It isn't just liberals (political)

[rgraham666]

That worry about the state of political debate in the U.S.

When Peggy Noonan and Thomas Friedman start to be concerned there may be a problem.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I hate the way Friedman brands the various camps as "far right' and "leftist". His rant is completely out of line. He is correct in saying the "far right" went after Clinton and the "Leftists" went after Bush 41. But Obama is a different cat. He is disliked by the Right, of course, but he is also losing the left. I predict he will have no one but Michelle to vote for him by 2012.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

JJ

The thrill is definitely over with Obama.

I think we now have left, right, and his way. The self-center.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I hate the way Friedman brands the various camps as "far right' and "leftist". His rant is completely out of line. He is correct in saying the "far right" went after Clinton and the "Leftists" went after Bush 41. But Obama is a different cat. He is disliked by the Right, of course, but he is also losing the left. I predict he will have no one but Michelle to vote for him by 2012.

QED, Friedman.

Obama is not merely disliked by the right-- he is demonised, tried and convicted, and lynched by the far right.

Any 'leftist' that disagrees with something he says or does, (and did you know the left doesn't march in lockstep?) you lot think they MUST HATE HIM THE WAY YOU DO YAY!

morons.

 

[rgraham666]

Thinking on this some more.

And this came to mind.

 

[Epmd607]

QED, Friedman.
...

Quantum Electrodynamics, Feynman? Schwinger? Even Tomonaga?

 

[Boxlicker101]

QED, Friedman.

Obama is not merely disliked by the right-- he is demonised, tried and convicted, and lynched by the far right.

Any 'leftist' that disagrees with something he says or does, (and did you know the left doesn't march in lockstep?) you lot think they MUST HATE HIM THE WAY YOU DO YAY!

morons.

This is true but, in all honesty, W was "demonised, tried and convicted, and lynched by the far" left. How many times did you read, even less than a year ago, rants to impeach him and jail him as a war criminal? There were plenty of such calls, even on this forum. In fact, there still are calls to arrest the man as a war criminal, although they do seem to be fading away.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Feed the lefties to the effing dogs and move on.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This is true but, in all honesty, W was "demonised, tried and convicted, and lynched by the far" left. How many times did you read, even less than a year ago, rants to impeach him and jail him as a war criminal? There were plenty of such calls, even on this forum. In fact, there still are calls to arrest the man as a war criminal, although they do seem to be fading away.

Bush has performed the actions of a war criminal. He has committed the crimes, in full view of the world.

Obama gets accused of things that he hasn't done.

The same morons that think what Bush did was somehow excusable are the ones talking about "military takeovers" because they are so afeared of a man who actually has scruples.

 

[xssve]

This is true but, in all honesty, W was "demonised, tried and convicted, and lynched by the far" left. How many times did you read, even less than a year ago, rants to impeach him and jail him as a war criminal? There were plenty of such calls, even on this forum. In fact, there still are calls to arrest the man as a war criminal, although they do seem to be fading away.

Yes, except that he is a war criminal - he earned that. All the crap about Obama is fantasy, empty rhetoric, he hasn't had time to fuck up.

The plots to assassinate Obama, characterwise or otherwise, were probably in the works as soon as announced his candidacy, it was a very short honeymoon.

As I recall, the first criticisms of Bush came form the right, about a year into his presidency, right before 9-11, w/regard to his pandering to corporate donors.

They were saying that the difference between Clinton and Bush was that this time it was Bush on his knees under the table.

 

[Liar]

This is true but, in all honesty, W was "demonised, tried and convicted, and lynched by the far" left. How many times did you read, even less than a year ago, rants to impeach him and jail him as a war criminal? There were plenty of such calls, even on this forum. In fact, there still are calls to arrest the man as a war criminal, although they do seem to be fading away.

Yes. After eight years of the guy. The ranting of the left grew slowly and didn't really take hold until Iraq became a bona fide farce.

What was the tone on the left eight months into 2001? As I recall, some expected whining over a lost election, a few "popular vote" muttered, and a field day for late night comedians, playing on Bush's less-than-eloquent quirks. But nothing close to what we're seeing now. It was rabid war mode from day one.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Yes. After eight years of the guy. The ranting of the left grew slowly and didn't really take hold until Iraq became a bona fide farce.

What was the tone on the left eight months into 2001? As I recall, some expected whining over a lost election, a few "popular vote" muttered, and a field day for late night comedians, playing on Bush's less-than-eloquent quirks. But nothing close to what we're seeing now. It was rabid war mode from day one.

W's administration was uneventful, relatively speaking, until 9-11. There wasn't that much to get upset over. Whereas Obama, in the same period of time, handed out billions in bailouts and has tried to ram a radical medical insurance plan down our resisting throats. When Hillary tried to do something similar early in the Clinton admin. she got the same reception.

I'm not necessarily complaining about all those bailouts. Some were loans and some were the purchase of preferred stock and some have been returned. I do definitely have misgivings over the medical insurance, because I think whatever equalizing is done will be done by making most people, including me, worse off.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Bush has performed the actions of a war criminal. He has committed the crimes, in full view of the world.

Obama gets accused of things that he hasn't done.

The same morons that think what Bush did was somehow excusable are the ones talking about "military takeovers" because they are so afeared of a man who actually has scruples.

I'm not actually "afraid" of a military takeover, but I do believe the likelihood of the president suspending the Constitution and ruling by fiat is greater now than any other time since WW2. I don't expect it to happen, but I think the chances are greater.

Now that Obama is responsible for the prosecution of the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, the only thing he has done different is discuss sending more troops to the latter. I believe it is something that needs to be done, and I don't believe it makes him a war criminal.

Obama may have some scruples, but I don't trust ANY successful pol. from Chicago.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

It might seem that the Olympic committee agrees with Box. And, of course, since the Pres wasn't able to pull off a miracle for the Chicago Olympic Committee, the European press is starting to howl like jackals. Sheesh!

 

[Stella_Omega]

n.

I'm not necessarily complaining about all those bailouts. Some were loans and some were the purchase of preferred stock and some have been returned. I do definitely have misgivings over the medical insurance, because I think whatever equalizing is done will be done by making most people, including me, worse off.

On the other hand, I might be better off. I might actually HAVE medical insurance.

If I can ram it down your throat, Box, I will.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm not actually "afraid" of a military takeover, but I do believe the likelihood of the president suspending the Constitution and ruling by fiat is greater now than any other time since WW2. I don't expect it to happen, but I think the chances are greater. :not at all cool:

The chances will be much much greater if the Republicans win the next term. They are the ones making the big talk about military takeovers, for crissake-- Dude says; "If you know of a non-violent way to change the government, let me know."

Uh hello, elections.

Now that Obama is responsible for the prosecution of the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, the only thing he has done different is discuss sending more troops to the latter. I believe it is something that needs to be done, and I don't believe it makes him a war criminal.

Bush kicked the wasp nest, and you're upset that Obama is still dealing with the wasps?

Obama may have some scruples, but I don't trust ANY successful pol. from Chicago.

he has scruples, and they are very evident.

They are what won him the election. Because there was no one else running with scruples at all.

Okay, I am tired of your moronic thought processes.

 

[xssve]

W's administration was uneventful, relatively speaking, until 9-11. There wasn't that much to get upset over. Whereas Obama, in the same period of time, handed out billions in bailouts and has tried to ram a radical medical insurance plan down our resisting throats. When Hillary tried to do something similar early in the Clinton admin. she got the same reception.

I'm not necessarily complaining about all those bailouts. Some were loans and some were the purchase of preferred stock and some have been returned. I do definitely have misgivings over the medical insurance, because I think whatever equalizing is done will be done by making most people, including me, worse off.

The fact is the guy really didn't do anything but fuck up and undo everything that had already been done - he wasn't a doer, he was an undoer.

Republicans basically talked a lot while sneakily and systematically dismantling the regulatory state every time there was an Orange alert, and damn near crashed the global economy doing it - kinda the reason we had regulations to begin with.

Now you bitch that we dodged the fucking bullet - a capital infusion was the only way to get unfreeze the system, the price of voodoo economics: you borrow money, eventually, you have to pay it back - if you didn't score on the bubble, that your fucking fault, you can bet the sock puppet cleaned up.

Shit, he's probably holed up in one of Ceausescu's old palaces surrounded by boy toys.

Obama, after Thirty years of hot air on the issue has pushed a national health care plan to a vote in 9 months which is nothing short of miraculous in my opinion.

He did the thing, leaving republicans dragging their heels and frantically calling their campaign donors to find out what they should think.

 

[TE999]

One gets the impression from these columnists that intelligible discourse has reached it's nadir and we're all just too rude and uncouth.

I read these comments as the fourth estate grousing about the increasing competition from alternative news sources who just don't know what they're talking about. They long for the days when big 3 anchormen and op-ed columnists were the only sources of information and their word was the Sermon on the Mount.

It's a new ball game, folks. Get over it.

As far as 'civility's' concerned, read the newspapers from the early 1800's on until WWII. Talk about some political name calling and mud-slinging. Everyone was somewhat polite in the late 40's-early 60's, but then the gloves were off again and they've stayed off.

Yearning for the 'good old days' is indicative of people who are rendered ineffectual in the rushing tide of events and can't cope with it. Sad.

 

[Liar]

One gets the impression from these columnists that intelligible discourse has reached it's nadir and we're all just too rude and uncouth.

I read these comments as the fourth estate grousing about the increasing competition from alternative news sources who just don't know what they're talking about. They long for the days when big 3 anchormen and op-ed columnists were the only sources of information and their word was the Sermon on the Mount.

It's a new ball game, folks. Get over it.

Yah. There's definitely something to that. Time and again, I hear old media dinos talking about "the blogosphere" and "the bloggers" as if it was mindless chatter in the wind.

One of the more common gripes about new media is that "the world still need Real Reporting, by Real Journalists, everyone can't sit in the comfort of their basement, reciting someone else's news stories". And at the same time, almost every story in the big newspapers is referred to from another paper, or a syndicated Reuters or AP story.

They're projecting their frustration over what they themselves has been reduced to onto the new media. Who does the same thing as they do, but for peanuts and a zillion times faster.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh trust me, no one in their right mind yearns for the pre WWII brand of good old days.

Except for racists, sexists, homophobes and the simple-minded.

The rest of us, who remember being bullied and victimised, are way the hell glad to be rid of that crap.

But you know, there was a short period of time when people would have been ashamed to exhibit the kind of ignorance that the right wing has been flaunting.

 

[Liar]

That's what baffles me. Not the passion and energy or even the virtiol of the current barrage. Those things happen. But the sheer willful embracement of ignorance.

I was sent a clip yesterday (sorry, the link is at my computer at work) showing some Rep congresswoman complaining about a part of the health care bill regarding school or youth clinincs. She was upset that it had a paragraph about standard patient/doctor confidentiality, and painted a nightmare scenario of how 13 year old girls could have "abortions in school and their parents would be none the wiser". Just one little thing. The very paragraph before it stated that all procedures and confidentiality for a minor is trumped by required parental consent.

That's just the latest of a thousand little things that are so easily punctured and shown as the stupidity they are. I can't wrap my head around how a discourse works, that allows them to gestate into "facts". How does the group mind and media/meme machine of America work? Someone should write a book about it.

I'm not saying that you lot are stupid. It's more like a different kind of stupid than here (we have our own, believe me). A love affair with hyperboles that feels alien to me.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

It's pretty much the same kind of cherry-picking inflammatory bits of legislation that gets used to justify all manner of idiocy using snippets of Scripture. And it's being done by the same sort of people. Such gerrymandering of fact and the language itself sells well among the the paranoid wing of registered voters. And we all know that change makes people paranoid, after all, so there are a lot of them.

 

[ishtat]

It might seem that the Olympic committee agrees with Box. And, of course, since the Pres wasn't able to pull off a miracle for the Chicago Olympic Committee, the European press is starting to howl like jackals. Sheesh!

This bit of the "European press" is owned by one Rupert Murdoch an American (who we got shot of). I understand he also sets editorial policy at Fox the well known source of reticent jounalism.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Bush has performed the actions of a war criminal. He has committed the crimes, in full view of the world.

Obama gets accused of things that he hasn't done.

The same morons that think what Bush did was somehow excusable are the ones talking about "military takeovers" because they are so afeared of a man who actually has scruples.

Scruples? From Chicago? What a laugh. Barry has lied more in the first eight months of his presidency than Double U did in eight years. Every aspect of "HIS" healthcare bill that was brought out into the daylight he has lied about what is in the bill. When he tells you that Cap and Tax...I mean the Pollution Reform Bill will create thousands of jobs but, doesn't tell you about the million that will be lost...he's lying by omission.

His scruples are lopsided...of course his scruples allow you to lie to the great unwashed mass whose only use is to put him in office.

 

[Epmd607]

The fact is the guy really didn't do anything but fuck up and undo everything that had already been done - he wasn't a doer, he was an undoer.

Republicans basically talked a lot while sneakily and systematically dismantling the regulatory state every time there was an Orange alert, and damn near crashed the global economy doing it - kinda the reason we had regulations to begin with.

Now you bitch that we dodged the fucking bullet - a capital infusion was the only way to get unfreeze the system, the price of voodoo economics: you borrow money, eventually, you have to pay it back - if you didn't score on the bubble, that your fucking fault, you can bet the sock puppet cleaned up.

Shit, he's probably holed up in one of Ceausescu's old palaces surrounded by boy toys.

Obama, after Thirty years of hot air on the issue has pushed a national health care plan to a vote in 9 months which is nothing short of miraculous in my opinion.

He did the thing, leaving republicans dragging their heels and frantically calling their campaign donors to find out what they should think.

I agree. The best is how people present Obama as the face of the financial bailout and stimulus. It's pretty much all Bushy, everything up to healthcare was Bush and the FED trying to prevent deflationary quagmire. The car companies, Citigroup wouldn't have been handled differently if Ronnie Reagan was in the White House.

National Healthcare, that's all Obama, and if there's not serious national coverage of the uninsured we should all be embarrassed. There's never been a country that's produced wealth like ours, and Latvia, Estonia, Rumania treat human beings before they die of renal failure from common illnesses and infections.