Justice Finally Served, Libby sentence commuted!

[amicus]

The left wing democrat assault of Vice President Cheney, stemming from Ambassador Wilson's false statements concerning nuclear materials in Nigeria, finally over, (mostly)

Purely a political smear tactic against the current Administration, augmented by a glory seeking Prosecutor, President Bush today commuted the three year jail sentence of Lewis, 'Scooter', Libby.

Left in place awaiting appeal are the $250,000 fine and two years probation.

Finally, an end to a sad affair perpetrated by partisan left wing activists.

Amicus

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Sorry, Ami,
This only shows how worried Bush and Chaney are that Libby would squeel rather than face prison. Now, they can hide behind their lies and half-truths until the end of their terms. I suppose Bush didn't think this would hurt his approval rating anymore than everything else Chaney and his cronies have done.

It's a sad day for America.

 

[sethp]

hmmm I tend to be a bit untrusting of both left and right wing politicians.

I mean look at harry reid...all he seems to do is complain. Look at right wing talk radio ..the same.. there is no real work being done by anyone with any political agenda. hmmmmm ( I realize those were both bad and non-equal examples but..)

 

[BlackShanglan]

I suppose it was inevtiable. If lying under oath were to actually be prosecuted with any regularity, our system of government as we know it would utterly collapse. Still, I'm surprised that it would occur now and not as Bush was leaving office. Perhaps he's decided that he really can't do anything to help himself at this point, and the best thing he can do for his party is to give the potential presidential candidates reasons to vociferously differ with him.

 

[amicus]

Sorry, Ami,
This only shows how worried Bush and Chaney are that Libby would squeel rather than face prison. Now, they can hide behind their lies and half-truths until the end of their terms. I suppose Bush didn't think this would hurt his approval rating anymore than everything else Chaney and his cronies have done.

It's a sad day for America.

~~~

Well, Jenny Jackson, quite what was expected along party lines.

It would be amusing if some of the left would actually support the war in Iraq and of course, that is the entire issue, anti war, anti Bush.

A Democrat majority in Congress and most likely a Democrat in the White House in about eighteen months will not change the fact that Islamic terrorism is a world wide threat.

I suggest that if it doesn't happen before 2009 and if a Democrat is in the White House, that the United States and the Coalition will have boots on the ground in Iran also and probably Syria as well.

The 'left' seems to have a poor understanding of foreign policy matters, preferring isolationism and non intervention. I suppose it restrains the 'right' to some degree and as such, is a balance of power.

This whole Joe and Valery Wilson fiasco is just that. I am not sure how Ambassador's are chosen and retained in service, but Wilson, serving at the pleasure of the President to carry out the foreign policy of the current administration. Wilson failed in that as he had and has a political agenda adverse to his employer.

Amicus

 

[BlackShanglan]

It would be amusing if some of the left would actually support the war in Iraq and of course, that is the entire issue, anti war, anti Bush.

And here we all thought it was lying under oath in a court of law. Goodness, Amicus, you teach us something new every day.

 

[amicus]

I suppose it was inevtiable. If lying under oath were to actually be prosecuted with any regularity, our system of government as we know it would utterly collapse. Still, I'm surprised that it would occur now and not as Bush was leaving office. Perhaps he's decided that he really can't do anything to help himself at this point, and the best thing he can do for his party is to give the potential presidential candidates reasons to vociferously differ with him.

~~~

Well, Shanglan, that was the verdict of the Jury, that Libby lied under oath, however...

As neither Libby nor the Vice President's office were involved in releasing Valery Wilson's identity, it seems a moot point and Libby claimed merely to have forgotten certain aspects of certain conversations which conflicted with other evidence.

And jury's do make errors, I think they did in this case.

Amicus...

 

[jrydher]

Now Bush and Cheney should both impeached since they're the real crooks.

 

[amicus]

Now Bush and Cheney should both impeached since they're the real crooks.

~~~

Ah, fresh meat.

Guess you announced your position clearly.

amicus

 

[BlackShanglan]

~~~

Well, Shanglan, that was the verdict of the Jury, that Libby lied under oath, however...

As neither Libby nor the Vice President's office were involved in releasing Valery Wilson's identity, it seems a moot point and Libby claimed merely to have forgotten certain aspects of certain conversations which conflicted with other evidence.

And jury's do make errors, I think they did in this case.

Amicus...

I thought that the judge addressed this point very nicely. One should never, ever reduce a sentence for perjury based on whether or not the original crime was proven. That is generally, after all, the entire point of the perjury: to prevent the crime from being proven. To claim that a case not being proven mitigates obstruction of justice and perjury charges related to it is like saying that the absence of testimony from a witness should mitigate charges of witness tampering and intimidation because the witness must not have had anything to say. It's quite ridiculous.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

~~~


I suggest that if it doesn't happen before 2009 and if a Democrat is in the White House, that the United States and the Coalition will have boots on the ground in Iran also and probably Syria as well.

The 'left' seems to have a poor understanding of foreign policy matters, preferring isolationism and non intervention. I suppose it restrains the 'right' to some degree and as such, is a balance of power.


Amicus

I have to disagree with you again, Ami. The left understands all too well the "Pandora's Box" the Bush Administration opened with the invasion of Iraq. Every president since Carter have gone out of their way to avoid the mess we have in Iraq - even George HW.

To have "boots on the ground" in Iran and possibly Syria as you put it is just silly. Where do we get the troops? We didn't have enough to invade Iraq and still don't have enough troops to do the job of holding that country. So who do you intend to send to Iran and Syria? Boy Scouts?

This is just a big mess that Bush started and will leave for someone else to clean up. I suggest it won't be cleaned up by the next administration either. This is going to be a 10 year problem, assuming it doesn't escalate any farther into Western Europe.

For Bush to set Libby free the way he did today is just like telling Congress to "Go Fuck Yourself." Do not expect either the House or Senate to make any effort to work with Bush after this. I fully expect both houses to keep up the pressure. The immigration bill went down the toilet. Did you hear the flush, George?

 

[jrydher]

~~~

Ah, fresh meat.

Guess you announced your position clearly.

amicus

Only an idiot would still back these two losers, so I guess we know where you stand.

 

[amicus]

I thought that the judge addressed this point very nicely. One should never, ever reduce a sentence for perjury based on whether or not the original crime was proven. That is generally, after all, the entire point of the perjury: to prevent the crime from being proven. To claim that a case not being proven mitigates obstruction of justice and perjury charges related to it is like saying that the absence of testimony from a witness should mitigate charges of witness tampering and intimidation because the witness must not have had anything to say. It's quite ridiculous.

~~~

That reads as if a 'lawyer' wrote it.

'nuf said.

amicus

 

[amicus]

I have to disagree with you again, Ami. The left understands all too well the "Pandora's Box" the Bush Administration opened with the invasion of Iraq. Every president since Carter have gone out of their way to avoid the mess we have in Iraq - even George HW.

To have "boots on the ground" in Iran and possibly Syria as you put it is just silly. Where do we get the troops? We didn't have enough to invade Iraq and still don't have enough troops to do the job of holding that country. So who do you intend to send to Iran and Syria? Boy Scouts?

This is just a big mess that Bush started and will leave for someone else to clean up. I suggest it won't be cleaned up by the next administration either. This is going to be a 10 year problem, assuming it doesn't escalate any farther into Western Europe.

For Bush to set Libby free the way he did today is just like telling Congress to "Go Fuck Yourself." Do not expect either the House or Senate to make any effort to work with Bush after this. I fully expect both houses to keep up the pressure. The immigration bill went down the toilet. Did you hear the flush, George?

~~~

Well, gollee, Jenny, why not jump in with both feet?

We have ample troops, trained and ready despite the cutbacks in both military and intelligence services during the Clinton administration.

What we do not have and could not have with double the size of military personnel, is sufficient numbers to provide a 'police force' and construction battalion for Iraq.

But insofar as necessary men and equipment to open a front in Iran, easily and North Korea too, if required.

If you and others had a whit of patriotism about you, you would support your President and a Congress that voted to conduct the war andmake an effort to understand what has happened and what will happen in the Middle East, instead of whining anti war slogans.

Perhaps the people of Iraq and others in the area were dismayed that the United States and the Coalition forces did not eliminate Hussein in the first gulf war. There was sufficient and ample cause as Saddam was guilty of the use of weapons of mass destruction against the Kurds and the Iranians by the use of chemical weapons and was actively seeking nuclear weapons.

Perhaps we, perhaps no one, understood the tribal conflict within Iraq itself and the degree to which it would conflict with the desire for political freedom expressed by the Iraqi people.

Perhaps we, perhaps no one, understands the true meaning of a religious Jihad against the west, and it is clear to me that even now, few belief the stated intent of the Muslim world to destroy those opposed to their religion.

There is much dialog you could offer, instead you join the chorus of the 'whiner's'.

Amicus...

 

[amicus]

Only an idiot would still back these two losers, so I guess we know where you stand.

~~~

Ah, and now name calling too in addition to your abysmal ignorance.

No class at all.


amicus

 

[flavortang]

Democrats suck, Republicans shit gold. There, the discussion can end now.

 

[jrydher]

~~~

Ah, and now name calling too in addition to your abysmal ignorance.

No class at all.


amicus

Its not name calling..its fact.. Republicans are idiots. You guys keep fucking up the country if it makes you feel good though.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I think Bush knocked off Vince Foster in Texas and Cheney brought the body to that park in DC.

They all suck. Except the Libertarian Party people - they're just silly and irrelevent.

 

[Pure]

ami is bucking for a job with the Republican National Committee, as usual.

ami, the guy who talks minimal gov't has no problem with domestic surveillance outside the law. the "commander in chief" says it's gotta be this way. "ay, ay, sir," says, ami.

 

[Pure]

for those with a taste for the facts:

feller's acct in HP

Unlike a pardon, which would have wiped away Libby's criminal record, Bush's commutation voided only the prison term.

The president left intact a $250,000 fine and two years' probation for his conviction of lying and obstructing justice in a probe into the leak of a CIA operative's identity. The former operative, Valerie Plame, contends the White House was trying to discredit her husband, a critic of Bush's Iraq policy.

Bush said his action still "leaves in place a harsh punishment for Mr. Libby."
[..]

Bush's statement made no mention of the term "pardon," and he made clear that he was not willing to wipe away all penalties for Libby.

The president noted Libby supporters' argument that the punishment did not fit the crime for a "first-time offender with years of exceptional public service."

Yet, he added: "Others point out that a jury of citizens weighed all the evidence and listened to all the testimony and found Mr. Libby guilty of perjury and obstructing justice. They argue, correctly, that our entire system of justice relies on people telling the truth. And if a person does not tell the truth, particularly if he serves in government and holds the public trust, he must be held accountable."

Bush then stripped away the prison time.


The finding of guilt, which stands, is just what ms plame/wilson needs for her civil suit.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Pure, what was the underlying crime in pursuit of which "justice" was obstructed?

 

[S-Des]

I For Bush to set Libby free the way he did today is just like telling Congress to "Go Fuck Yourself." Do not expect either the House or Senate to make any effort to work with Bush after this. I fully expect both houses to keep up the pressure. The immigration bill went down the toilet. Did you hear the flush, George?

Uh, Jenny . . . it was Ted Kennedy's bill.

 

[WRJames]

Even Colin Powell is backing off hard on the war in Iraq -- probably he is just now going public with his opinions. Recent events in Britain and Yemen show how Irag has become a training ground for terrorists. And, the Taliban has adopted techniques perfected in Iraq. So -- how can you possibly justify what has happened there? Even if we by some miracle are able to stabilize Iraq to the point we can get out, we have strengthened Iran, stengthened Syria, sterngthened Al Qaeda, let the Taliban reassert itself. All of these are direct results of our intervention in Iraq. And what threat did we eliminate? There were no weapons of mass destruction. There were no ties between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda. The French were telling us this, the Russians were telling us this, and they were shouted down in classic Karl Rove style.

This administration has been giving us the mushroom diet -- keep them in the dark and feed them bullshit.

 

[Carnevil9]

Okay, show of hands: how many of you who are outraged by this commutation (NOT a "pardon") were similarly enraged by Bill Clinton's full pardon (after accepting a "donation" of a million dollars) of Marc Rich?

I'm not saying two wrongs make a right; I'm just wondering who really thinks this is a bad thing to do, as opposed to who just hates GWB and will criticize anything he does?

 

[Pure]

Rox rocks

RAPure, what was the underlying crime in pursuit of which "justice" was obstructed?

I *think* there is a crime for which Libby was convicted: the prosecutor and judge thought so, and the jury convicted; Libby had the best defense money could buy.

Bush's commutation remarks noted the crime

Yet, he added: "Others point out that a jury of citizens weighed all the evidence and listened to all the testimony and found Mr. Libby guilty of perjury and obstructing justice. They argue, correctly, that our entire system of justice relies on people telling the truth. And if a person does not tell the truth, particularly if he serves in government and holds the public trust, he must be held accountable."

So, wouldn't it be very odd if all these smart people thought there was a crime and there wasn't--- according to you (if that's what you're suggesting) and amicus?

Perhaps you're asking if, *besides the crime* for which there was a conviction, there was a further, more hidden, subtle and remote crime. Well, with all the Cheney stonewalling, and the 'obstruction' by his subordinates, this will take some time to figure out.