troops scattered all over creation, many of them getting shot at, wounded, or killed, with little or no awareness on the part of American public

The Freedom of Information Act did really shitty things for my opinion of the whole current administration. Most of these guys should be drug out in the street and beaten bloody, and shot into space.

This is not to say that I know people more suited for the job. This is not to say that I could do it better myself, and this is not to say that I would have voted for Gore last election year, but I sure as hell wasn't going to vote for Bush.

Neither will I this year.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Actually, it comes from being a lower-income bracket college student who doesn't have the glory of having scholarships. I drive a car that's older than dirt and GW's policies toward oil have not been kind to my pocket book. It comes from being a responcible news hound and realizing that most of Bush's "New Programs" were things that Clinton wanted but the Republican congress shot down.

I also don't like Bush's war powers act shit that he tried to enact after Sept 11th. Thank god Congress stepped up nearly uniformly and told the President no, he cannot increase his power under the war powers act. In it were several provisions that linked together with older laws and basically would have made elections unnecessary in a time of war. Bush is a weasel, but really, it's his cabinet that I disdain. His cabinet is, because of their past actions, why we're at war with the Taliban, Iraq, and why we have troops scattered all over creation, many of them getting shot at, wounded, or killed, with little or no awareness on the part of American public

The Freedom of Information Act did really shitty things for my opinion of the whole current administration. Most of these guys should be drug out in the street and beaten bloody, and shot into space.

This is not to say that I know people more suited for the job. This is not to say that I could do it better myself, and this is not to say that I would have voted for Gore last election year, but I sure as hell wasn't going to vote for Bush.

Neither will I this year.

Ah, College student. Say no more.

-Colly

 

[minsue]

Ah, College student. Say no more.

-Colly

Meow!





- Mindy, amused

 

[The_Darkness]

Yeah. Tuition doubling because the Fed cut money to Universities and money to the states, which were kind enough to pass it down to the Universities kinda sucked a bit much.