Jesus CEO -Megachurches.

[English Lady]

My husband watched something this morning that got him so riled up he recorded it and played it back for me when I came home from church. It was a piece on "The Heaven and Earth show" (a religious affairs programme on the BBC) all about a megachurch in Dallas where it's like a mall with gyms, shops and allsorts.
Watching it made me cry - no wonder so many Americans are wary about Christianity, the consumerism and greed I saw in the piece was terrible.


Unfortunately there's not much on their website about it, so I set to googling. I found a few articles but this one is pretty well balanced:


http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5323597#top

but if you have time look at these too.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Business/story?id=617341&page=1


http://citypages.com/databank/23/1145/article10858.asp


All of them are old, all at least a year old but I was amazed by it all. I wondered what people here thought about megachurches, what the Christians and non-Christians alike think.

My view? I think it's dagerous to seperate ourselves form the world so much, cocooned away inside a fake world. We're meant to outreach, we're meant to be in there helping the poor, but these churches seem not to be focused on that, they seem far too focused on the self.

Also, it made me think of this:


Matthew21: 12-14 (message version)

Jesus went straight to the Temple and threw out everyone who had set up shop, buying and selling. He kicked over the tables of loan sharks and the stalls of dove merchants. He quoted this text:

My house was designated a house of prayer;
You have made it a hangout for thieves.

Now there was room for the blind and crippled to get in. They came to Jesus and he healed them.

I said to my husbband I like some of the ideas, taking Christ into their everyday lives, doing everything in thechurch -why not? But it just seems to me that the motivation is all wrong, it should all be about helping the community not isolating Christians away from the community.

A brief note: Please try and keep this debate civil or you'l lmake EL sad

 

[rgraham666]

EL, I regard the megachurches, and the impulse behind them, as coming from the Other Guy.

I look at them and I don't see Faith, Hope and Charity.

I see Pride, Wrath and Avarice.

Just sayin'.

 

[English Lady]

EL, I regard the megachurches, and the impulse behind them, as coming from the Other Guy.

I look at them and I don't see Faith, Hope and Charity.

I see Pride, Wrath and Avarice.

Just sayin'.

Well love, we must be looking through the same set of spectacles because thats how I see it too.

 

[rgraham666]

Well love, we must be looking through the same set of spectacles because thats how I see it too.

Well, I''m a heretic so that's my job. To look at things from a different perspective.

 

[TheEarl]

I don't know. It's not to my taste, but from the article, they appear to be open to all, wide-reaching and looking to improve people's lives. I didn't see anywhere that they made a profit and so I presume all money is reinvested or used in helping the local community and charities.

Seems a very American idea, but I can see a bit of good in it.

The Earl

 

[English Lady]

I don't know. It's not to my taste, but from the article, they appear to be open to all, wide-reaching and looking to improve people's lives. I didn't see anywhere that they made a profit and so I presume all money is reinvested or used in helping the local community and charities.

Seems a very American idea, but I can see a bit of good in it.

The Earl

The church on the programme I saw this morning made 60 million in profits -it wasn't made clear where those profits went. I don't see any real mention of helping charities though, it's all about expanding the church and helping themselves as far as I can make out. I'd love to be proved wrong though.

 

[cloudy]

I can't see how the pastor of a church that damn big can possibly "minister" to his flock.

Now you know why I'm so jaded when it comes to organized religion. It's not about religion anymore.

Well.....yes, it is. The religion of the Almighty Dollar, can I get an amen?!

 

[smy3th]

To me, the problem with such churches is that to keep the seats filled, the church has to cater to the desires of the masses, which are usually far less than ideal. The church becomes like a politician - they have to tell the people what they want to hear. Jesus didn't win any popularity contests. He made people mad - mad enough to kill him. His words hit them right where it hurt. When you have to shape your message around what will sell, you might as well just admit that you are into consumerism, not Christianity.

 

[English Lady]

I can't see how the pastor of a church that damn big can possibly "minister" to his flock.

Now you know why I'm so jaded when it comes to organized religion. It's not about religion anymore.

Well.....yes, it is. The religion of the Almighty Dollar, can I get an amen?!

Exactly!

I definitely got an insight into why some of you American folks are Jaded and see churches in the way you do. I don't think we have anything like a megachurch in England -not that i know about anyway.

 

[English Lady]

To me, the problem with such churches is that to keep the seats filled, the church has to cater to the desires of the masses, which are usually far less than ideal. The church becomes like a politician - they have to tell the people what they want to hear. Jesus didn't win any popularity contests. He made people mad - mad enough to kill him. His words hit them right where it hurt. When you have to shape your message around what will sell, you might as well just admit that you are into consumerism, not Christianity.

I've bolded the bit of what you've posted that really hit me when I read it. That is so true, I think.

 

[scheherazade_79]

I was in Orlando once, when the church down the road had its annual bazaar. Where I live, these kind of functions consist of a small stand selling fruit cakes, a raffle, a stall where old ladies sell their knitted garments, and a place where you can buy tea and biscuits. With this church, though, they were offering helicopter rides... Wouldn't it have been more Christian to encourage people to donate that money to charity, rather than usng it to get a skyborne thrill?

And then there was the Christian radio station out there - it can't have been cheap to run, yet all it did was blame the world's disasters on gay people, and pray for their souls to be sent straight to gay and lesbian hell.

If that means that every woman in hell is a lesbian... is there anyone out there willing to put a gun to my head? You can have my Xbox, my plasma ball and my light-up photo of Amsterdam of you pull the trigger

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I was in Orlando once, when the church down the road had its annual bazaar. Where I live, these kind of functions consist of a small stand selling fruit cakes, a raffle, a stall where old ladies sell their knitted garments, and a place where you can buy tea and biscuits. With this church, though, they were offering helicopter rides... Wouldn't it have been more Christian to encourage people to donate that money to charity, rather than usng it to get a skyborne thrill?

And then there was the Christian radio station out there - it can't have been cheap to run, yet all it did was blame the world's disasters on gay people, and pray for their souls to be sent straight to gay and lesbian hell.

If that means that every woman in hell is a lesbian... is there anyone out there willing to put a gun to my head? You can have my Xbox, my plasma ball and my light-up photo of Amsterdam of you pull the trigger

Careful - if there were a hell, you can bet they would clever about it. Like yeah, lotsa lesbians, but no one capable of having an O for all eternity.

(I will withhold further comment on the concept of hell, except that I think it's a very bad one.)

 

[scheherazade_79]

Careful - if there were a hell, you can bet they would clever about it. Like yeah, lotsa lesbians, but no one capable of having an O for all eternity.

Eternal foreplay could be fun, too

 

[S-Des]

It's cyclical. We had the same thing with the Jim & Tammy Faye Baker fiasco (if you don't remember them by name, she's the one with the worst make-up job ever!). They built an amusement park and other ridiculous, over the top dedications to God (which were much more about glorifying themselves). When Jim got busted in a sex scandle, it was discovered that they were syphoning millions (the most bizarre excess was a house for their dog that cost tens of thousands and had air conditioning). Their empire crumbled and people seemed to steer away from the big churches...for a while.

Now they're back. Everything is about building a bigger church and attracting the most people. I severed ties with a church I used to help a few years ago. They were holding services in a high school auditorium, while they were trying to acquire enough followers and money to afford a building. The minister was very nice and (I thought) devoted. He served as a chaplan in Iraq the first time around (right in the thick of things). I witnessed a number of unfortunate excesses that turned me off, there seemed to be a lot of ego running amock. The final straw came when they informed me they bought a new PA system. You're talking to someone who makes a living at it and does sound at some of the fanciest parties imaginable. However, I wasn't even asked for an opinion. They went out and bought the most expensive speakers they could find and a $40,000 recording studio board (when a $2500 board would have been ideal for what they were doing). I left in disgust.

Unfortunately, that's not the exception. Churches spending hundreds of thousands on equipment so they can broadcast on cable and the internet, tailoring their messages to attracting new traffic, silly promotions, etc... It's difficult to stomach. The hypocracy is obvious, but they just don't see it (nor do their followers). Makes me wonder if they are driving away as many people as they are attracting (I believe Jesus said something about that as well). Sorry EL, I don't think this is going anywhere for a while. Hopefully, incidents like this nitwit getting busted for hiring a gay prostitute (while decrying homosexuality) will remind people that it's not about going to the biggest church or having the prettiest lights. At least for a while.

 

[Boota]

EL, I think it's a good thing that you got to see that program. That is the kind of thing we deal with concerning religion in America on a daily basis. These people are the frontrunners in the Xtian movement that is trying to take over America, and then the world. That is not an exaggeration, either. They are coming right out and saying it. There is an evangelist named Randall Terry who who was part of Operation Rescue, the anti-abortion group. He was quoted as saying that when he or people like him finally take control of the government it will be the time for all non-Xtians to flee because they WILL be arrested, they WILL be tried, and they WILL be executed. Anyone who doesn't bow to the church will be killed. That kind of thing is scary enough coming from a crackpot on the fringe with no contacts, but this guy is the leader of a massive contingent of fundamentalist Xtians AND he has several friends in the current Presidential administration who would love to use their power to make his vision come true.

America is one more terrorist attack away from a theocracy. The American theocratic movement is grinding their axes even as I type this, hoping and waiting for it to happen. If anyone takes issue with what I've said as a biased opinion, fell free to look this up. It's all out there and they're not even trying to hide it. These are the people considered "true" patriots and that is very disturbing, considering how un-American EVERYTHING they say, do, and stand for really is.

It's not paranoia when they really are out to get you.

 

[Guest]

EL, I regard the megachurches, and the impulse behind them, as coming from the Other Guy.

I look at them and I don't see Faith, Hope and Charity.

I see Pride, Wrath and Avarice.

Just sayin'.

I agree.

And EL, you are indeed correct in that this display of greed and lust for power is one of the reasons so many are turning away from organized religion in the United States.

They've lost something in the journey, I think. They lost the reason they are supposed to be affiliated with God in the first place. Their reason for existence has become about the people delivering the message, not the message itself.



(Oh, and Rob? Those spectacles you are looking through? They aren't X-ray, are they? You'd better not bring those to Chicago)

 

[S-Des]

EL, I think it's a good thing that you got to see that program. That is the kind of thing we deal with concerning religion in America on a daily basis. These people are the frontrunners in the Xtian movement that is trying to take over America, and then the world. That is not an exaggeration, either. They are coming right out and saying it. There is an evangelist named Randall Terry who who was part of Operation Rescue, the anti-abortion group. He was quoted as saying that when he or people like him finally take control of the government it will be the time for all non-Xtians to flee because they WILL be arrested, they WILL be tried, and they WILL be executed. Anyone who doesn't bow to the church will be killed. That kind of thing is scary enough coming from a crackpot on the fringe with no contacts, but this guy is the leader of a massive contingent of fundamentalist Xtians AND he has several friends in the current Presidential administration who would love to use their power to make his vision come true.

America is one more terrorist attack away from a theocracy. The American theocratic movement is grinding their axes even as I type this, hoping and waiting for it to happen. If anyone takes issue with what I've said as a biased opinion, fell free to look this up. It's all out there and they're not even trying to hide it. These are the people considered "true" patriots and that is very disturbing, considering how un-American EVERYTHING they say, do, and stand for really is.

It's not paranoia when they really are out to get you.

Randall Terry is a nutjob and has very few followers (proportionately). Everyone says they want to take over and run things. You have a much better shot than he does. One terrorist attack away from theocracy? Come on. Every religion has it's extremists. For every one hardcore fanatic in the Evangelical movement, you have about 10,000 who are normal people, just making a living. These people don't want a theocracy any more than you do.

I've heard the same sorts of threats/claims from a dozen different groups. Somehow, because Bush got elected, people decided that everyone who voted for him was a Christian and was doing it to encourage him to make religious decision. That couldn't be further from the truth. The numbers show the religious votes were only part of a much larger base that voted for him (in two incredibly slim elections). And it's a serious stretch to assume the people who said they were religious, were so religious that they want to push extremism. Kerry barely lost and Gore received more votes. That's hardly an America on the verge of sliding into an abyss of religious fanaticism.

Sometimes, when you're being paranoid, you're just being paranoid.

 

[Alessia Brio]

America is one more terrorist attack away from a theocracy.

One more of the magnitude of 9/11 ... and I agree.

 

[Boota]

S-Des, Randall Terry is a nutjob. Very true. But he is only one of many with the same agenda in mind and one of many with the ears, hearts and minds of Senators, Congressmen, and yes, our President. Maybe he has a proportionately small number of followers... but with the other Xtian leaders with the same agenda AND their followers AND the political contacts they have it is not out of hand to think that they may have an actual shot of creating the theocracy that they openly speak of bringing about. I'm not normally a paranoid person, and I don't walk around jumping at shadows, but this movement is very real and it's a serious threat.

After 9-11 the church added to it's already immense power, mainly due to the fear and ignorance of most Americans. The current administration has done everything in it's power to frame this conflict as a Holy War, specifically using the term "crusade" to describe our military actions in the region. A very large number of churches have begun to guide their congregations into voting for politicians who promote the theocratic agenda. I'm not just talking the megachurches either. Ministers from all over the country have been telling their congregations that voting for Democrats or liberal Republicans is a sin against God. They are telling their flock (fucking herd animals) how to vote. And by most accounts the sheep are voting accordingly.

True, there is a large faction of Americans who are against this sort of thing, Xtian and non-Xtian. That doesn't negate their intentions or lessen their ability to use the political leverage they have achieved. Just look at the un-Constitutional legislation that is proposed, and often passed, on a regular basis in America. The FCC fines of $500,000 per offense since Janet Jackson's tit assaulted America's children were fueled entirely on the wrath of the religious right. The stranglehold of the religious right on the government pushed that through with no real challenge.

The fight against homosexual marriage is another attempt to insert biblical law into the Constitution. There is no Constitutional reason to ban any American citizen from something that is legal for others. This is just a battle that the right thinks it can win by playing on the fears of the Xtians. It is not just about legislation to legalize bigotry, that is just a bonus. It is about getting a foot in the door for changing the Constitution as it suits the needs of the religious right.

Faith-based initiatives is another term for taking power from the people and putting it in the hands of the church. It happens every day and on a massive scale. What seems harmless at first is actually the mandatory first steps in putting a theocracy in place.

Now, after coming around the bend, back to the main subject - megachurches. Megachurches exert an inordinate amount of influence over the small local churches. A lot of the people who are otherwise good, normal everyday working people are finding themselves and their ideals manipulated by the agendas of the megachurches. The megachurches are setting the social tone of the Xtian community on a national scale. They are the ones with the voice and they are making the rules.

I hope regular Xtians come to their senses and stand with the reasonable and rational people who oppose this agenda, but I'm not coutning on it.

 

[Pure]

my mother was quite partial to the two Schullers' ministry at the Crystal Cathedral in Orange County:

{the CC and its related groups have many websites,

www.crystalcathedral.org }

but here are a couple websites UNconnected to the official ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Cathedral

here’s an account of a theatrical production, there

http://www.ocweekly.com/features/features/church-du-soleil/18665/

 

[erise]

I can't see how the pastor of a church that damn big can possibly "minister" to his flock.

My thought exactly. What can a minister do, if the individuals of the community are too remote and too many to personally care about? He becomes a figurehead for dogmas, and nothing else.

 

[Pure]

i don't think 'big' can be an objection. do you object to a 'big' hospital? do you always choose a 'storefront' clinic because there is one doctor there, and he knows you?

obviously the head minister of a 'big' church has dozens of subministers, ministers' assistants, etc.; also he would have lots of administrative staff, to free up the ministers. just as the chief physician-administrator at a large hospital does.

 

[OhMissScarlett]

Exactly!

I definitely got an insight into why some of you American folks are Jaded and see churches in the way you do. I don't think we have anything like a megachurch in England -not that i know about anyway.

This is exactly the reason why a lot of us feel this way. I personally saw some of my family send their life savings away to the last wave of megachurches(Jim and Tammy Bakker) and I can't say I'm thrilled to see this resurgance of big business ministry making a comeback.

Living in the midwest, I see the interests of the religious right creeping into business, politics, media and education on a daily basis. Yet, I've heard the same conservative Christians complain that they're so opressed by this secular world they live in. Obviously, this isn't the case, since there seems to be a church on every other street corner in America.

 

[Pure]

big?

here is big. objections?

(does your church have an 'assistant sub-organist'?)

ministry staff at St. Pauls Cathedral, London {Anglican}

http://www.stpauls.co.uk/page.aspx?theLang=001lngdef&pointerID=10977T1S5PwMn6r8mo2a4caoKgTFHhqu

ST PAUL'S PERSONNEL

Dean and Chapter
Vacant (Dean) Canon Philip Buckler (Treasurer)
Canon Dr Edmund Newell (Chancellor)
Canon Martin Warner (Pastor)
Canon Lucy Winkett (Precentor)
Peter Chapman (Lay Canon)
Claire Foster (Lay Canon)
Dr Michelle Brown (Lay Canon)

Registrar
Major General John Milne

College of Minor Canons
The Revd Simon Reynolds (Succentor and Warden)
The Revd Claire Robson (Chaplain)
The Revd Laura Burgess (Sacrist)

Organists
Malcolm Archer (Organist and Director of Music)
Huw Williams (Sub Organist)
Tom Winpenny (Assistant Sub Organist) Jamas McVinnie (Organ Scholar)
Cathedral School
Andrew Dobbin (Headmaster)
Nicola Lovell (Bursar)

Surveyor to the Fabric
Martin Stancliffe

Honorary Financial Adviser
Kenneth Gardener

Clerk of the Works
Martin Fletcher

Director of Marketing and PR
Mark McVay

Head of Personnel
Ruth Moore

Head of Finance
Martin Pennington

Head of Information Technology
Gerald Wynter

Head Steward
Lynn Johnson

Dean’s Virger
Michael Page

Librarian
Joseph Wisdom

Events Coordinator
Vicki George

Educational Advisor
Laura Arends

Secretary to the Friends of St Paul’s
Patrick Wilkins

Head of Development, St Paul's Cathedral Foundation
Nigel Kirkup

 

[rgraham666]

There is an evangelist named Randall Terry who who was part of Operation Rescue, the anti-abortion group. He was quoted as saying that when he or people like him finally take control of the government it will be the time for all non-Xtians to flee because they WILL be arrested, they WILL be tried, and they WILL be executed. Anyone who doesn't bow to the church will be killed.

(Start oiling his guns)

When I hear this sort of thing I think of one of Robert A. Heinlein's aphorisms. "Your status in Hell is determined by the size of the honour guard you take with you."

If Mr. Terry is right and I'm going to Hell, and if it's at the hands of people like him, I intend to sit at the right hand of the Devil.

I'd rather go to Hell than knuckle under to him and his followers.