D
DesEsseintes
Guest
This has been a refreshing and illuminating discussion - many thanks to the original poster and to all those very experienced people who contributed (with the exception, of course, of the White Witch and her troglodytic acolytes, hoofing into the discussion with all the restraint and grace of a paralytic hippo).
I ought to have made it clearer, as others have, that of course my opinions are purely personal, and in no way did I wish to go down the 'No true Dom' fallacy route. Everyone's thoughtful perspectives on what works for them has made me look at my own motives more clearly, and I'm afraid they are rather grandiose. Still, aim high, and all that...
The closest analogy for what I am trying to achieve within a D/s relationship (each time inevitably failing, but failing better, as Beckett wrote) is what I understand to be the theology behind Free Will. God wishes us, goes the argument, not to be slaves, with no choice other than to obey him - he wishes us to have the option of taking the evil path so that those who choose good, from their own free will, have made a meaningful decision. Similarly, I want a sub to be unsure of what she wants, and to gradually become surer that what she wants is to abdicate, little by little, her own responsibility. To slip into theology again for a moment, I want her to feel that true freedom comes from giving up decisions.
Now if I were to beat this into her (well, quite apart from the fact that it wouldn't work, and that I don't especially enjoy floggings, etc), it would be as if God had implanted us all with an overwhelming desire to choose the good. Such a decision on his part would certainly ensure he had an army of billions to do his bidding - but it would be less satisfying than mere thousands or millions who freely chose his way. I don't want her to be willing at first - otherwise where is my victory? I want her to be nervous, unsure, to take a step back for every step forward - precisely because I want each step to be the result of a struggle within herself to be more submissive.
Doesn't that sound as if I want a brat - someone who will answer back, snap at me, try to push me into a corner so that I lose my temper and my control? Perhaps. The difference for me is that fear, anxiety, nervousness, etc are all understandable - even desirable - emotions, in someone making such a fundamental journey against the Sartrean authenticity of being their own agent. But none of those things have to be expressed rudely, or insolently, or to be a challenge for me.
"I don't know if I can do that. Help me?" would elicit a warm response, a discussion, perhaps a step back, perhaps a breaking-down of whatever task it is into more manageable chunks - in short, I hope, a sensitive, mutual exploration which will still get us to where I want us to go, albeit by a more circuitous route.
"Come on then, bitch, make me!" merely leads to a shut down of any respect on my behalf. It is not my task to force someone against their will. It is my task, as I see it and take pleasure in it, to bend their will itself until it aligns with mine.
I am sure there will be many who see this as absurd, impossible, undesirable, etc - that's fine. Once more, it takes all sorts. I genuinely meant it when I said that I have, perhaps, never before thought so clearly about what motivates me, and that is owing to the thoughtfulness and wisdom of the posters above. Thank you again.
I ought to have made it clearer, as others have, that of course my opinions are purely personal, and in no way did I wish to go down the 'No true Dom' fallacy route. Everyone's thoughtful perspectives on what works for them has made me look at my own motives more clearly, and I'm afraid they are rather grandiose. Still, aim high, and all that...
The closest analogy for what I am trying to achieve within a D/s relationship (each time inevitably failing, but failing better, as Beckett wrote) is what I understand to be the theology behind Free Will. God wishes us, goes the argument, not to be slaves, with no choice other than to obey him - he wishes us to have the option of taking the evil path so that those who choose good, from their own free will, have made a meaningful decision. Similarly, I want a sub to be unsure of what she wants, and to gradually become surer that what she wants is to abdicate, little by little, her own responsibility. To slip into theology again for a moment, I want her to feel that true freedom comes from giving up decisions.
Now if I were to beat this into her (well, quite apart from the fact that it wouldn't work, and that I don't especially enjoy floggings, etc), it would be as if God had implanted us all with an overwhelming desire to choose the good. Such a decision on his part would certainly ensure he had an army of billions to do his bidding - but it would be less satisfying than mere thousands or millions who freely chose his way. I don't want her to be willing at first - otherwise where is my victory? I want her to be nervous, unsure, to take a step back for every step forward - precisely because I want each step to be the result of a struggle within herself to be more submissive.
Doesn't that sound as if I want a brat - someone who will answer back, snap at me, try to push me into a corner so that I lose my temper and my control? Perhaps. The difference for me is that fear, anxiety, nervousness, etc are all understandable - even desirable - emotions, in someone making such a fundamental journey against the Sartrean authenticity of being their own agent. But none of those things have to be expressed rudely, or insolently, or to be a challenge for me.
"I don't know if I can do that. Help me?" would elicit a warm response, a discussion, perhaps a step back, perhaps a breaking-down of whatever task it is into more manageable chunks - in short, I hope, a sensitive, mutual exploration which will still get us to where I want us to go, albeit by a more circuitous route.
"Come on then, bitch, make me!" merely leads to a shut down of any respect on my behalf. It is not my task to force someone against their will. It is my task, as I see it and take pleasure in it, to bend their will itself until it aligns with mine.
I am sure there will be many who see this as absurd, impossible, undesirable, etc - that's fine. Once more, it takes all sorts. I genuinely meant it when I said that I have, perhaps, never before thought so clearly about what motivates me, and that is owing to the thoughtfulness and wisdom of the posters above. Thank you again.
