June 8th, 1967 Massacre

[patient1]

The Israelis made repeated unprovoked attacks against a helpless US NAVY ship

"ON JUNE 8, 1967, while patrolling in international waters in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea, USS Liberty (AGTR-5) was savagely attacked without warning or justification by air and naval forces of the state of Israel. Of a crew of 294 officers and men (including three civilians), the ship suffered thirty four (34) killed in action and one hundred seventy three (173) wounded in action. The ship itself, a Forty Million ($40,000,000) Dollar state of the art signals intelligence (SIGINT) platform, was so badly damaged that it never sailed on an operational mission again and was sold in 1970 for $101,666.66 as scrap."

http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/

Those kind of casualties were just tears in the rain in 1967, but regardless, it's an outrageous incident that got swept under the rug.

*One theory says that it was a deliberate attempt by Israel to sink the ship, blame Egypt, and draw the USA into the war.

*Another is that it was a deliberate Israeli attempt to black out communications at any cost. They were preparing to invade the Golan, and Johnson was opposed to it. Likewise, the Russians were supposedly monitoring American communications. Potentially any information the Liberty collected could be intercepted by the Russians and passed on to Israel's enemies.

*Mistaken identity is a credible theory. If you assume that, then you have to consider that Israel was probably guilty of war crimes strafing the life rafts.

I don't mean to lay all of the blame for this on Israel. Johnson and MacNamara deserve heaping helpings. According to some reports, American air support that could have removed all doubt as to the identity of the burning wreck ( and preventing repeated strikes ) was twice recalled to the USS Saratoga.


The original investigation was a whitewash.

Most people are unaware of the "incident". Look into it and share your opinion.

Wikipedia- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

YouTube / BBC - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy2gkkp8Cl8

NSA- http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/declass/uss_liberty/

 

[Busybody]

Drop Dead

 

[richard_daily]

"helpless navy ship".

 

[JinSun]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6690425.stm

 

[patient1]

"helpless navy ship".

In theory, a navy ship, even an unarmed one in peacetime has the full support of the USN , in this case the the sixth fleet, at that time featuring the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, a cruiser and other escort ships. As I said, the carrier sent air support twice. Both times it was recalled.


Let's see.
The first air attack was rockets and 30mm cannon.

The second air attack was Napalm and cannon. The fire cloacked the Liberty in smoke.

The water attack began with shelling which hit the bridge and killed the helmsman.

Then they launched torpedoes, blowing a 40 foot hole in the side.
I'm pretty sure at that point, with no support from the navy, a lack of armament, the damage to the bridge, the fire, and the hole in the side, not to mention radio jamming, that the Liberty was helpless.

Then the Israeli navy torpedo boats moved in close and strafed the Liberty with cannon and machine guns, hitting damage control parties fighting the fire and life rafts in the water.


Some people can find humor in any situation.

 

[RobDownSouth]

"Zey vuz only following orders.........."

Zipman, Beco, Busybody and/or Dazzle1 will be along shortly to declare you a Palestinian Supporter for your biased account of those poor defenseless Israelis perservering against overwhelming odds.

The Israelis were the real victims here...VICTIMS DAMMIT!

 

[JinSun]

In theory, a navy ship, even an unarmed one in peacetime has the full support of the USN , in this case the the sixth fleet, at that time featuring the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, a cruiser and other escort ships. As I said, the carrier sent air support twice. Both times it was recalled.


Let's see.
The first air attack was rockets and 30mm cannon.

The second air attack was Napalm and cannon. The fire cloacked the Liberty in smoke.

The water attack began with shelling which hit the bridge and killed the helmsman.

Then they launched torpedoes, blowing a 40 foot hole in the side.
I'm pretty sure at that point, with no support from the navy, a lack of armament, the damage to the bridge, the fire, and the hole in the side, not to mention radio jamming, that the Liberty was helpless.

Then the Israeli navy torpedo boats moved in close and strafed the Liberty with cannon and machine guns, hitting damage control parties fighting the fire and life rafts in the water.


Some people can find humor in any situation.

It was a terrible tragedy, that much is obvious. The fact that both sides covered it up was unfortunate, but obviously necessary, as it would look terrible to see one of the United States' closest allies attacking it. Despite the unfortunate occurrence, and several other events, the relationship between the two countries has never been stronger.

 

[kbate]

"helpless navy ship".

they're right there, AGTR is not a combatant designation. It is a spy ship.

 

[patient1]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6690425.stm

I hadn't read that particular article before. Thanks. It's a good starting point.

It was a terrible tragedy, that much is obvious. The fact that both sides covered it up was unfortunate, but obviously necessary, as it would look terrible to see one of the United States' closest allies attacking it. Despite the unfortunate occurrence, and several other events, the relationship between the two countries has never been stronger.

I'd like to thank you for being the first and only person who appears to have both read something on the subject and shared your opinion.

 

[ryan8558]

A decent book on the matter is The Assault on the Liberty by James Ennes, Jr.

Mr. Ennes was on the bridge at the time of the attack.

It's a bit difficult to find this book even in public libraries.




http://www.amazon.com/Assault-Liber...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1370696698&sr=1-1

 

[patient1]

Here's an excerpt from the request to investigate a war crime.

http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.htm


"In the instant matter, Israel freely acknowledged that USS Liberty was a neutral ship in international waters.[56] Israel also admitted that the attack was deliberate and made with the intent to sink the ship and crew.[57] Israel has thus explicitly admitted the essential elements of a violation of Article 1 of the Hague Convention on Naval Warfare. Israel has further admitted the essential elements required to establish a "grave breach" as that term is defined in the Geneva Convention (1949).

The Nürnberg War Crimes Tribunal established certain principles that were later adopted by all members of the United Nations.[58] Of particular relevance is Principal VI:

"Principle VI

The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:

. . .

(b) War crimes:

Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave-labour or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war, of persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity."

It is well settled that homicides resulting from the accused committing an act inherently dangerous to others and showing a wanton disregard of human life may be charged as murder:

"Homicides prosecuted under Article 118(3) are those unlawful killings which result from an accused's committing "an act inherently dangerous to others and" showing "a wanton disregard of human life." The accused must also know that death or great bodily harm was a "probable consequence" of his conduct. Not surprisingly, intentional homicides under Article 118(2) also generally involve death as a "probable consequence"; and they are most often committed by acts which are "inherently dangerous," particularly to the deceased, and show "a wanton disregard" for the victim (i.e., killing by gunfire or other dangerous weapon). "


Sounds like a war crime worthy of investigation to me, but the Department of Defense still refuses to look into it.

 

[patient1]

As to theories-

*Apparently the Israelis had already informed Johnson of their plans to invade the Golan heights, so attacking the Liberty to keep that secret doesn't seem credible. Unless the right hand didn't know what the left was doing, which seems to be the case in the Israeli Defense Forces, if you believe their version of events.

* If it was a deliberate attempt to draw the USA into the war against Egypt, it almost worked. That's who Washington assumed was responsible. There is no evidence of prior planning to support this that I can find, although lots of evidence about this incident has been deleted.

 

[patient1]

Goddamn that callous uncouth cowardly rat bastard Lyndon Johnson to hell. Fuck him, and that horse's ass MacNamara he rode in on. He sacrificed his men for mere political expediency, and then didn't even stand for re-election.

It's that time of year again. In 1941 we called such behavior an act of war.
In 1898 we called it an act of war, and we didn't even know for sure how it happened.

I've learned more in the interim, or maybe I've calmed down a little. I apparently overlooked the fact that the Carrier America also sent planes that were recalled.


At this point I'm inclined to believe that it was more a matter of the Israelis being unwilling to tolerate a spy ship in the theater, and decided to take it out first and ask questions later, or in this case, foregiveness. That's why the Israelis didn't bother with asking a ship in international waters who they were, they just jammed the Liberty's communications and attacked. They hit the whaleboat first, and didn't break off the attack before the life rafts were deployed and they sank those too. It seemed like they didn't want any survivors. Dead men tell no tales.

Between the napalm fires and the torpedo-induced settling into the sea and listing, they may have thought their mission was accomplished. Or maybe the Isrealis only broke off the attack because they once again ran out of ammunition.
Who the hell knows? Probably not the Israelis, because their sweeping one man 4 day investigation by a paratrooper didn't interview any of the pilots involved in the attack.

 

[patient1]

It's that time of year again. In 1941 we called such behavior an act of war.
In 1898 we called it an act of war, and we didn't even know for sure how it happened.

Oops. I forgot to mention the Gulf of Tonkin incident, in which the Vietnamese attacked a USN vessel with 3 torpedo boats, and managed to start a war with only one hit from a 14.5mm round.

 

[patient1]

There's something surreal about US taxpayers having their money spent on American munitions which were given to Israel, then used against American servicemen in the conscription era. Take your money, take your sons, and then give that money to somebody intent on destroying them, and next to nothing is said about it.

Granted, Israel promptly said they would compensate the families of the dead, but they weren't very prompt about it. There was low-balling, complaining, and negotiating when pressed. All of which seem to indicate that they weren't sorry at all. That and getting ever greater aid from Congress, so that the compensation really came out of the American taxpayer's pockets, not Israeli ones.

You would have thought that as dependent as Israel on American aid, American protection against the Soviet Union, and American support in the UN, they would have been more forthright with information and money.

Like I said. Surreal. Or as Lyndon might say, they had his pecker in their pocket.

 

[Skiddles2014]

How dare you post something horrific that the Jews did!

HOLOCAUST! OBAMA! DERP!

 

[patient1]

It's that time of year again...

Here's some more good reading-
http://www.rense.com/general39/pilot.htm


I bumped my thread because I had this thought again today-

"Goddamn that callous uncouth cowardly rat bastard Lyndon Johnson to hell. Fuck him, and that horse's ass MacNamara he rode in on!"

 

[phrodeau]

War is hell. Some people need their toys taken away.

 

[patient1]

How dare you post something horrific that the Jews did!

HOLOCAUST! OBAMA! DERP!

It doesn't strike me as a religious issue. There were Jews aboard the Liberty.
To me, it's about the United States Navy, the USA, and the nation of Israel.
It's about an act of war. It's about war crimes. It's about a cover-up.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

It's that time of year again...

Here's some more good reading-
http://www.rense.com/general39/pilot.htm


I bumped my thread because I had this thought again today-

"Goddamn that callous uncouth cowardly rat bastard Lyndon Johnson to hell. Fuck him, and that horse's ass MacNamara he rode in on!"

It's all good, but wouldn't this have been a more appropriate bump in nine days from now?

 

[DesEsseintes]

On June 8th itself, perhaps other wartime memorials might intrude more readily on the memory.

But I am thankful this was bumped - I am ashamed to say I had never heard of the incident.

 

[gotsnowgotslush]

Of a crew of 294 officers and men (including three civilians), the ship suffered thirty four (34) killed in action and one hundred seventy three (173) wounded in action.

https://www.usslibertyveterans.org/

08/02/13

Beattie, 65, of Clay Township, is a survivor of the USS Liberty, a U.S. communications ship -- a spy ship -- that was attacked by Israeli (a U.S. ally) war planes and ships that day 46 years ago that left 34 people dead (31 sailors, two Marines and a civilian) and 174 wounded in a crew of 294.

A fleet of Navy ships, only about a half-hour away, twice deployed fighters to defend the ship, only to recall them.

http://www.macombdaily.com/article/MD/20130802/NEWS01/130809916

 

[patient1]

On June 8th itself, perhaps other wartime memorials might intrude more readily on the memory.

But I am thankful this was bumped - I am ashamed to say I had never heard of the incident.

That's perfectly understandable.
Part of it was that it happened during the 1967 War. At the time Jews and Evangelicals ( like my family ) were celebrating God's modern day miracle on behalf of His Chosen People.

It was also during the televised Vietnam War, so America was a little jaded to body counts.

Then, as you possibly alluded, the anniversary falls on the heals of the D-Day invasion, and the Falklands War. Well, Britain has so much history that it crowds the calendar. Here, it's often the day of The Belmont Stakes, the final event of the "triple crown" of American horse racing.

But it goes beyond that-
The leadership of both nations repeatedly tried to prevent an airing of the issues, taking a what's-done-is-done, and-no-possible-good-could-come-from-looking into-it attitude. It might have jeopardized the US-Israeli alliance, or revealed malice and incompetence somewhere.

Not everybody agreed with that, but it tended to be bad for careers to bring it up.

 

[patient1]

http://www.macombdaily.com/article/MD/20130802/NEWS01/130809916

An excellent addition!

In June of this year, www.military.com released a story saying Liberty survivors couldn’t help but see a comparison between Benghazi, a 2012 incident in Libya in which four Americans were killed and no support was sent to help them, and the Liberty incident. But while multiple congressional investigations into Benghazi took place, the Liberty, a similar event, received none.

“We have long been struck by the similarities between Benghazi and USS Liberty,” retired Lt. Cmdr. James Ennes, is quoted as saying in the story. “Two unprovoked attacks, both resulting in deaths of Americans, but Congress quickly dismissed the Liberty attack as unworthy of their attention while dissecting the Benghazi issue for months.”

“There were four investigations into Benghazi,” Beattie added. “Everybody investigates everything nowadays. Yet there was no investigation on the Liberty. There was a short Navy investigation, but it was a joke.”

The LVA disputes that any sort of congressional investigation into the culpability of Israel has ever taken place. In fact, their website, www.usslibertyveterans.org, offers a $10,000 reward to anyone who can prove that such an investigation ever took place. Their offer has been in place since 2004, with no takers.


Every time it comes up, they try to sweep it back under the rug. The first investigation was a rush job, basically to clear the crew of wrongdoing in the loss of their ship.

*****************************************
Beattie said he believes Congress thinks the Liberty attack is a dead issue. The military.com article says the LVA is particularly upset that Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) has been the most hostile to having the hearings about the Liberty but was one of the loudest voices calling for investigations into Benghazi. They believe McCain opposes the Liberty investigations because his father, Adm. John McCain Jr. commanded U.S. Navy forces in Europe and the Middle East in 1967. Adm. McCain also convened the official court of Inquiry, which was chaired by Rear Adm. Kidd.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

As to theories-

*Apparently the Israelis had already informed Johnson of their plans to invade the Golan heights, so attacking the Liberty to keep that secret doesn't seem credible. Unless the right hand didn't know what the left was doing, which seems to be the case in the Israeli Defense Forces, if you believe their version of events.

* If it was a deliberate attempt to draw the USA into the war against Egypt, it almost worked. That's who Washington assumed was responsible. There is no evidence of prior planning to support this that I can find, although lots of evidence about this incident has been deleted.

At this point I'm inclined to believe that it was more a matter of the Israelis being unwilling to tolerate a spy ship in the theater, and decided to take it out first and ask questions later, or in this case, foregiveness. That's why the Israelis didn't bother with asking a ship in international waters who they were, they just jammed the Liberty's communications and attacked. They hit the whaleboat first, and didn't break off the attack before the life rafts were deployed and they sank those too. It seemed like they didn't want any survivors. Dead men tell no tales.

Between the napalm fires and the torpedo-induced settling into the sea and listing, they may have thought their mission was accomplished. Or maybe the Isrealis only broke off the attack because they once again ran out of ammunition.

None of your "theories" make any sense strictly from the standpoint of Israel breaking off the attack so quickly once the identity of the ship was confirmed and publicly admitting responsibility immediately.

You don't do that, nor do you "run out of ammunition" rolleyes, if your goal is to ensure no survivors.

You don't do that if your goal is to draw the U. S. into a war with Egypt.

You don't do that if you harbor the irrational belief that you can curtail a neutral country's intelligence gathering capabilities simply by sinking a single ship -- particularly if you fail to actually sink it and allow it to be salvaged with whatever intelligence it managed to collect nonetheless.

It was simply a cluster fuck brought on by Israel's pre-invasion hypertension and the Liberty being closer in than U. S. command wanted her to be, but did not take more concerted action to ensure.

The post-incident political machinations were simply politics as usual.