Katrina Disaster

[cantdog]

Of course it's not directly useful for a guy in a suit to tour a disaster. I can understand that, Alex, that isn't hard. But leaders lead. If they don't, they aren't in it. If it is indeed security concerns which prevents his showing up, then his security people are giving him poor advice.

It's not an either-or thing. Sure, there are many hundreds of things the office can do which will be much more valuable on the ground. He can do them and act like a leader at the same time. That's what the staff is for.

It is always more secure to keep him in a box, but a President is a citizen. He's not a king, not a Fuhrer, just a citizen like the rest of us. He must endure contact with other citizens from time to time.

He will travel with clean water, clean food, health care, even air conditioning, dude. That's the sort of 'danger' he would face there. Al Qaeda didn't get there first to set up an ambush, you know. Security concerns have to yield to leadership concerns. The secret service will be along, and they will bring their own support, they got lots of funding these days. I daresay the burden of their presence won't interfere to any material degree with the rescue and evacuation efforts, the engineering efforts, the food and water and hospital efforts. The objections you make are piddling.

Leadership is either in your nature or it isn't. I can't go along with people blaming George for this, but I can't buy the huge security concerns either. I just think he and his office lack the impulse for doing this.

 

[Alex756]

I was amazed at the vitriol poured on the heads of looters. The footage they were vituperating over was taken at a frozen foods place, and the commentators decried the utter depravity of people who would take advantage in a situation like this one.

Sure, it's theft. Sure, the thawing packages of food are not their property. If everything you have is gone, and you have dependents to feed, and there's a huge frozen-food storehouse nearby, especially with no power, how immoral is it to go get some damn food? Let the talking heads try living in that situation.

On this part I could not agree more. People need to eat, in my opinion the people breaking into a winn dixie or whatever and passing out bread and whatnot to crowds waiting outside are doing what the floodwaters are preventing the aid organizations from doing. Stealing a TV, thats differant, but to the people stealing food, I can just hope no one gets hurt doing it and the stores have enough in them to be stolen until everyone can be evacuated. The people screaming about how horrible people are to steal food aren't the ones with families without food and water.

-Alex

 

[Alex756]

Of course it's not directly useful for a guy in a suit to tour a disaster. I can understand that, Alex, that isn't hard. But leaders lead. If they don't, they aren't in it. If it is indeed security concerns which prevents his showing up, then his security people are giving him poor advice.

It's not an either-or thing. Sure, there are many hundreds of things the office can do which will be much more valuable on the ground. He can do them and act like a leader at the same time. That's what the staff is for.

It is always more secure to keep him in a box, but a President is a citizen. He's not a king, not a Fuhrer, just a citizen like the rest of us. He must endure contact with other citizens from time to time.

He will travel with clean water, clean food, health care, even air conditioning, dude. That's the sort of 'danger' he would face there. Al Qaeda didn't get there first to set up an ambush, you know. Security concerns have to yield to leadership concerns. The secret service will be along, and they will bring their own support, they got lots of funding these days. I daresay the burden of their presence won't interfere to any material degree with the rescue and evacuation efforts, the engineering efforts, the food and water and hospital efforts. The objections you make are piddling.

Leadership is either in your nature or it isn't. I can't go along with people blaming George for this, but I can't buy the huge security concerns either. I just think he and his office lack the impulse for doing this.

I don't think its appropriate yet and even, even a slight burden when the people there are stretched so tight is not in my mind 'piddling' but whatever. I am simply stating it is too early into the disaster for him to take himself and his entourage there. Areas have to be secured before he can go wandering through them because there is a chance some crack pot with take a pot shot, I am not so silusional to think Al Qaeda or whatnot has some elaborate plot.

I don't think that his presence there would make a damn bit of difference to 99% of the people affected.

-Alex

 

[Extreme Bohunk]

From what I read, W had to cut his vacation short to deal w/ the disaster.

I also remember seeing a clip of him at his ranch (on vacation) saying how much
he likes to clear brush. Even a token appearance on his part, perhaps even rolling
up his sleeves and grabbing a chainsaw for 5 minutes, would give some indication
that he actually gives a rat's ass.

 

[LadyJeanne]

I don't think its appropriate yet and even, even a slight burden when the people there are stretched so tight is not in my mind 'piddling' but whatever. I am simply stating it is too early into the disaster for him to take himself and his entourage there. Areas have to be secured before he can go wandering through them because there is a chance some crack pot with take a pot shot, I am not so silusional to think Al Qaeda or whatnot has some elaborate plot.

I don't think that his presence there would make a damn bit of difference to 99% of the people affected.

-Alex

This is a significant tragedy for this country. In times of tragedy, we expect our President to show leadership and compassion. I don't expect Bush to go wandering around the streets of New Orleans in a boat, but I believe it would be a relatively simple matter for him to view the scene from Marine One and get a complete picture of what has happened. Follow that up by meeting with the governors and mayors to reassure them they will get all the assistance they need.

True, the people living through this disaster may not know about any of that, but the rest of us do. I guess we want a hands-on kind of President.

 

[sophia jane]

PS thank you Texas for the gernerosity and hospitality shown to the people devestated by this disaster.

Texas can be good for a few things. We already have thousands of people staying here, and lots of resources heading that way.

 

[Weird Harold]

I also remember seeing a clip of him at his ranch (on vacation) saying how much he likes to clear brush. Even a token appearance on his part, perhaps even rolling up his sleeves and grabbing a chainsaw for 5 minutes, would give some indication that he actually gives a rat's ass.

Can you imagine the howls of outrage at the "politically driven photo-op" that wouldbe generated by the GWB haters if he did somethinglike that.

He's in a no-win situation here, but I think he's probably able to do more from th Oval Office right now than he could by diverting resources to ferry him around the area -- every minute a helicopter spends hauling him and his entourage about is a minute it isn't available for rescuing someone.

Whatever he does, his oponents will howl he should be doing something else and castigate him for taking political advantage of human suffering.

 

[Extreme Bohunk]

Can you imagine the howls of outrage at the "politically driven photo-op" that wouldbe generated by the GWB haters if he did somethinglike that.

He's in a no-win situation here, but I think he's probably able to do more from th Oval Office right now than he could by diverting resources to ferry him around the area -- every minute a helicopter spends hauling him and his entourage about is a minute it isn't available for rescuing someone.

Whatever he does, his oponents will howl he should be doing something else and castigate him for taking political advantage of human suffering.

True, Harold.
There is no 'right' course of action in something like this.

It's not like it's over yet, the water is still rising in N.O.
I can't even pretend to imagine the logistics of trying to evacuate the people
still stranded there.

Just in from local news: Armed gangs are now roaming the streets.
Humanity at it's best.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I heard on the news that a bunch of Ham radio operators in Denver are helping people to keep in touch in the disaster areas.

 

[TxRad]

Just in from local news: Armed gangs are now roaming the streets.

Humanity at it's best.

I hate to say it but there were sections of N.O. that the cops wouldn't go into after dark and the local citizens didn't go through during the daylight. N.O. had and has one of the highest rates of people below the poverty level in the US. People see the glitze and glamore of Burbon Street but don't wander to far into the French Quarter after dark. Armed gangs is no surprisde to anyone who really knows the city.

 

[Extreme Bohunk]

more from AP

Bush Back to D.C. to Help Relief Efforts

WACO, Texas - President Bush held a video conference about Hurricane Katrina with his top advisers from his Texas ranch Wednesday and then flew over the disaster area en route back to the White House to oversee federal relief efforts.

Bush, who may visit the area later in the week, cut short his working vacation in Texas by two days — even though aides have long contended that his duties are uninterrupted when he spends time at his ranch in nearby Crawford, which has White House-level communications capability.

Vice President Dick Cheney participated in the video conference from Wyoming, and White House chief of staff Andy Card was on line from Maine. Other top officials participated from Washington.

On his way back to Washington, the president's plane, Air Force One, descended to an altitude of about 5,000 feet to allow Bush to view some of the worst hurricane damage. White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters that Bush was examining the destruction below from the front left side windows of the plane.

"This is a major catastrophe," McClellan had said earlier. "We are certainly going to do everything from the standpoint of the federal government to make sure the needs are met. This is a time when all Americans need to come together and do all we can to support those in the Gulf state region."

McClellan said the government was declaring the hurricane an "incident of national significance," a designation that triggers a recently developed national emergency plan for the first time and will allow better coordination among government agencies. McClellan said he expects the administration will request a supplemental appropriation to pay for disaster relief and recovery efforts.

Under the national response plan, which was finalized in January, the federal government intervenes only when emergencies exceed what state and local capabilities can handle. Though state and local officials have not formally declared that they can no longer manage the disaster on their own, that is the case, said Homeland Security spokesman Russ Knocke.

The president decided he should be in the nation's capital given the magnitude of destruction and death caused by Katrina, one of the most severe storms to ever hit the United States.

Katrina left thousands homeless in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, and many more without electricity or fresh drinking water. The storm also caused the closure of oil platforms and pipelines in the Gulf Coast. Energy Secretary Samuel Bodman said Wednesday the administration will release from the federal petroleum reserves to help refiners affected by the hurricane.

The president, upon his return to Washington, planned to chair a meeting of a White House task force set up to coordinate the federal efforts to assist hurricane victims across more than a dozen agencies.

Bush was expected to visit the ravaged region by week's end, but details on that trip were in flux as the White House worked to make sure a presidential tour would not disrupt the relief and response efforts.

"These are trying times for the people of these communities. We know that many are anxious to return to their homes. It's not possible at this moment," the president said Tuesday during a speech in Coronado, Calif. "Right now our priority is on saving lives, and we are still in the midst of search and rescue operations."

 

[Weird Harold]

I heard on the news that a bunch of Ham radio operators in Denver are helping people to keep in touch in the disaster areas.

It's not just in Denver. Ham Radio operators, like Linuxgeek, all over the country (and allover the world) are organized to assist in disasters like this and don't get nearly as much recognition as they deserve.

 

[sophia jane]

Some info for people who want to help. This is a local news channel's website.
link

 

[TxRad]

It's not just in Denver. Ham Radio operators, like Linuxgeek, all over the country (and allover the world) are organized to assist in disasters like this and don't get nearly as much recognition as they deserve.

I agree one hundred percent... we have several hams here locally and they have been on the air since the day before the storm and have one hell of a network of radio and phone links.....

 

[dr_mabeuse]

They're now saying that it could takes 2-3 months just to pump New Orleans dry. Will they keep people out during that entire time? The waters are a truly toxic brew of oil slick and chemicals, and will soon be a prime breeding ground for typhus and other diseases.

It honestly seems like this might be the end of a great city.

 

[sophia jane]

They're now saying that it could takes 2-3 months just to pump New Orleans dry. Will they keep people out during that entire time? The waters are a truly toxic brew of oil slick and chemicals, and will soon be a prime breeding ground for typhus and other diseases.

It honestly seems like this might be the end of a great city.

I just read that if the water rises a few more feet, it'll completely destroy the city's water system. So not only will New Orleans have to dry out, but then it will have to rebuild.

Also just read that they're going to bus the people from the Superdome into Houston and house them at the Astrodome.

 

[TxRad]

They're now saying that it could takes 2-3 months just to pump New Orleans dry. Will they keep people out during that entire time? The waters are a truly toxic brew of oil slick and chemicals, and will soon be a prime breeding ground for typhus and other diseases.

It honestly seems like this might be the end of a great city.

From what I've heard, the pumps in N.O. will remove about an inch an hour from the city. but first the levees need to be repaired and electrical power needs to be restored to the pumps...

 

[Extreme Bohunk]

They're now saying that it could takes 2-3 months just to pump New Orleans dry. Will they keep people out during that entire time? The waters are a truly toxic brew of oil slick and chemicals, and will soon be a prime breeding ground for typhus and other diseases.

It honestly seems like this might be the end of a great city.

Yes, I had heard as long as 4 months.
I think they're hoping for the best, but there's a lot of things that could
(and I'm afraid will) go wrong yet. Toxic chemicals from the industrial area, fuel tanks, old buildings already fighting off damage from Formosan termites.
I read one report that clumps of fire ants are floating around.
I have a bad feeling it's not even close to being over.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

They're now saying that it could takes 2-3 months just to pump New Orleans dry. Will they keep people out during that entire time? The waters are a truly toxic brew of oil slick and chemicals, and will soon be a prime breeding ground for typhus and other diseases.

It honestly seems like this might be the end of a great city.

Nah.

There has to be a port city at the mouth of the Mississippi. Too much comerce goes down river from the interior of the country. It will be rebuilt.

And from what I have read, the most important parts of the historic city are still above water. Jackson Sq. Cathedral, the French quarter, etc. It will be a long, arduous and expensive project, but it will get done.

When you consider the fact that fuel prices are making shipping over land more and more cost prohibitive, the rivers will assume importance they haven't had since the advent of the locomotive. And in the long run, the cost of rebuilding will be less than the cost of giving up would be.

 

[rgraham666]

Can you imagine the howls of outrage at the "politically driven photo-op" that wouldbe generated by the GWB haters if he did somethinglike that.

He's in a no-win situation here, but I think he's probably able to do more from th Oval Office right now than he could by diverting resources to ferry him around the area -- every minute a helicopter spends hauling him and his entourage about is a minute it isn't available for rescuing someone.

Whatever he does, his oponents will howl he should be doing something else and castigate him for taking political advantage of human suffering.

I disagree with this, Harold.

To say I'm an opponent of Shrub II would be an understatement.

If he had dropped everything and gone to the disaster site such an act would have raised my opinion of him enormously. It would make him look as if he actually cared about the people he is responsible for.

Now he looks like he always does. Living in rather a bit of a fantasy land. The cynical part of my thinks that his advisers are now looking at ways to use the disaster to support tax cuts, or allow the extractive industries the opportunity to use public land under the heading of 'disaster relief'.

 

[Weird Harold]

I disagree with this, Harold.

To say I'm an opponent of Shrub II would be an understatement.

If he had dropped everything and gone to the disaster site such an act would have raised my opinion of him enormously. It would make him look as if he actually cared about the people he is responsible for.

You're on the "Damned if he don't" side. Other Bush-bashers are on the "Damned if he does" side -- like those who accused him of "political grandstanding" when he visited the hurricane in Florida last year.

You might not find fault with an immediate visit in the midst of search and rescue operations but there are many out there who would -- especially if he were to actually indulge in some hands on brush clearing as was suggested earlier in the thread.

 

[cloudy]

I hate to say it but there were sections of N.O. that the cops wouldn't go into after dark and the local citizens didn't go through during the daylight. N.O. had and has one of the highest rates of people below the poverty level in the US. People see the glitze and glamore of Burbon Street but don't wander to far into the French Quarter after dark. Armed gangs is no surprisde to anyone who really knows the city.

Yep. There's sections in the Quarter that aren't safe at all.

As far as why some didn't leave: I'm sure some just thought they could ride it out, but what some folks don't seem to realize is the appalling poverty that exists in N.O.

I'm sure that many, many of the people that didn't leave, didn't leave because they couldn't, not because they were arrogant. No money, no car, no where to go.....

Something to think about.

 

[amicus]

While there is no 'good side' to this terrible and ongoing disaster, the recently completed press conference in Washington D.C. that brought together the heads of all government agencies and gave detailed information as to their activities.

Much of what is planned was made possible by preparations for terrorist attacks by the Homeland Secuity act. By prior coordination of nationwide assets, inter agency cooperation and early action by the President to declare these areas 'disasters' even before the storm came onshore, this provides an excellent example of how this nation might respond to other than 'natural' disasters.

There is a distinct possibility that the Cith of New Orleans will not be rebuilt. Estimates that over 40,000 homesand businesses have been completely flooded indicates that those structures will be condemned, not salvaged.

Add to that the visible destruction of highways and bridges, the contamination of the water system and the failure of the levee system, it would appear that rebuilding the city would not be cost effective.

In addition, the consideration that New Orleans will remain beneath sea level and require continuous maintenance and construction of levees and pumping facilities and probably can not be, in reality, protected from the effects of Category 4 and 5 hurricane destruction.

This is sad for many and I myself have spent a great deal of time in New Orleans; parts of it are/were very beautiful and unique in culture and heritage.

I have also lived in both Gulfport and Biloxi and the destruction is almost incomprehensible. I have gambled in the Grand Casino that was lifted up and dumped on highway 90. I have daily driven past that Lighthouse in Biloxi that has been viewed on television a hundred times in the past few days.

My daughter worked with the Seals in the Sea Park Aquarium that was totally destroyed and the animals killed.

My other daughter went to college in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, which has been described as being totally destroyed.

I lost a sailboat in Biloxi to Hurricane George several years ago in a Marina that is now gone. I lived in an apartment in Gulfport, next to the Edgewater Mall, both of which were destroyed as was the Olive Garden Restaurant where yet another daughter worked.

My entire family has many friends along the entire gulf coast area, some in small towns not yet reported, such as Long Beach, Bay St. Louis, Pass Christian and Waveland, all on the coast between Gulfport and Slidell on the road to New Orleans.

This is a disaster almost beyond comprehension and my best wishes go out to all of those affected.

amicus

 

[Alex756]

My entire family has many friends along the entire gulf coast area, some in small towns not yet reported, such as Long Beach, Bay St. Louis, Pass Christian and Waveland, all on the coast between Gulfport and Slidell on the road to New Orleans.

amicus

If you hear anything about Pass Christian if you could pass it on. Only word I've heard is goodmorning america had a reporter trying to get there this morning but she couldn't get there. No one I know has heard anything from there yet. A woman I know in a relief org was trying to get there too and couldn't get in everything was impassable .

-Alex

 

[glynndah]

What can George Bush do?
1. Stay out of New Orleans and other of the hardest lit areas, but tell the public why he's not there. Not safe for anyone but trained and essential personnel, too much manpower wasted on keeping one man safe, other things he can do elsewhere that will help area more, etc.

2. Coordinate things with FTC, and whoever to set up communication lines so people can get in touch with family members, where to donate goods and services, and stuff like that. If there ever was a reason to initiate the Emergency Broadcast System, this is it.

3. Meet with volunteer organizations that are ready to lend goods and support and get them where they need to be. Not in the epicenter, but in the outlaying areas where people have set up shelters. Those towns are going to need workers to feed the victims, housing and other things.

4. Donate some of his own money. I'm sure the cost to the federal government will be enormous but there is still a lot of help that a few dollars from each individual will buy. Showing the American people that each one of them can make a difference with their pocket change is a good thing.

5. Donate blood and encourage everyone to do the same. The demand for blood is always greatest during the summer and I'm sure there will be many many injuries and ailments where a pint of blood could mean the difference between life and death. The blood you give will probably not go directly to the hurricane victims, but it will be one less thing that the red cross and hospitals across the world will have to deal with in less affected areas so more of their time and energy can go where it is needed.

6. Open up those food warehouses. People and groups need that food and since it is going to go bad anyway, it should be used. This is not to say that individuals should help themselves to whatever is on the shelves of their local Winn-Dixie. Soup kitchens can be set up. Reassure the business owners that their business will be safe and the cost of their inventory will be reimbursed.

I'm sure there are many other things that he can do. Those are the ones I thought of off the top of my head.

Thank you for listening. I'll step off the soapbox now.