It's not a good sign when Israel

[Kennundrum]

How long ago was then end of Moa's Long March that ended with Chiang Kai-shek moving his Nationalist Chinese government to Tawain? 60 years? The PRC considers Tawain as a run away province and has the stated objective of "returning it to the Middle Kingdom".

If China lacks the political will to accomplish this, do you really think that they're willing or able to take on the US and its Pacific Rim allies?

China has an unbroken history of 3000+ years. Taiwan will be returned to the Middle Kingdom, you're just not looking at it from the perspective of a nation with as much patience and perspective as China. They'll either beat Taiwan into submission, or buy it outright.

Points for looking at it from an *almost* unmilitary point of view though, nice!

 

[Homburg]

The Oxford Dictionary defines "superpower" as "any of the few most powerful and influential nations of the world".

Having established that by the definition of the word, there are multiple superpowers, what leads you to believe that the USA is "the world's great superpower"?

To be the most influential nation in the world, the USA would need to be loved, respected, or feared by more people/countries than any other nation. To compare the USA's influence to China, in these terms, isn't favourable to your claim of the USA being the world's great superpower.

China can in no way project force like the USA can. China has nukes. Nukes rock at wrecking your opponent from distance. Yay. Nukes can't take ground. Neither can China, as it cannot get it's forces across the Pacific meaningfully.

So while China is an economic superpower, and influential politically, it honestly lacks the full military capability to be a proper "great" superpower. The EU is an economic powerhouse much like China, but, similar to China, it cannot project force in the same way. The only other nation-state that could project power similarly was the USSR, and, well, they just don't have it together anymore.

The USA is *a* superpower, no doubt about it, and noone in this thread has suggested otherwise. This is different to the statement "the world's great superpower" which implies singular, and/or greatest. There was a period after the fall of the USSR when the USA was the world's great superpower. This time has passed.

To address your comical strawman argument regarding China being loved, if you read the sentence from my previous post, you'll see it says "need to be loved, respected, or feared", with a certain amount of emphasis on the "or". China is feared, and somewhat respected. It predictably gets no love for the atrocities you've mentioned. What you either left out of your response, or fail to understand is that, internationally the USA is neither loved or respected, simply feared.

Being loved is no requirement to be great. John McEnroe was not loved, yet was unequivocably one of the greatest tennis players of all time.

Not defending the argument vis a vis China and being loved, just saying that being loved is not a worthwhile metric to measure superpower or great.

China has respect because of the weight of her history, and the vigour with which she has been pulling herself into the world stage, economically, industrially and politically. That also brings fear, as it's hardly the most liberal of societies, which you've extravagantly pointed out.

China's history is basically meaningless on the world stage. China has respect because it is massive, wealthy, and influential. And, if you have the misfortune of sharing a border or coastal waterway with it, it is also bloody dangerous.

The USA has lost any measure of respect that they "earned" in the first and second world wars, by being continual bullies and aggressors. It is still feared; fear of reprisals against percieved/imagined/invented threats, almost exclusively to benefit American expansionism. This expansion has come at a cost that cannot be maintained. The 11 carriers you mentioned each cost, on average, $160m each year to maintain. They also seem rather vulnerable to somewhat cheaper technology.

America has engaged in naval wargames with a number of cuntries in posession of diesel submarines , and each time the opposing country has managed at least 1 carrier kill. With a single carrier costing what 5 diesel-powered subs cost, and the anual maintenance being almost double that of the subs, as a military investment these 11 carriers are somewhat of a liability.

This is really far off the mark. Almost absurdly so, in fact. Naval power is THE single necessary power to achieve to properly project force. Yes, truly long-distance air power can bomb the bejeebers out of an enemy power, and nukes can flatten large tracts of land, but effective military operations, and thus force projection, requires boots on the ground, plain and simple. The only really efficient and effective way to put boots on the ground with full support is by water.

Water means carriers, as no better form of force projection exists on the seas, and that force projection is required to defend troop/equipment ships. Carriers are too flexible, too useful, and have an incredible range of effect.

And $160m/year is worth it to pay for them. You are looking for ways to undercut carriers, but when you look at how bloody useful they are, the cost is worth it. There's nothing out there that can come close to doing what a proper carrier can do. Look at that computer on your desk. Yep, it's valuable, but a $3 hammer will smash the crap out of it. Does the existence of that $3 hammer somehow invalidate the worth of your computer?

The military aspect is also restricted due to America's political situation. The American public have(justifiably) shown in both Vietnam and Iraq that they have no stomach for large casualties on their own side. In a conflict with China, it can be assured that casualties would be massive on both sides, but also that America's spirit would break first. China would happily send millions to die to win- the contemporary American public couldn't/wouldn't stomach 100000 of their own dead.

This is largely true, but, as was already said, discounts the American taste for blood when something serious occcurs. We are pissed about the 4000+ dead because, to paraphrase Cohen's song, everybody knows this war is bullshit.

Looking at the financial situation, as you said America is #2 in the world to the EU as far as GDP. Sure, the EU has more mouths to feed, but what matters is they have more money to spend on the international stage, which means more influence. The US economy, as I'm sure you're aware, is on the slide, in no small way due to it's mammoth, and arguably mispent military budget. China's economy is booming, has a military that the US is afraid of, and costs only 1.7% of their GDP, as opposed to 3.9% of the US's. Given another few decades, and China too will overtake the USA in the financial stakes.

We are fucking up in the economic arena. That said, China will not allow us to slide too far, and it is so weird to say that. They need the US to be functional to keep their economy functional.

America's foreign policy has left them with few political allies. The US military is overrated, and certainly not enough to take on either of the other two obvious superpowers, and financially in a downward spiral.

You have gone far too far here. China, as I said, cannot project force properly. They can no more invade us than I can jump out of my chair and fly around the room. The only parties that have anything meaningful to fear from China militarily are those with the misfortune to share a border with them.

As to the EU, the same thing goes. The EU could not meaningfully engage the US. Force projection is what it boils down to.

So, please explain how the US military is overrated, when the key component that really makes the military functional outside its' own borders, the Navy, is so incredibly dominant on the world scene that there are no meaningful comparisons possible?

None of this means America isn't a superpower- if you refer to the definition of the word, they qualify. But "the world's great superpower"? No. America has fallen back to the pack, and is at best now a superpower in decline.

While I will agree that it is a superpower in decline, until china or the EU can boast a navy worth a damn, or some other way to put troops across the ocean in serious, supported numbers, I'm just not going to consider either a truly great superpower.

Editted to add: I am not arguing that the US is the world's only superpower, nor am I saying that it is the greatest. I am, however, saying that military force is a major part of being a superpower, and that force is only as good as how far you can project it.

 

[Primalex]

And they would do this with what? Bows and arrows?

When did they ban the purchase of weapons?

Your scenario is missing the decades of animosity that Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and Palestine have with Israel.

Uhm, right. I stopped writing the comparison with the year 1967 after the 6-day-war. Because at that time it's already obvious that they are seriously disliked by their neighbors - adding the events of the next 40 years into the comparison will not change this.

Creating an independent Native American nation would be like Quebec finally voting to become an independent nation. There wouldn't be near as much hatred and the newly formed nation would be dependant upon the US and/or Canada to stir th pot.

Quebec was always more or less independent. The people lived there already all the time. Israel didn't exist and Jews were put there. Around 1900 there were 1600000 people in Quebec - and 5000 Jews in Israel. The "superpowers" decided to make a new home country for the Jews and drive the arabs living their away. When were Canadians forced out of Quebec? Never? Right. Why would anyone besides the Jews and the "superpowers" like this idea? Hell, people fight their whole life against each other because the fucking tree of the neighbor grows over the border.

 

[kinkyknickers]

Yeah, like our government could conceive, plan, and carry out 9/11 without one person selling the story to the press. Unplug your computer now. You are too stupid to be online.

Blind faith, beautiful.

(Did you stick out your tounge and stamp your feet whilst you were writing that?)

If your government fights like you do then you lot are in serious trouble. Luckily, I'm sure there are plenty of those in power that are a little more erudite in their responses when faced with oposition..... even if it is all just spin.

 

[jockdom]

Peoples front of Judea? Fuckin splitters!

 

[WriterDom]

China's growth is being wiped out by the damage they are doing to their environment. Not to mention the problem of taking care of 1.3 billion people. Millions of them making less that 100 dollars a month. They'll never reach parody with the US. Not unless there is a revolt and communism is shouted down. Still that might be a couple of hundred years down the road.

 

[WriterDom]

Blind faith, beautiful.

(Did you stick out your tounge and stamp your feet whilst you were writing that?)

If your government fights like you do then you lot are in serious trouble. Luckily, I'm sure there are plenty of those in power that are a little more erudite in their responses when faced with oposition..... even if it is all just spin.

We can't deal with a hurricane or stamp out al-Qaeda after seven years. And you believe our government could have flawlessly carried out a plot like 9/11? You truly do have shit for brains.

 

[Homburg]

Peoples front of Judea? Fuckin splitters!

And the Judean Popular People's Front. Splitters. Splitters.

 

[pellso27]

I Think It Is A Great Thing That We Have People In This World Who Stand Up To The Would Be Hitlers Of This World. Enough Is Enough And We Need To Stop The Billshit Before It Gets Worse.

Death To Iran

 

[Primalex]

We can't deal with a hurricane or stamp out al-Qaeda after seven years. And you believe our government could have flawlessly carried out a plot like 9/11?

But a few guys in a tent in the Middle East can?

 

[WriterDom]

But a few guys in a tent in the Middle East can?

Yes, guys backed with millions of dollars and who operated Afghanistan A&M for years. It also helps if you can convince people to kill themselves along with women and children and be rewarded with 72 virgins in 72 rooms in 72 mansions.

 

[Primalex]

Yes, guys backed with millions of dollars

And the government does not have millions of dollars.

and who operated Afghanistan A&M for years.

And the States were never in any wars or conflicts.



Who figured out it was AQ? CNN? Fox News? Who was it again?

 

[WriterDom]

You are right it was Dick Cheney. I'm not going to cover up for him any longer.

 

[intothewoods]

Peoples front of Judea? Fuckin splitters!

And the Judean Popular People's Front. Splitters. Splitters.

I don't get it. Is this a reference to something?

 

[jockdom]

I don't get it. Is this a reference to something?

Life of brian doll! The popular front? He's over there!

 

[intothewoods]

Life of brian doll! The popular front? He's over there!

ha - oh. thanks.

 

[jockdom]

Hes no messiah hes just a very naughty boy! One of my favourite films! I fucking hate fundamentalists! Fucking arrogant self rightous pricks! this world would be alot better place with out them! Especially the middle east! Jesus loves you! every body else thinks you are a cunt! rant over!

 

[Breaker_Morant]

I heard from a fairly reliable source that it was not the faith in the coalition forces that caused the IDF to stand down but the US pressure.. The patriots were not established until after the scuds started flying. Plus the patriots didn't really work, but luckily the scuds didn't work that well either.

I think there is some public documentation of some of this as well.

When the Patroits were deployed in '91, it was a new weapons system. It works.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

When did they ban the purchase of weapons?

Where will they get the money? From whom will they buy them? How would they import them if they have to go throw either the US or Canada?

Make their own? Where would they get the money to build the infra-structure?

 

[kinkyknickers]

We can't deal with a hurricane or stamp out al-Qaeda after seven years. And you believe our government could have flawlessly carried out a plot like 9/11? You truly do have shit for brains.

Okay, was that a question?

Maybe I should clarify, by goverment, my statement encompasses all of the powers-that-be who can effectively control the decisions of the goverment from that same said country, ie, the CIA. Of course it might not be the CIA, it could be a goverment faction which is unknown to all but a few.

Of course it's total speculation, but believing all of the information you're fed, or are led to believe, is no less foolhardy than speculating that the literati are behind seemingly terrorist acts.

How does questioning the actions of a government that invaded Iraq as an act of reprisal for the 9/11 attacks, make me shit for brains? Al qeada was the group claiming responsibility and they were based in Afganistan. It all just seemed a little too convenient for old W to get revenge for his daddy.

The facts in this case may all just be subjective idealism. If you tell a big enough group of people the same thing enough times, eventually, well, it just has to be true right?

1 billion Christians, Jews, Hindus, Athiests or Muslims can't all be wrong.... can they? After all, they've all got plenty of facts, it's all written down, so it must be true.

KK

NB. Just because the US goverment couldn't be arsed helping out those of their own who are less fortunate doesn't mean they can't formulate a piss easy attack on some pretty hard to miss targets like the world trade centers. That was a moot point. It's all about what's important to them, not you.

 

[satindesire]

It never ceases to amaze me how much hatefullness gets spewn on something like a political thread on a porn board.

Christ, people, have some respect for your fellow man. These people's veiwpoints, right are wrong, are valid. Opinions are valuable and not to be shat on so casually.

If my grandmother saw me talking like that she'd roll over in her grave, rest her soul.

 

[Primalex]

Where will they get the money? From whom will they buy them?

Like Israel got it: From another nice country.

I bet some nations out there would love to support them with money and weapons.

 

[Primalex]

We can't stamp out al-Qaeda after seven years.

although they juggle millions of dollars, recruit people every day, have their own fucking TV station...but we are able to find the lonely Hussein in a friggin hole in nowhere land. This doesn't make you wonder?

 

[kinkyknickers]

although they juggle millions of dollars, recruit people every day, have their own fucking TV station...but we are able to find the lonely Hussein in a friggin hole in nowhere land. This doesn't make you wonder?

My thoughts exactly. It just doesn't add up. What they do and what they tell you they do are in different stratospheres.

Luckily, we don't live forever, or this kind of stuff could become a problem

 

[WriterDom]

although they juggle millions of dollars, recruit people every day, have their own fucking TV station...but we are able to find the lonely Hussein in a friggin hole in nowhere land. This doesn't make you wonder?

Take a geography lesson. Iraq is pretty much a desert. Afghanistan has some of the most extreme terrain on earth. And the western part of Pakistan is pretty much a al-Qaeda free zone where even the Pakistan army won't enter. That's why we found Saddam and why we'll probably never find Obama Bin Laden.