It's Us.

[Ramone45]

The sad truth is that Us culture and values are bad, and that's why we have school shootings. No laws can change that. No government can change that. It's sad but true. We were better in the past. Things have gotten worse because we have gotten worse. We've become secular and materialistic. Clearly, the breakdown of the traditional nuclear family is a factor. Divorce has widespread social effects. Just think about how we raise children. Both parents have to or want to work. We figuratively
warehouse infants at six weeks of age. When we pick the kid up at six o'clock, we're exhausted. We've lost our skills for raising mentally and physically healthy children. They've become fetish objects, things, possessions. We can't look outside of ourselves to solve this problem. We've rejected morals, and this is the result. No laws can help us. Definitely no politician can help us. I can't imagine what law could have stopped the Santa Fe tragedy short of confiscation or turning schools into prisons.
I get it. The truth hurts.

 

[HisArpy]

The sad truth is that Us culture and values are bad, and that's why we have school shootings. No laws can change that. No government can change that. It's sad but true. We were better in the past. Things have gotten worse because we have gotten worse. We've become secular and materialistic. Clearly, the breakdown of the traditional nuclear family is a factor. Divorce has widespread social effects. Just think about how we raise children. Both parents have to or want to work. We figuratively
warehouse infants at six weeks of age. When we pick the kid up at six o'clock, we're exhausted. We've lost our skills for raising mentally and physically healthy children. They've become fetish objects, things, possessions. We can't look outside of ourselves to solve this problem. We've rejected morals, and this is the result. No laws can help us. Definitely no politician can help us. I can't imagine what law could have stopped the Santa Fe tragedy short of confiscation or turning schools into prisons.
I get it. The truth hurts.

It doesn't have to hurt. Smoke a few more bowls of that legal weed and you won't care about any of that truth crap.

 

[beew]

The sad truth is that Us culture and values are bad, and that's why we have school shootings. No laws can change that. No government can change that. It's sad but true. We were better in the past. Things have gotten worse because we have gotten worse. We've become secular and materialistic. Clearly, the breakdown of the traditional nuclear family is a factor. Divorce has widespread social effects. Just think about how we raise children. Both parents have to or want to work. We figuratively
warehouse infants at six weeks of age. When we pick the kid up at six o'clock, we're exhausted. We've lost our skills for raising mentally and physically healthy children. They've become fetish objects, things, possessions. We can't look outside of ourselves to solve this problem. We've rejected morals, and this is the result. No laws can help us. Definitely no politician can help us. I can't imagine what law could have stopped the Santa Fe tragedy short of confiscation or turning schools into prisons.
I get it. The truth hurts.

It's the lack of a parallel spiritual or fullfiling life, imo .
As another example - my own Middle Age crisis and other major stresses hit me 10 times harder than others, because I didn't have any of those.

That's why I see Faith (Religion or some other personal philosophical system) as being so important.

 

[ThatsTheGuy]

I plead the 5th. I'm too poor to be materialistic.

 

[Hypoxia]

It's the lack of a parallel spiritual or fullfiling life, imo .

What Female Mass Shooters Reveal About Male Ones
"As mass shootings have become normalized, we have a tendency to attribute them to ‘toxic masculinity’—but that is not the whole story."

“Toxic masculinity can contribute to the problem but would not be primary cause,” Adam Lankford, a criminal justice professor at the University of Alabama, told The Daily Beast. “There are countries that are far worse than ours in terms of toxic masculinity, where spousal abuse and genital mutilation are legal, but they don’t have the same rates of mass shootings,” Lankford explained.

Rather, toxic masculinity may be one manifestation of a larger underlying characteristic of mass shooters; that is, feelings of being victimized and persecuted at the hands of a symbolic oppressor. In March, Lankford published a study in which he identified three main traits present in nearly all mass shooters: perceived victimization, desire for fame, and suicidality.

“Public mass shooters are attacking essentially symbolic targets, symbolic of some institution they believe have harmed them in the past,” Lankford said. For people like the perpetrator of the van attack in Toronto by a self-proclaimed “incel,” women become that symbolic group. Other potential targets include minorities, gay people or some “authority” such as one’s workplace or school. The YouTube shooter fits with this mold...

It's not just loners with boners, or faithless dweebs. It's a perception of personal oppression.

 

[WoundedKnee]

I plead the 5th. I'm too poor to be materialistic.

*chuckle*

The perfect circular argument.
The Progressive argument is, because I eschew materialism and am poor, I am rich!

 

[Debbie]

I agree with some of what you say but there are also parents who have been very hands on with their kids and yet their kids have become school shooters or murderers and they cannot comprehend what their offspring has done.

Some of the older posters will remember being latch key kids while their parents were working and most of them did not turn out to be murderers.

Sadly there are people who are bad apples and no amount of love or hands on parenting can prevent them from becoming what is part of their nature.

I also think some of these shootings are the shooter wanting attention and notoriety. It is so sad, disturbing and something that is just cruel to read and hear of another shooting and the loss of innocent lives.

 

[beew]

"As mass shootings have become normalized, we have a tendency to attribute them to ‘toxic masculinity’—but that is not the whole story."

It's not just loners with boners, or faithless dweebs. It's a perception of personal oppression.

I agree with some of what you say but there are also parents who have been very hands on with their kids and yet their kids have become school shooters or murderers and they cannot comprehend what their offspring has done.

Sadly there are people who are bad apples and no amount of love or hands on parenting can prevent them from becoming what is part of their nature.

You (and most people) agree on the fact that most perpetrators were malignant narcissists devoid of empathy. Most differences lie in the % ascribed to the nature versus nurture debate.

1. Is nature the main reason for it, the percentage of psychopaths being equal across societies and times? Therefore, the epidemy of mass shootings would be explained Mainly by contagion (copycats) and increased availability of firearms?

2. If nurture (Society) is also an important reason, then in what way?

Some posters suggested that these kids are now being raised to be self-absorbed and entitled, without boundaries or discipline.
Others are concerned about the amount of bullying going on in schools, the impersonal “you err once - one strike, three times you’re expelled, and there goes your future down the toilet.”
Others about the neoliberal society in which our kids grow up, which treats people as mere commodities and the dwindling of Religion and such.

*chuckle*
The perfect circular argument.
The Progressive argument is, because I eschew materialism and am poor, I am rich!

The more I think or read about these issues, the more confused I become. Because everyone’s points (even some of those brought up by the pro gunners - whose level of denial often irritates me -) make sense.

 

[WoundedKnee]

In mathematical terms, this like so many other issues are chaotic issues.

This means that a topic like gun violence is a feedback loop; every current state is based upon a recursive examination of the previous state until you get back to the initial seed (state). Now the religious would say that is Cain and Able, but the original condition is, of course, closer to human behavior as regards to survival (of the species).

Those who believe that they can abrogate human nature tend towards very simplistic explanations of the current state, i.e., the problem is gun ownership and thus the initial condition (seed) is the gun itself, so once the gun is removed, then the problem is cured.

But clearly, we can see, that is not true for it addresses only one factor, a lot like those whom believe that the elimination of man-made CO2 emissions will "save" the planet.

 

[coati]

We've become secular and materialistic.

You got the materialistic factor right, but missed several big marks.

First, materialism combined with dogmatic and conflict-based forms of forms religion is contributing to extreme violence problems both here in the U.S. and in the Middle East.

Second, overpopulation-- humans are now dominating and over-exploiting the world's ecosystems rather than recognizing that they are a part of these ecosystems, not the lord of them. Competition for the rapid consumption of natural resources is contributing to a dog-eat-dog world among humans

Third, many people are now living in a virtual world more than in a real world that involves healthy contacts with other people and nature and a recognition of science and facts.

There are a lot of other related factors that cause people to snap in a big way, including easy access to guns in this country. The dog-eat-dog approach to society, again. Kill or be killed.

Most so-called secular people in the U.S. are actually ethical people who embody the classical aspects of the Golden Rule. Blaming the problem mainly on secular people is what is also taking place among fundamentalists in the Middle East.

 

[HisArpy]

You got the materialistic factor right, but missed several big marks.

First, materialism combined with dogmatic and conflict-based forms of forms religion is contributing to extreme violence problems both here in the U.S. and in the Middle East.

Second, overpopulation-- humans are now dominating and over-exploiting the world's ecosystems rather than recognizing that they are a part of these ecosystems, not the lord of them. Competition for the rapid consumption of natural resources is contributing to a dog-eat-dog world among humans

Third, many people are now living in a virtual world more than in a real world that involves healthy contacts with other people and nature and a recognition of science and facts.

There are a lot of other related factors that cause people to snap in a big way, including easy access to guns in this country. The dog-eat-dog approach to society, again. Kill or be killed.

Most so-called secular people in the U.S. are actually ethical people who embody the classical aspects of the Golden Rule. Blaming the problem mainly on secular people is what is also taking place among fundamentalists in the Middle East.

This is complete and utter trash. None of it explains why a 17 year old kid takes a gun and starts killing his classmates in school.

He has no connection with the overuse of natural resources. At 17 he's more interested in getting laid for the first time than saving/raping the planet. Nor does he care that the planet is "overpopulated". Social media seems to be playing a part but those who promote social media claim that nothing has shown that it's a causal factor in youth violence.

Access to guns isn't a cause or THE REASON the kid loses it. You equate cause and effect to be the same things when you say this kind of nonsense.

All in all, the closest you got was "virtual world", taking that to mean "social media". And you missed it there too because you didn't even account for the fact that social media makes cyber-bullying much easier with almost no recourse by the victims.

The only thing these kids have in common is that they are SCREAMING for help and all anyone does is pat them on the head. And your solution is to do nothing about that at all.

 

[richard_daily]

Religion is a method of control and coercion.

Perhaps this is just the last vestiges being thrown off?

Sounds like we'll have a better society soon.

 

[coati]

This is complete and utter trash. None of it explains why a 17 year old kid takes a gun and starts killing his classmates in school.

Yes it does. Kids who do this kind of thing have little connection to the natural world. They are lost in an overwhelmingly impersonal and materialistic machine that is largely based on social Darwinism.

Dog-eat-dog. Kill or be killed. I got mine, so fuck you. These are the messages that our children get. Most can deal with it and put it into perspective. Some can't.

This also contributes to the suicide trends.

 

[richard_daily]

Yes it does. Kids who do this kind of thing have little connection to the natural world. They are lost in an overwhelmingly impersonal and materialistic machine that is largely based on social Darwinism.

Dog-eat-dog. Kill or be killed. I got mine, so fuck you. These are the messages that our children get. Most can deal with it and put it into perspective. Some can't.

This also contributes to the suicide trends.

This sound exactly like Botany Boy.

 

[bestone4ever]

*chuckle*

The perfect circular argument.
The Progressive argument is, because I eschew materialism and am poor, I am rich!

First off, no progressives have ever made that argument so you're a liar.
Secondly, you are clueless as to what a progressive person believes.

 

[beew]

I think that you've introduced a couple of your own biases your age group, atheism -as did I, WK is right- but the general message was valid.

1. Yes it does. Kids who do this kind of thing have little connection to the natural world. They are lost in an overwhelmingly impersonal and materialistic machine that is largely based on social Darwinism.
.

2. Dog-eat-dog. Kill or be killed. I got mine, so fuck you. These are the messages that our children get. Most can deal with it and put it into perspective. Some can't.
This also contributes to the suicide trends.

1 Our entertainment industry and modern society teach us to look for a sense of belonging and self-worth in things that are brittle and can easily make us unsettled: “You belong and are valued If you do well in school, If you have a good job or earn lots, If you romantic crush loves you in return.”
People aren't taught to also invest their emotional energy into more permanent things that would rarely disappoint them. (family, nature/animals, religion or creative expression or whatever clicks with one’s personna or age group) . Instead, we are taught to view them as 'weekend hobbies' or memberships to clubs.

2. I think, too, that our modern societies encourage a cut-throat me and me attitude towards ‘making it’, and scorn ’losers’. Just look at reality shows like Survival Island and The Big Brother House.

"Most can deal with it and put it into perspective. Some can't."
That’s the impact that I would envision on these kids as well, but others claim that some of them are becoming more self-centered and lacking in empathy as a result.

First, materialism combined with dogmatic and conflict-based forms of forms religion is contributing to extreme violence problems both here in the U.S. and in the Middle East.

It’s not just religion. Both atheists and religious groups are becoming more radicalized, intolerant and materialistic (as in concrete, instead of focusing on one’s place in the Universe).

 

[beew]

It's also interesting that those ISIS recruits - Muslim kids committed atrocities because they believe in their society,

whereas those Western kids (including Russian kids who committed school knife attacks) committed atrocities because they felt frustrated by it.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

I listened as the LT Governor of TX ascribed the shooting to the devaluation of human life because of abortion. This sort of cultural process (assigning meaning to an event and the production and dissemination of meaning in general) is the problem.

This completely intellectually, socially and rationally dishonest effort to manufacture false meaning is at the root of a lot of the social ills we have, because it falsely colors their interpretation. It is irresponsible and dangerous.

The OP is a reflection of this very issue. For example - Being more secular as a people has nothing to do "bad" culture and values. In fact, the opposite is true. Secular people advocate public policy more in keeping with the teaching of Christ than Evangelicals and conservative Catholics (who are mostly converts from the Evangelicals as political cover). Just look at the teachings of this Pope and the "conservative Christian" reaction to see it in action.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

Here is more hurtful truth:

In a rural region about 200 miles from Portland Oregon the North Bend School District is facing what are being termed “serious discrimination” charges for “forcing at least one LGBTQ student to read the Christian bible as punishment.” The discrimination aspect entails allegations that the district singles out LGBT students for “separate or different rules of behavior, sanctions, or other treatment;” such as a school administrator “forcing LGBT students to read the Christian bible while they were being disciplined.”

No-one should be surprised at this latest imposition of religion in the public school system, or that LGBTQ students have been singled out and “openly discriminated against and forced to read the Christian bible” both as a form of punishment and to “demean LGBTQ students.” There is a crusade at the federal level to force evangelical teaching on public school students as the be all, end all “national moral authority,” as well as to inculcate America’s youth into the superstitious worldview of bigots according to a religion.

Another aspect of this atrocity in a secular nation is that, save a few local and regional media outlets, this all-too-common story has been woefully under-reported, if reported at all. That dearth of reporting is part and parcel of why evangelical extremists, religious right activists, and Republicans nationwide continue flouting the Constitution with veritable impunity. Sadly, although they only make up a minority of the population, the evangelical theocrats now co-own the federal government with the Kochs and corporations and if Republicans are not thrown out of power quickly, this particular incident is going to be a regular occurrence. And if the Christian Dominionists achieve their goal, it will not be unconstitutional, it will be the law of the land and reporting it as discrimination will be a crime.

 

[WoundedKnee]

beew, are you now not getting enough example of what I observed?

It's "religion!" It's "discrimination!"

lol...