It Has Begun

[impressive]

This sickens me. They are killing this woman based on nothing but hearsay, as she left no written document expressing her wishes. Regardless of your views on her "quality of life," that fact alone should scare the shit out of you.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20050318/D88TK4QO0.html

Brain-Damaged Woman's Feeding Tube Removed
Mar 18, 4:04 PM (ET)
By MITCH STACY

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (AP) - Doctors removed Terri Schiavo's feeding tube Friday despite an extraordinary, last-minute push by Republicans on Capitol Hill to use the subpoena powers of Congress to save the severely brain-damaged woman.

Schiavo's family issued a statement on their Web site confirming that the tube had been disconnected. It is expected that it will take one to two weeks for Schiavo to die, provided no one intercedes and gets the tube reinserted.

The removal came amid a flurry of maneuvering by Schiavo's parents, state lawmakers and Congress to keep her alive. Committees in the Republican-controlled Congress issued subpoenas for Schiavo, her husband, and her caregivers demanding that they appear at hearings in the coming weeks.

But the judge presiding over the case later refused a request from House attorneys to delay the removal, which he had previously ordered to take place at 1 p.m. EST.

"I have had no cogent reason why the (congressional) committee should intervene," Circuit Judge George Greer told attorneys in a conference call, adding that last-minute action by Congress does not invalidate years of court rulings.

The tube's removal signals that an end may be near in a decade-long family feud between Schiavo's husband and her devoutly Roman Catholic parents, Bob and Mary Schindler. The parents have been trying to oust Michael Schiavo as their daughter's guardian and keep in place the tube that has kept her alive for more than 15 years.

The tube has twice been removed in the past, but was re-inserted within days in both cases.

Michael Schiavo says his wife told him she would not want to be kept alive artificially. Her parents dispute that, saying she could get better and that their daughter has laughed, cried, smiled and responded to their voices. Court-appointed physicians testified her brain damage was so severe that there was no hope she would ever have any cognitive abilities.

Several right-to-die cases across the nation have been fought in the courts in recent years, but few, if any, have been this drawn-out and bitter.

The case has garnered attention around the world and served as a rallying cry for conservative Christian groups and anti-abortion activists, who flooded members of Congress and Florida legislators with messages seeking to keep Schiavo alive.

Outside Schiavo's hospice, about 30 people keeping vigil dropped to their knees in prayer when word spread of the judge's ruling calling for removal of the tube.

"What can wash away our sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus," they sang. Messages on protest signs included "Impeach Greer.com," a reference to the judge, and "Execution - It's Not Just for the Guilty Anymore."

House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, told reporters in Washington earlier Friday that removal of the tube amounted to "barbarism."

But Rep. Henry Waxman of California, senior Democrat on the Government Reform Committee, called the subpoenas a "flagrant abuse of power" and amounted to Congress dictating the medical care Terri Schiavo should receive.

"Congress is turning the Schiavo family's personal tragedy into a national political farce," Waxman said.

Schiavo suffered severe brain damage in 1990 when a chemical imbalance apparently brought on by an eating disorder caused her heart to stop beating for a few minutes. She can breathe on her own, but has relied on the feeding and hydration tube to keep her alive.

Both sides accused each other of being motivated by greed over a $1 million medical malpractice award from doctors who failed to diagnose the chemical imbalance.

The Schindlers also said that Michael Schiavo wants their daughter dead so he can marry his longtime girlfriend, with whom he has young children. They have begged him to divorce their daughter, and let them care for her.

The tangled case has encompassed at least 19 judges in at least six different courts.

In 2001, Schiavo went without food and water for two days before a judge ordered the tube reinserted when a new witness surfaced.

When the tube was removed in October 2003, her parents and two siblings frantically sought intervention from Gov Jeb. Bush to stop her slow starvation. The governor pushed through "Terri's Law," and six days later the tube was reinserted.

That set off a new round of legal battles which culminated in September 2004 with the Florida Supreme Court ruling that Bush had overstepped his authority and declared the law unconstitutional.

The U.S. Supreme Court has been unwilling to hear arguments in the case.

On Feb. 25, Greer gave Michael Schiavo permission to order the removal of the feeding tube at 1 p.m. Friday.

The family and lawmakers continued with their fight in recent weeks.

In Tallahassee, the Florida House on Thursday passed a bill to block the withholding of food and water from patients in a persistent vegetative state who did not leave specific instructions on their care. Hours later, however, the Senate defeated a different measure 21-16.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I'd want it done to me if I were her. I wouldn't want to be forced to live when everything else is gone. I can't imagine a worse kind of torture.

 

[English Lady]

I'd want it done to me if I were her. I wouldn't want to be forced to live when everything else is gone. I can't imagine a worse kind of torture.

I agree completely.

 

[impressive]

I'd want it done to me if I were her. I wouldn't want to be forced to live when everything else is gone. I can't imagine a worse kind of torture.

It's YOUR decision, though. NOT someone else's. If you feel strongly about it, this case is perfect example of the need for advance directives.

I cannot even begin to imagine the horror this woman and her loved ones must be enduring. She interacts with her parents, and if provided appropriate therapies (that have been withheld) stands a reasonable chance of regaining some communication skills. At the very least, those therapies should be provided in order to determine her true wishes.

 

[rgraham666]

I wrote story about the lover of a coma victim. I did a lot of research.

Coma victims, contrary to popular belief, do respond to stimulation. It doesn't mean they are aware though.

And in a long term coma like this, it is very unlikely she will ever become aware. And the victim will never recover completely. The physical damage in a case this long is too severe to repair. It's unlikely she would ever leave her bed. Her muscles and ligaments have atrophied too much.

And the brain damage is severe as well. Even if she becomes aware again, she might not be able to speak, there could be all kinds of cognitive or mood disorders, plus the trauma of being trapped in a body that's now useless.

But the chances of her recovering are very slim. And as I pointed out, she won't be much better off if she does become aware again.

She asked not to continue in such a case. I believe we should respect her wishes.

Her parents undoubtedly love her. But they are now being selfish.

 

[impressive]

Coma victims, contrary to popular belief, do respond to stimulation. It doesn't mean they are aware though.

She is NOT in a coma. She is awake, alert, responsive, and relies on no medical intervention other than a gastrostomy (a feeding tube) for nutrition -- and she is being starved to death.

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

.....

 

[Remec]

This sickens me. They are killing this woman based on nothing but hearsay, as she left no written document expressing her wishes. Regardless of your views on her "quality of life," that fact alone should scare the shit out of you.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20050318/D88TK4QO0.html

That woman has been dead for years. Only her corpse is still breathing and processing the nutrients they force through it. If she hadn't been born in this country in this era, she'd already be more nothing more than a pleasant memory as opposed to the thing in the bed that they wouldn't allow the decency of a proper death back when that was a choice.

 

[rgraham666]

That isn't what I gathered from the article imp.

I'm leaving this thread now. It's not likely to turn out well.

 

[Guest]

That woman has been dead for years. Only her corpse is still breathing and processing the nutrients they force through it. If she hadn't been born in this country in this era, she'd already be more nothing more than a pleasant memory as opposed to the thing in the bed that they wouldn't allow the decency of a proper death back when that was a choice.

I've gotta say, just from reading that article, that's how I see it, too.

We had a similar case here, in the UK, last year sometime, but that was about a premature baby. The parents desperately wanted to hold onto any kind of life the baby had, but the hospital took it all the way to the High Court and got an order for the machines to be turned off. It was seen as setting quite a precedent at the time, but there are many safe-guards in place, I believe, to stop that ruling being taken advantage of. Exstensive tests were made on the baby, and he/she (can't remember the gender) was essentially brain dead, with no chance of ever developing even the remotest of cognitive abilities. Heartbreaking, but as you said there, Remec, were it not for modern medicine, that baby would have died right after childbirth, or been miscarried earlier in the pregnancy.

 

[impressive]

Sorry, guys. Anyone who can follow instructions is not in a "persistent vegetative state" or a coma. If you choose to believe the mainstream media and not look deeper, then that speaks to another issue entirely. I refer you to www.terrisfight.org should you choose to take a closer look. It's not easy.

Like I said earlier, this is not about YOUR opinions of her quality of life or what YOU would want for yourself. I would hate to be put in the position where I had to make such a choice for someone. This is about acting to end a life on nothing more than hearsay.

If you don't want someone else making such decisions for you, then make an advance directive.

 

[gauchecritic]

I've got to agree with Imp in that I completely disagree that being fed is a medical procedure.

If you decided not to feed someone in your care you would be murdering them so how is a doctor any different? Is it not international law that if you are someone's jailer (which is in essence what these people are) that you are obliged to feed them?

So it's not the doctors or relatives that are wrong, it's the law. And everyone knows that it's an ass.

That woman has been dead for years. Only her corpse is still breathing and processing the nutrients they force through it. If she hadn't been born in this country in this era, she'd already be more nothing more than a pleasant memory as opposed to the thing in the bed that they wouldn't allow the decency of a proper death back when that was a choice.

And the same can be said for millions of people who are kept artificially alive. In another time they would be dead. Being fed isn't an artificial aid, it's the most natural aid.

Perhaps their 'heroic' efforts (as is the modern term) in the first instance were the wrong choice but the choice was made and you shouldn't kill someone for your wrong choices

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Sorry, guys. Anyone who can follow instructions is not in a "persistent vegetative state" or a coma. If you choose to believe the mainstream media and not look deeper, then that speaks to another issue entirely. I refer you to www.terrisfight.org should you choose to take a closer look. It's not easy.

Like I said earlier, this is not about YOUR opinions of her quality of life or what YOU would want for yourself. I would hate to be put in the position where I had to make such a choice for someone. This is about acting to end a life on nothing more than hearsay.

If you don't want someone else making such decisions for you, then make an advance directive.

I've followed it intermittantly. I haven't seen anywhere in any report, Reuters, Ap, or local, where a certified doctor has ever said she isn't in a persistant vegitative state. Not one. I have seen a host of doctors who say she is. The only ones who maintain she isn't are the parents.

I've never been in the situation, cannot even begin to imagine what it is like to make the decision to take someone off life support. I feel for the husband, who has turned down multi millions of dollars to give up gardianship of her, because he believes she wished to die with dignity. I feel for the parents, who are convinced she is still alive and their little girl.

I'm nauseated by the Republicans, and their tactics. Sickened beyond words at the calloussness with which they turn tragedy to political advantage.

The story can not end happily.

My deepest sympathies to all concerned.

 

[OhMissScarlett]

If you don't want someone else making such decisions for you, then make an advance directive.

I couldn't agree more on this subject. Write your living wills, folks. Don't put your family in a situation they cannot deal with. Even if you're in the prime of your life and think it will never happen to you.

My cousin's been living on a feeding tube for ten years after severe head injuries he suffered in a car accident. He's in a vegatative state, awake, but completely unresponsive. He always told everyone he knew he would never want to be on life support. "Just pull the plug, if it ever comes to that," he told me during one conversation.

When it came time to make the decisions, his parents, despite being told he'd never recover, held out hope and would not let him go. My aunt and uncle sit with him day after day, hoping for some miracle. They have given up their jobs, their home, their own health, everything. They don't talk to those of us who disagree with them, even their own daughter. It's heartbreaking, but they know what he wanted.

 

[impressive]

I haven't seen anywhere in any report, Reuters, Ap, or local, where a certified doctor has ever said she isn't in a persistant vegitative state. Not one. I have seen a host of doctors who say she is. The only ones who maintain she isn't are the parents.

From TerrisFight.org (admittedly a biased source of information, and uncited):

Dr. Victor Gambone testified that he visits Terri 3 times a year. His visits last for approximately 10 minutes. He also testified, after viewing the court videotapes at Terri’s recent trial, that he was surprised to see Terri’s level of awareness. This doctor is part of a team hand-picked by her husband, Michael Schiavo, shortly before he filed to have Terri’s feeding removed. Contrary to Schiavo’s team, 14 independent medical professionals (6 of them neurologists) have given either statements or testimony that Terri is NOT in a Persistent Vegetative State.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

From TerrisFight.org (admittedly a biased source of information, and uncited):

Obviously, wild statements without authentication on a partisan site aren't very convincing.

A qucik google search revealed this at CBS's site: Dr. Victor Gambone had testified that the removal of the tube would allow her to die peacefully within days.

Of course I consider CBS only slightly more credible than the rumor mill.

What I gather from the hits is, He was involved in the case for over five years and through several trials. It seems likely he has made enough statements that either side could selectively quote him to bolster their argument.

For myself, I feel sorry for all involved. It has to be gut wrenching and emotionally exhausting. The fact that the courts and the governor and the legislature have all gotten involved and have served to do nothing more than muck things up and turn it into a political sideshow has to make it even harder on those principally involved.

 

[carsonshepherd]

If you don't want someone else making such decisions for you, then make an advance directive.

Write your living wills, folks. Don't put your family in a situation they cannot deal with. Even if you're in the prime of your life and think it will never happen to you.

Living wills are not binding in most states. Also, same sex partners cannot make decisions for one another. Makes me sick how the critically ill/injured/dying have no rights in this country.

 

[impressive]

Living wills are not binding in most states. Also, same sex partners cannot make decisions for one another. Makes me sick how the critically ill/injured/dying have no rights in this country.

Even with a medical power of attorney?

 

[carsonshepherd]

Even with a medical power of attorney?

In my state, a medical power of attorney must be appointed to carry out a person's "living will". Alone it's just a piece of paper that the family can choose to ignore for their own reasons (like Scarlett's family.) Problem is, most people in theprime of their lives do not appoint a medical power of attorney. Who thinks about that at 30? I totally agree that these directives should be made... Why is the medical community not spreading awareness and making it easier for people to do so?

 

[cantdog]

The p.o. would override, but living wills are routinely set aside in favor of the wishes of the ones still on their pins, the ones who can sue. If you're in a condition where you imagine your living will would operate, the next of kin (or p.o.) will make the decision in any case.

If the decision made is contested, then the living will will be a factor at whatever hearing. Uncontested, the will of the living next of kin overrides the living will, or the organ donor card, or any of that other stuff.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Even with a medical power of attorney?

Not even a health care proxy works everywhere with a same sex partner as executor. When I was in a relationship with someone here, even though she was named on my health care proxy, every time I went home she fretted. We both knew as soon as I left NY, it was hit or miss wheter she would even be able to visit me, if I were in an accident, much less make decisions.

I have a DNR, but they are routinely ignored. And the partner has almost no chance of successfully prosecuting doctors or EMT's who do. Basically, if the doctors decide to play god, there is very litle you can do.

In the end, I transfered my HCP to my older brother. He's even more objective/logical than I am, and I know he will follow my wishes, without sentiment getting in the way.

 

[ElizabethWest]

Why is the medical community not spreading awareness and making it easier for people to do so?

In my state you get an advanced directive packet and living will directive instruction booklet every time you make a visit to the ER or enter an extended-care facility. But other than that, we are sadly lacking. They told us in school to make one out for ourselves but never told us to counsel others.

 

[impressive]

Just Googling for resources:

http://www.partnershipforcaring.org/Advance/

http://www.bazelon.org/issues/advancedirectives/index.htm

http://www.internationaltaskforce.org/advdir.htm

https://www.medicalert.org/Main/AdvanceDirectives.aspx

http://www.hospicenet.org/html/directives.html

 

[oggbashan]

This case and others like it are discussed at length with medical students in the UK as part of the medical ethics module of their courses.

Whatever the decision taken, it is a tragedy for the family of the person involved.

How far should doctors go to keep people alive who have no prospect of any significant quality of life or any signs of life apart from the mechanical reactions? The question is unanswerable.

The politics of this case, whether you consider the decision is right or wrong, are an unpleasant reminder that politics is a dirty business. The demonisation of the other side of the argument is unjust and unhelpful.

There are people who have sincerely held views about medical ethics that have agonised over this sort of situation and come to different answers. That is what rational beings do. Just because they come to a view you don't agree with doesn't mean that they are any less upset by having to decide.

Og

 

[carsonshepherd]

This is a hot button issue for me, so excuse me for not going on with this discussion... gets me too upset.