"Its the will of God"

[Todd]

Sorry I am taking this thought from KillerMuffin's thread so that I can try and explain it. I will try not to be preacher or use any scripture here, nor will I argue the existance of God. So the following works of the hypothesis of the God of the Bible existing, not the catholic God, nor the Baptist God, nor the any denomination God, just the plain old God of the Bible.


Will of God by Todd from reading the Bible.


God existed out there by himself in nothingness.
He got bored it was Just himself in three parts but one God, He was Father, Son, and Holy ghost. He was all three but He was only one. So after awhile, I do not know how long, He got bored talking to himself. So He decided He wanted companionship and someone to look after. He decided to created everything there is, was and ever will be. After he was done he decided to make man and woman and gave it all to them.

It was great no pain no suffering. All they had to was sit, talk, walk with God. The will of God was for them to sit, walk and talk with them and take care of all thier needs. God thought though he didn't want robots, He wanted people who would sit, walk, talk with Him on thier own not forcing them. So he decided to make one tree that would be bad for them. He explained the results if they ate that they no longer could sit, walk, talk with Him if they decided to eat the tree. He allowed them to make the choice.

Well the people got bored with sitting, walking and talking with God and thought that doing thing there way. God said all right and instead of holding everything perfect as he had decided to let the world begin its downward spiral seeing as the people were not interested in a perfect place to live.

God still wanted to be able to sit, walk, talk so he tried to do things to help his favorites, but no matter what He did they still wanted to do things their own way so He let them.

4400 years later still trying people still didn't understand God wanted to sit, walk, talk with them and provide for all their needs. God longed so much for the people to like Him, but they continually thought that they could come up eith a better plan. Finally God thought, what if I send Myself to die for them maybe then they will see how much I love them, a few understood but the majority still did not understand.

Those who didn't understand cam along and and read the record that God left of His attempts to love the people who refused to love him. They read it with thier own understanding and thought because they didn't love God that his actions of letting people do thier own thing must mean that God did not love them. they developed a thoery form that that if anything bad happened to then It was the will of God, even though if they had read the whole story God was telling they would see that God's will was for them to love Him freely so that He could take care of them. But so far this has yet to happen, because people always think we have a better way.

 

[Unclebill]

God existed out there by himself in nothingness.

And who or what created him?

 

[Todd]

, nor will I argue the existance of God. So the following works of the hypothesis of the God of the Bible existing, not the catholic God, nor the Baptist God, nor the any denomination God, just the plain old God of the Bible.

 

[fgarvb1]

if i was pined down and had to make some guesses

1.God created ADAM {hearafter reffered to as mankind} so that he could have his pick of them to replace the fallen angels.

2.Mankind and the angles have free will.

3.God created the angles also.

4.The "word" and jesus are the one and same.

5.The ones god picks to go to heaven will be in charge of the angles. for some reason god likes us more.

6.Not everyone is called by God. Not everyone called cares.
They were picked out before the earth was formed.

7.The main things God cares about are faith and trust in him

9.If god picks you out to do something for him you are in deep shit.

10.Mankind got so far away from God after the garden he no longer understood them. that part of the reason jesus was sent.

........I've got to go to work now, I will finish this later
........ Go ahead make some guesses............

 

[Unclebill]

Re: if i was pined down and had to make some guesses

...10.Mankind got so far away from God after the garden he no longer understood them. that part of the reason jesus was sent.

So much for the omniscient deity.

 

[Thumper]

Paradoxes? Paradoxen?

Preordination or self determination?

My father's church and his beliefs state the following:

1. God is Pure, no evil or sin has tainted him.
2. God's Love knows no bounds
3. God is omniscient, omnipotent and eternal.
4. God knows everthing that was and will be and there is a set plan.
5. God created everthing that exists..angels,humans, animals earth, heaven, hell and universe
6. Man has a choice in whether he achieves grace or not

Using if-then logic...

If God created everything and is all knowing then how did he not see Lucifer's turn to evil?

If God is pure good and untouched by evil, then why or how did he create evil or even conceive of it?

If God knew our fate before we as individual souls were created and whether or not we would make the choice to follow his word then why crteate the souls he knew would end up in hell. That is cruelty and contradicts the God is Pure and Good and Loving tenet.

If God is merciful and loving and omnipotent, then why create hell and then create souls to send there. And if all powerful why not make all follow the word and live in peace and harmony...

My father is convinced I am going to hell...and that he is going to experience eternal joy in heaven....I ask him how he could enjoy one minute in heaven if he knew any of his loved ones were in eternal pain and anguish...I couldn't bear it.

He has no answers..

I believe there is a God and a soul that lives on after death. We are here to learn, sort oflike a school lesson. We don't know what the lesson is for each of us but that will come when we die and we gain the understanding. Soul growth is what I, and others that believe as I do, call this process. We learn from our experiences here and in the next stage. We have the choice of staying there or coming back. God is a part of all of us....

FYI Bill...on another thread awhile back you stated that the Romans crucified Jesus for treason. The Romans crucified Jesus at the request of the Jewish leaders. Pilate said he found no guilt in Jesus. Jesus and his followers and teachings were a direct threat to the Pharisees and Herod...

Jesus was never a political figure...the closest he came to a political statement was when asked if the Jews should pay taxes to Rome...That is why the Religious Right needs to butt out of politics...

He simply said, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's"

meaning...Why waste your life pursuing, hordeing and worrying about money when you will take none of it with you...

On your deathbed will you honestly fret over the few measly dollars that escaped your grasp or that you paid in taxes..or will you regret the lost opportunities to make someone's life a little better or the time lost in pursuing wealth and being afraid of losing it.

If you don't believe in God or a life beyond this one then isn't even more urgent that we make this world a better place for those who come after. What a waste to dedicate your whole life to getting rich and then to die without doing anything good with it...Sad..very sad

 

[Todd]

Re: Paradoxes? Paradoxen?

Using if-then logic...

this will be too simplistic for people looking for a complex answer.

If God created everything and is all knowing then how did he not see Lucifer's turn to evil?

He knew and saw it coming, but again as said before He did not want robots He wanted his creation to to worship him freely.

If God is pure good and untouched by evil, then why or how did he create evil or even conceive of it?

Evil is an absense of Good, His creation created evil by removing goodness from itself. He did not create evil but allowed it, because he allowed Free will to exist.

If God knew our fate before we as individual souls were created and whether or not we would make the choice to follow his word then why crteate the souls he knew would end up in hell. That is cruelty and contradicts the God is Pure and Good and Loving tenet.

Every souls is created with an opportunity to choose to love God. If He created only those that would choose Him than He may as well create robots, again something god did not want, we wants people to freely choose him. Hell was not created for us, hell was created for Satan and the fallen angels. We simply choose Hell for our selves when we refuse heaven.

If God is merciful and loving and omnipotent, then why create hell and then create souls to send there. And if all powerful why not make all follow the word and live in peace and harmony...

Because he does not want robots. If you have children, do youwant them to mindless do every thing you say or do you want them to choose to do it becaue they love you and know you love them?

My father is convinced I am going to hell...and that he is going to experience eternal joy in heaven....I ask him how he could enjoy one minute in heaven if he knew any of his loved ones were in eternal pain and anguish...I couldn't bear it.

As I said my answer would be to simplistic for you.

[Edited by Todd on 01-06-2001 at 02:27 PM]

 

[Todd]

Re: if i was pined down and had to make some guesses

1.God created ADAM {hearafter reffered to as mankind} so that he could have his pick of them to replace the fallen angels.

I believe this to be incorrect. God does not 'pick and choose' He would have all of us, if we would choose.

2.Mankind and the angles have free will.


3.God created the angles also.

4.The "word" and jesus are the one and same.

5.The ones god picks to go to heaven will be in charge of the angles. for some reason god likes us more.

again God does not 'pick' us, He allows us to choose or refuse Him.

6.Not everyone is called by God. Not everyone called cares.
They were picked out before the earth was formed.

again we were not picked, but our choices were known. Everyone is called, not everyone hears or answers the call

7.The main things God cares about are faith and trust in him

9.If god picks you out to do something for him you are in deep shit.

10.Mankind got so far away from God after the garden he no longer understood them. that part of the reason jesus was sent.

God always understands mankind, it is mankind that no longer understood God. Which He saw from the beginning and planned on sending himself as Jesus to try and remind mankind of himself once more.

........I've got to go to work now, I will finish this later
........ Go ahead make some guesses............

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Of all the scenarios I think I like the earth on the back of a turtle story better. No wait! I like the one about how earth is land in a dish of water surrounded by moving spheres of influence that hold a few hundred planets and stars. I also like the one about the telluric worm which controls all of the earth's energy. Or maybe Chaos and Time really did give birth the Gods, and Zeus is still in Olympus. Or the Asian story of a blanket over the sky with holes in it letting us see the campfires of the Gods. Then there was the time Brahman...

It couldn't be what five millennia of learning has told us, could it? That the Universe was borne of a singularity and behaves via simple rules of quantum mechanics that occasionally fashion sentient beings prejudiced by their few senses to think the Cosmos spins around them? No, it couldn't be that simple.

How about an alternate universe created when the sky fell on Chicken Little? Yeah, that's gotta' be it.

 

[Todd]

Dixon,

What caused the singularity?

 

[Thumper]

Too simplistic...

Todd ...you did not solve the paradoxical situations I presented...like my father and everyone else that accepts the bible literally he is a robot.

If God wanted us to exercise free will, then explain "Gods Plan", "Gods Will", preordination and the demand for "blind" faith that is put forth by a literal interpretation of the bible.

and, by the way, how are you privy to what God wants and what God intends?

According to the Bible, God does indeed want robots. Questioning God is a sin.

Mankind is learning and getting better at being human...

We have at our disposal the ability to kill millions ina matter of minutes...can you imagine anybody having that ability even two hundred years ago. They would have done it without even questioning the morality of it...

 

[Todd]

Re: Too simplistic...

I told you it would be to simplistic for you to accept. Human nature always looks for the hardest most complicated way to explain why something is the way it is. Hence, Quatum Dynamic sublapsarian theorys.

Todd ...you did not solve the paradoxical situations I presented...like my father and everyone else that accepts the bible literally he is a robot.

If God wanted us to exercise free will, then explain "Gods Plan", "Gods Will", preordination and the demand for "blind" faith that is put forth by a literal interpretation of the bible.

God's Plan: For us to love Him freely

God's will: For us to choose or refuse Him

Preordination according to the Bible is simply He Knows what your going to do before you do, before you ever existed. So He works with what you choose.

"Blind Faith": Opening ones eyes and seeing that it isn't chance or circumstance that got us here.


and, by the way, how are you privy to what God wants and what God intends?

I read the bible with out anyone telling me what means what, took it as it came, understood its time line. And by doing that anyone can see what God wants and intends. Its when religions tell people how the bible should be read or what the bible means that causes what God wants and intends to become clouded.

According to the Bible, God does indeed want robots. Questioning God is a sin.

If God wanted robots he would never have given freewill and we would still all be in the garden of eden. Questioning God isn't a sin, denying God is our sin.

Mankind is learning and getting better at being human...

Getting better? sitting on the verge of WWIII all we need is one bumbling idiot to get nervous and we are wiped out. We have desiease that never existed 200 years ago, we are wiping out the enivronment, widdling away our natural resources. Yeah sure we are getting better at being human , sure we are

We have at our disposal the ability to kill millions ina matter of minutes...can you imagine anybody having that ability even two hundred years ago. They would have done it without even questioning the morality of it...

BTW I was raised in a militant athiest family, and educated to be athiest, the bible wa just a book to be read just as you would the Brother's Grimm, Mother Goose, or Dr. Suess. and thats how I read it, and thats how it made sense. It is only sense then that I have had problems with churches and religions putting thier own distinct spin on it.

 

[Bs]

I should'nt. I really should'nt respond... but here goes....

GOD & Religion are what you make it no more, no less.

Oh and By the Way, When I want a lesson in theology(sp) I'll go to church or E-mail Deborah.

And just so you know this is not.....

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Dixon,

What caused the singularity?

There are three dozen different models that answer that question (regarding what agency started the Big Bang) and all of them are better than "A Big Giant Lonely Guy".

Just having fun here, Todd. Once again, faith cannot be measured by science, and I won't try. Just me talking here. You know, the whole one voice crying out in the wilderness thing...

 

[Todd]

Dixon,

What caused the singularity?

There are three dozen different models that answer that question (regarding what agency started the Big Bang) and all of them are better than "A Big Giant Lonely Guy".

Just having fun here, Todd. Once again, faith cannot be measured by science, and I won't try. Just me talking here. You know, the whole one voice crying out in the wilderness thing...

Well just humor me a little more please, pick your favorite out of the 36 available causes of the singularity that started it all and explain it in real simple terms for us 'uneducated & brainwashed folk'.

I do not knock science cause the bible is a science text book, it teaches microbiology, macrobiology, astronomy, physics, and a lot of stuff that 'religion' would like to try and say isn't in there.

 

[Thumper]

Ummm OK Todd...

Well just humor me a little more please, pick your favorite out of the 36 available causes of the singularity that started it all and explain it in real simple terms for us 'uneducated & brainwashed folk'.

I do not knock science cause the bible is a science text book, it teaches microbiology, macrobiology, astronomy, physics, and a lot of stuff that 'religion' would like to try and say isn't in there.

Excuse Me? Science?

You doubt quantum mechanics? The residents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki believe in it. The research that brought you the bomb led to quantum mechanics. BTW Do you actually believe the world is only 4400 years old? And that people lived for 900 years?

Preordination according to the Bible is simply He Knows what your going to do before you do, before you ever existed. So He works with what you choose.

If he knew this and created us with that in mind it really isn't a choice..we are merely actors playing out his script. No choice. He works with what he chose for us. Why create a soul knowing you are going to send it to hell? If that is an example of love and mercy I will pass thank you.

I read the bible with out anyone telling me what means what, took it as it came, understood its
time line. And by doing that anyone can see what God wants and intends. Its when religions tell
people how the bible should be read or what the bible means that causes what God wants and
intends to become clouded.

And who wrote the Bible? Please don't say God. I really don't think the great one has been working in the publishing houses lately. That book has been interpreted a million ways from Sunday and rewritten countless times. The translations and syntax leave all kinds of room for error and ambiguity.

"Blind Faith": Opening ones eyes and seeing that it isn't chance or circumstance that got us here.

Blind faith=opening ones eyes? Whatever..

You are right Todd...your answers are too simplistic and vague. You never answered any of my questions with anything but the same non sequitur replies I get from any so called religious expert.

It has been my experience that most if not all of the Fundamentalist types are rather simple minded. A complex question seems to cause them to go into a "default" mode of thinking. Unable to accept new data or think along other lines they begin to revert to "Well the bible says..."
Thinking that is the be all and end all of any discussion..

Even Deborah never answered these questions..she went off on a tangent about a definition of hell.

Yes Todd we are getting better...we have the means to destroy the planet and we work (most of the rational people) to prevent that. We used to condone slavery, we no longer do. We used to consider other races less than human and had no problem exterminating them (Native Americans) now we find such things abominable. We almost drove the great whales to extinction but we halted the slaughter (for the most part anyway). The diseases we are experiencing existed. They were probably not as prevalent but then again the world is more mobile and intermingled hence they spread quicker. They also mutate (read: "evolve") in response to their encironment. We have eliminated some diseases also. You only see the world as collapsing because it serves your purposes for people to believe it thus. How can you get the masses to believe you have the solutions if they don't believe there are big problems. There are problems but at least we recognize them as such and are working on the solutions.