Judaism AMA

[Lazaran]

If it’s correct that 53 civilians were killed in a strike on a food store by IDF ( I’ve no idea if this is fact) per the posters description then Iran or Hamas’ behaviour isn’t really an excuse is it?

Except EVERY death in this CURRENT flare up of hostilities between Israel and the "Palestinians" (Iran, etc, really) was / is an ACUTE result / consequence of Hamas’ genocidal 10/7 rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation, so…



Hope that ^ helps.





We. Told. Them. So.

 

[Lazaran]

Better make it a good sign then!

You have me confused with someone who believes it’s a “both sides” situation: I have the receipts (Hamas’ 10/7 rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation) PROVING that ALL of the deaths related to this CURRENT flare up of hostilities between Israel and the "Palestinians" (Iran, etc, really) can be PRIMARILY placed at the feet of the genocidal "Palestinians" (Iran, etc, really).

Meanwhile, YOU completely omit / exclude Hamas’ 10/7 rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation from the equation…



GMAMFB
GTFOH
FOAD
TIA





We. Told. Them. So.

 

[ShandyLeer]

Except EVERY death in this CURRENT flare up of hostilities between Israel and the "Palestinians" (Iran, etc, really) was / is an ACUTE result / consequence of Hamas’ genocidal 10/7 rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation, so…



Hope that ^ helps.





We. Told. Them. So.

No. No it doesn’t help.

If you deliberately target and attack a crowd of civilians at a food store and kill 53 you need better justification than ‘Iran and Hamas started it”.

By this logic you may as well eradicate the entire population because Iran and Hamas did, indeed, “start it”.

And to categorise it as some sort of “national security activity” is beyond anything the IDFs PR department would try and hide behind.

Israel have every right to defend themselves to the max, but when you commit an atrocity you don’t get to play whataboutery.

 

[Lazaran]

No. No it doesn’t help.

If you deliberately target and attack a crowd of civilians at a food store and kill 53 you need better justification than ‘Iran and Hamas started it”.

By this logic you may as well eradicate the entire population because Iran and Hamas did, indeed, “start it”.

And to categorise it as some sort of “national security activity” is beyond anything the IDFs PR department would try and hide behind.

Israel have every right to defend themselves to the max, but when you commit an atrocity you don’t get to play whataboutery.

Sorry (not sorry, really), but I am ALWAYS going to start with 10/7 when discussing deaths occurring during this CURRENT flare up in hostilities between Israel and the "Palestinians" (Iran, etc, really). And, as you have already submitted, the details of this latest mass casualty event are still sketchy, so…



Meanwhile:

IF this CURRENT flare up in hostilities between Israel and the "Palestinians" (Iran, etc, really) is "over" (the terms of the ceasefire are MET / ABIDED BY for a significant period of time), THEN a random unprovoked attack by Israel on some site (say, a peace festival, for example) in Gaza WOULD be grounds for condemnation (and you WOULD hear condemnation from this quarter in no uncertain terms).

Hope that ^ helps.





We. Told. Them. So.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

No. No it doesn’t help.

If you deliberately target and attack a crowd of civilians at a food store and kill 53 you need better justification than ‘Iran and Hamas started it”.

By this logic you may as well eradicate the entire population because Iran and Hamas did, indeed, “start it”.

And to categorise it as some sort of “national security activity” is beyond anything the IDFs PR department would try and hide behind.

Israel have every right to defend themselves to the max, but when you commit an atrocity you don’t get to play whataboutery.

Did the IDF deliberately attack and kill 53 civilians or did Hamas?

 

[Lazaran]

Did the IDF deliberately attack and kill 53 civilians or did Hamas?

I’m pretty sure we can memory hole the attack regardless of the details…

See: The pro-"Palestine" crowd memory holed 10/7 by the night of 10/7 or the morning of 10/8 at the latest…



We. Told. Them. So.

 

[ShandyLeer]

Did the IDF deliberately attack and kill 53 civilians or did Hamas?

Think the claim was exaggerated…..I read about several dead but not that many.

It matters not…..Lazarans explained the rules and apparently the IDF can kill all they like because “Irans fault”.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Think the claim was exaggerated…..I read about several dead but not that many.

It matters not…..Lazarans explained the rules and apparently the IDF can kill all they like because “Irans fault”.

The IDF isn’t exempt from the laws of war, but you should hold both combatants to the same standard. If Hamas is butchering civilians, call them out on it. Don’t automatically believe them when they blame their own atrocities on Israel.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Terrorist kills two at Yom Kippur services in Manchester.

This is what “globalize the intifada” looks like.

The murderer in Manchester was a Syrian named Jihad Al-Shamie.

Another man and a woman have been arrested on conspiracy charges.

 

[ShandyLeer]

The IDF isn’t exempt from the laws of war, but you should hold both combatants to the same standard. If Hamas is butchering civilians, call them out on it. Don’t automatically believe them when they blame their own atrocities on Israel.

That’s why I said in the first place I had no idea whether the claim as detailed by the OP was solid.

Hamas are vermin, that’s established fact as far as I’m concerned. As are the mullahs in Iran who gave this all the green light. I don’t hold the IDF to their standard, I hold them to a far better standard than that because I’ve got respect for them, which I don’t for the former.

That shouldn’t permit someone to shrug off the (as claimed) targeting of civilians in a food line as somehow not being the fault of the people who target them. You simply can’t target civilians and then blame the conflicts instigators…..it’s a licence to mow people down if you follow the logic.

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

Did the IDF deliberately attack and kill 53 civilians or did Hamas?

It looks like we’re being told that every time the IDF kills a child in Gaza - which has happened over 19,000 times since Hamas’s Oct 7th attack - it’s actually Hamas that is responsible (or MOAR responsible).

This is the ‘they started it’ defense. Which is likely to be as effective at the ICC as the ‘they made us do it’ argument. Or the ‘we killed 19,000 children in self defense argument.’

I’m being told that I’m biased by someone who believes only one side is responsible. I’m being told I have a grudge against Israel because I abhor the violence. I am being told that this is “because of reasons” nudge nudge wink wink.

This is why this conflict will almost certainly never end. The certainty of both Israelis and Palestinians that one side is right and the other is wrong. There is only one victim. There is only one aggressor. Only one side is justified. Only one side is to blame. Can’t you see it? You can’t see it? You must be biased then. You must hate us. I am reasonable but you, you are unreasonable. The death of our children is your fault, the death of your children is also your fault. When we pull a trigger, we are not to blame. When you pull a trigger, you are entirely to blame. On and on on.

By this point, the only people you can have an actual conversation with about this topic are Israelis who disagree with the Netanyahu government and Palestinians who despise Hamas. And those with no skin in the game. The rest is just pure tribal thinking and propaganda.

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

You simply can’t target civilians and then blame the conflicts instigators

You can if you are deeply committed to the idea that only one side (that will be your side, whoever you might be) is a victim and that your violence is forever legitimate.

I’d say that you’d have to think like that, in fact, otherwise you’d have to change your entire sense of self. And you’d have to recognize the humanity of the people you’re killing. That’s a tough thing to do.

Much easier to dehumanize. To self-justify. Children might die but you’d rather that than having to change your mind.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

That’s why I said in the first place I had no idea whether the claim as detailed by the OP was solid.

Hamas are vermin, that’s established fact as far as I’m concerned. As are the mullahs in Iran who gave this all the green light. I don’t hold the IDF to their standard, I hold them to a far better standard than that because I’ve got respect for them, which I don’t for the former.

That shouldn’t permit someone to shrug off the (as claimed) targeting of civilians in a food line as somehow not being the fault of the people who target them. You simply can’t target civilians and then blame the conflicts instigators…..it’s a licence to mow people down if you follow the logic.

It’s been claimed without evidence that the IDF has targeted civilians. Israel has been accused of war crimes without evidence for two years. The purpose of this scurrilous whisper campaign has been to provide a permission structure for antisemitic attacks like the one in Manchester today. “The Jews were asking for it.”

 

[AnomalyLady]

You can if you are deeply committed to the idea that only one side (that will be your side, whoever you might be) is a victim and that your violence is forever legitimate.

I’d say that you’d have to think like that, in fact, otherwise you’d have to change your entire sense of self. And you’d have to recognize the humanity of the people you’re killing. That’s a tough thing to do.

Much easier to dehumanize. To self-justify. Children might die but you’d rather that than having to change your mind.

Everyone loses in war. Period. It is who wins a tiny bit more and therefor wins.

If you look at both sides this is what you see-
Israel: a peaceful country. The only democracy in the Middle East. Most are Jews who teach their children peace.
Palestine: a hateful violent “country” who teaches children to hate Jews (that is called racism and antisemitism). They also have Hamas as their “army” who planned the rape (has been admitted), torture (has been confirmed), and murder (confirmed) of Jews.

Anyone who believes there are not losers in war can grab a “Make love not war” poster and have a cute little demonstration.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

You can if you are deeply committed to the idea that only one side (that will be your side, whoever you might be) is a victim and that your violence is forever legitimate.

I’d say that you’d have to think like that, in fact, otherwise you’d have to change your entire sense of self. And you’d have to recognize the humanity of the people you’re killing. That’s a tough thing to do.

Much easier to dehumanize. To self-justify. Children might die but you’d rather that than having to change your mind.

You’ve perfectly described the pro-Palestinian case: “October 7th was caused because Gaza was an open-air prison”. Except it wasn’t. “Israelis should be shunned because they’re starving the Gazans and committing genocide.” Except they aren’t.

For two years there have be an endless stream of excuses for the Palestinians, even though they are the aggressors, and an endless stream of vilification for the Jews.

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

It’s been claimed without evidence that the IDF has targeted civilians. Israel has been accused of war crimes without evidence for two years. The purpose of this scurrilous whisper campaign has been to provide a permission structure for antisemitic attacks like the one in Manchester today. “The Jews were asking for it.”

Have the International Association of Genocide Scholars been hoodwinked?

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cde3eyzdr63o.amp

Has the UN also become confused?

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-rele...itted-genocide-gaza-strip-un-commission-finds

What about Amnesty? They’ve got it all wrong?

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...another-milestone-for-accountability-efforts/

And leading Israeli human rights organizations B’Tselem and Physicians for Human Rights Israel - they too are biased? Maybe they hate Israel?

I’m sorry but I’m just a normal person. Who do you think I’m going to believe: on one side the UN, Amnesty, the IAGS, the BBC and B’Tselem and Physicians for Human Rights Israel or, on the other side, someone on the internet who says 19,000 dead Palestinian children is a whispering campaign?

 

[Lazaran]

It’s been claimed without evidence that the IDF has targeted civilians. Israel has been accused of war crimes without evidence for two years. The purpose of this scurrilous whisper campaign has been to provide a permission structure for antisemitic attacks like the one in Manchester today. “The Jews were asking for it.”

Hamas (Iran, etc, really) and the pro-"Palestine" crowd have tried to control the post 10/7 narrative since before the blood of those innocent children at the peace festival was even cold….



The pro-"Palestine" crowd here on the PB continue to try controlling the narrative by posting FARCICALLY biased "reports" along with their own FARCICALLY biased comments related to those "reports", and then they become FARCICALLY "outraged" when they receive pushback.

Beyond weird…



We. Told. Them. So.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Have the International Association of Genocide Scholars been hoodwinked?

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cde3eyzdr63o.amp

Has the UN also become confused?

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-rele...itted-genocide-gaza-strip-un-commission-finds

What about Amnesty? They’ve got it all wrong?

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...another-milestone-for-accountability-efforts/

And leading Israeli human rights organizations B’Tselem and Physicians for Human Rights Israel - they too are biased? Maybe they hate Israel?

I’m sorry but I’m just a normal person. Who do you think I’m going to believe: on one side the UN, Amnesty, the IAGS, the BBC and B’Tselem and Physicians for Human Rights Israel or, on the other side, someone on the internet who says it’s a whispering campaign and can’t bring herself to admit that 19,000 dead Palestinian children is also a tragedy?

The international Association of Geneocide Scholars was shown to be a sham weeks ago when it was revealed that anybody could join just by ponying up the membership fee. Similar debunkings have recently been done with the UN, Amnesty Internsional, and Doctors Without Borders.

The 19,000 dead children claim comes straight from Hamas and is unconfirmed by evidence.

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

The international Association of Geneocide Scholars was shown to be a sham weeks ago when it was revealed that anybody could join just by ponying up the membership fee. Similar debunkings have recently been done with the UN, Amnesty Internsional, and Doctors Without Borders.

The 19,000 dead children claim comes straight from Hamas and is unconfirmed by evidence.

Holy shit.

I’ve seen some tribal thinking before but I think this is probably a new low. I’ll admit, I’m genuinely shocked at that response.

Everyone is wrong. The international organization of 193 countries, the most trusted source of news in the world, the world’s leading human rights organization…Every impartial, decent, honest, hard-working, expert organization is wrong. And they all got it wrong independently of each other too.

And they must be wrong because they’re saying something that would make you have to reassess your sense of self.

I realize I am absolutely not going to change your thinking in any way and I’m going to stop talking to you now as it’s simply a waste of time. I hope one day that you see the world and your place in it a little more clearly. I say this sincerely: that’s going to be difficult for you but I wish you the best. I know you’re not a bad person but, please remember, being utterly convinced you’re not a bad person is exactly how you end up doing bad things. G’mar chativa tova.

 

[ShandyLeer]

Hamas (Iran, etc, really) and the pro-"Palestine" crowd have tried to control the post 10/7 narrative since before the blood of those innocent children at the peace festival was even cold….



The pro-"Palestine" crowd here on the PB continue to try controlling the narrative by posting FARCICALLY biased "reports" along with their own FARCICALLY biased comments related to those "reports", and then they become FARCICALLY "outraged" when they receive pushback.

Beyond weird…



We. Told. Them. So.

The “pro Palestine crowd” are always going to do this unfortunately. It’s what you’ve allowed universities to teach for a generation now, along with all the other blue haired bullshit that people blindly follow to fit in.

Keffiyehs, trans rights, eco warrioring, defund the cops, words are violence, white privilege - all part of a package you buy in whole…….or you’re a ‘nazi’.

All the same you were quite prepared when presented with the (wrong) hypothesis that 53 civilians had been deliberately targeted in a food line and killed, to out of hand absolve their alleged killers carte blanche without hearing another word.

Based entirely on allegiance, no interest in evidence.

This is what’s weird considering the standards you apply elsewhere.

 

[Lazaran]

The “pro Palestine crowd” are always going to do this unfortunately. It’s what you’ve allowed universities to teach for a generation now, along with all the other blue haired bullshit that people blindly follow to fit in.

Keffiyehs, trans rights, eco warrioring, defund the cops, words are violence, white privilege - all part of a package you buy in whole…….or you’re a ‘nazi’.

Um, do you "think" - Korea, Vietnam, Nixon, Watergate, Reagan, the war on drugs, trickle down economics, the transfer of wealth to the rich, both Bush presidencies, “Iran-Contra” , Iraq & WMDs, the treatment of President Obama, the full revelation of racial discrimination / disparity in America even after the civil rights act, DonOld’s first term, etc, etc, had anything to do with the revolutionary mindset of America’s EDUCATED youth???

All the same you were quite prepared when presented with the (wrong) hypothesis that 53 civilians had been deliberately targeted in a food line and killed, to out of hand absolve their alleged killers carte blanche without hearing another word.

Based entirely on allegiance, no interest in evidence.

This is what’s weird considering the standards you apply elsewhere.

How can you completely miss the point of everything I post???



Maybe go back and look at the post I originally commented on, and then my subsequent responses / comments.

See if you can spot your fuckup.

I’ll wait…but I won’t hold my breath…



We. Told. Them. So.

 

[Noor]

Have the International Association of Genocide Scholars been hoodwinked?

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cde3eyzdr63o.amp

Has the UN also become confused?

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-rele...itted-genocide-gaza-strip-un-commission-finds

What about Amnesty? They’ve got it all wrong?

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...another-milestone-for-accountability-efforts/

And leading Israeli human rights organizations B’Tselem and Physicians for Human Rights Israel - they too are biased? Maybe they hate Israel?

I’m sorry but I’m just a normal person. Who do you think I’m going to believe: on one side the UN, Amnesty, the IAGS, the BBC and B’Tselem and Physicians for Human Rights Israel or, on the other side, someone on the internet who says 19,000 dead Palestinian children is a whispering campaign?

Yes, I’m sorry they all have fallen for very slick propaganda funded by the UN, Iran and Qatar.
Even the flotilla has turned out to be a Hamas sponsored project.
If only the people who orchestrated this elaborated campaign against Isreal, Zionists and the Jewish diaspora used their talents for the good of the Gazan people, Gaza would be Singapore on the Mediterranean.
Don’t feel bad, the Nazis fooled a lot of people too.

 

[Lazaran]

Yes, I’m sorry they all have fallen for very slick propaganda funded by the UN, Iran and Qatar.
Even the flotilla has turned out to be a Hamas sponsored project.
If only the people who orchestrated this elaborated campaign against Isreal, Zionists and the Jewish diaspora used their talents for the good of the Gazan people, Gaza would be Singapore on the Mediterranean.
Don’t feel bad, the Nazis fooled a lot of people too.

I also suspect that those organizations are more than happy to myopically focus on the conflict -I.E - focus on Israel vs Gaza, as opposed to looking at the conflict in the totality of the region.

As long as the conflict is framed as: "Big powerful Israel vs little helpless Gaza", rather than the entire region against Israel, the narrative keeps a lid on the potential global intifada.

If all those organizations said: “We have determined that Hamas and Iran and Russia and China and Hezbollah and the Houthis and the Syrians and the other anti-Israel / anti-Jew nations in the region are PRIMARILY responsible for the ORIGINAL crisis AND the CONTINUING crisis”, I suspect there would be more widespread terrorist attacks around the globe (especially in the west).

It is more than likely that money is also changing hands in some cases when it comes to a few of the international organizations’ reports. (See also: FIFA, the IOC. etc)

It is what it is…



We. Told. Them. So.

 

[coati]

We. Told. Them. So.

Please remind me. Who is the "We", and who is the "Them", in your constantly repeated signature?

 

[Noor]

Please remind me. Who is the "We", and who is the "Them", in your constantly repeated signature?

Also what was told