Issues of Training...

[InnerDarkness]

Maybe I am confused by this, or maybe it is actually me who has the faulty viewpoint.

In another thread, there was discussion of holding fast to your thoughts, views and opinions regardless of what other's say. I was fast to come to the defense of a sub who appears to be new to the board, but then her response made me re-think my defense. She said:

No, i understand what you both are saying. Right now what is important is for me to learn what i am being taught and my views will change as i change and am ready to admit or accept each step and reason for being. I am just being trained right now and barely have a deep indepth glimpse of this lifestyle, but have an open mind and am willing to learn what i can

Since I have never been through any kind of serious and on-going training and do not really feel complete in my knowledge because of that, am I missing an aspect of training? Or did I just never consider it?

More to the point...what actually do you (both sub and Dom/me) consider to be things to focus on for training? Is it just comprised of things like learning voice commands, body postures, completion of assignments, exploration of limits, learning to communicate and trust...or does it actually involve the CHANGE of personal viewpoints?

Maybe this is too complicated of a question, I am not sure, but I guess I assumed that no matter what my training entailed, I would always retain certain thoughts, views and opinions about what I wanted/needed/desired and what I thought about things happening around me. I understand that as I grow as a sub with a Sir, I may be "enlightened" and learn along the way, thus developing a shift or a change in an attitude, but on the whole....is there a sense of needing to "change" the subs views?

Maybe I am thinking about this one too much.

Any help?

 

[Pure]

To the question of the effect on you, the sub,

It depends if you choose (are put in a position of)--

1) A Hallmark, Sweet Dom/Sub Mutual-Respect Partership

2) Hard Domination putting your interests in secondary place

3) Sadistic tyrrany ignoring your interests and considering your well being only insofar as your health is necessary to continue the situation.

There are 'in betweens' and other possibilities, of course.

Also, it's not merely a question of 'view' change, but 'being' change. Neither may change under the first; both will change under the last.

Best of luck.

J.

 

[InnerDarkness]

To the question of the effect on you, the sub,

It depends if you choose (are put in a position of)--

1) A Hallmark, Sweet Dom/Sub Mutual-Respect Partership

2) Hard Domination putting your interests in secondary place

3) Sadistic tyrrany ignoring your interests and considering your well being only insofar as your health is necessary to continue the situation.

There are 'in betweens' and other possibilities, of course.

Also, it's not merely a question of 'view' change, but 'being' change. Neither may change under the first; both will change under the last.

Best of luck.

J.

Oh very true.

I think the very nature of the relationship of course would dictate any changes in "being" or "view".

I have questioned my ability (and desire) to submit to someone in category 2, and definately would not in category 3...perhaps I am too "fluffy" of a sub, or maybe not a "real' sub at all by some people's standards, but I know that for me...I have thoughts, opinions, a self concept and a stance on a good many things, and I don't really plan to change them.

But then again...maybe I just have never found the right Sir to cause that change in me.

anyone else?

 

[Pure]

In life, you get to be as 'fluffy' as you like. The 'real'ness of a choice is not 'really' an issue!

 

[catalina_francisco]

anyone else?

I will return when my mind is more in operating mode. LOL, is mush right now I'm afraid. Great thread topic.

Catalina http://www.logtenberg.info/konijnen/konijn14.gif

 

[InnerDarkness]

In life, you get to be as 'fluffy' as you like. The 'real'ness of a choice is not 'really' an issue!

Thank you.

I should know that.

I even commented about it in another thread I started this week, but I guess this whole re-evaluation and self-examination period I am experiencing has brought up so many questions I never stopped to ask myself about before...this topic being one of them.

I guess I still have the tendancy, as many new (and I still consider myself new) to the lifestyle do, to use the experience of others to understand my own...which doesn't always work.

Again, thank you for your thoughts.

 

[InnerDarkness]

I will return when my mind is more in operating mode. LOL, is mush right now I'm afraid. Great thread topic.

Catalina http://www.logtenberg.info/konijnen/konijn14.gif

I look forward to your thoughts...and I love all your cute animations I keep seeing everywhere

 

[taipa]

InnerDarkness, i say this mainly because i have never let anyone into my life nor touch me before. I have always been in strictest control over who gets to know what about me, who sees what emotions if any except for the good times and feelings. i have never been vulnerable to anyone or submitted any control.
my trust was minimal and i denied any need or wants except for what i could provide for myself.
This is where the huge change of viewpoint and being is taking place right now.
i am not a bitter person, nor completely unhappy as i am adapted to this, i was at peace where i was. Towards my few friends i am not as reserved, but they never saw a tear, if they hurt me, i would tell them, but they would not see it etc.
He sees everything and wants to see everything. He wants to know what i am feeling or how i feel.
i used to think slut or whore was just that, but now when He calls me His slut, i smile...

taipa

 

[Shadowsdream]

From a Trainers point of view...

The submissive under My thumb will learn about endurance and suffering. Humility and obedience. Trust and responsibility. They will be taken deep within themselves looking for honesty and not just surface recognition of needs and desires.

They will taste humiliation and pain. Learn about sensations and deprivation. Taste their own tears of passion as well as the tears of freedom. They will become more open than they dreamed possible and also learn that in this exposure they become more vulnerable.

...a few of the requirements of a Trainer.

 

[InnerDarkness]

InnerDarkness, i say this mainly because i have never let anyone into my life nor touch me before. I have always been in strictest control over who gets to know what about me, who sees what emotions if any except for the good times and feelings. i have never been vulnerable to anyone or submitted any control.
my trust was minimal and i denied any need or wants except for what i could provide for myself.
This is where the huge change of viewpoint and being is taking place right now.
i am not a bitter person, nor completely unhappy as i am adapted to this, i was at peace where i was. Towards my few friends i am not as reserved, but they never saw a tear, if they hurt me, i would tell them, but they would not see it etc.
He sees everything and wants to see everything. He wants to know what i am feeling or how i feel.
i used to think slut or whore was just that, but now when He calls me His slut, i smile...

taipa

Thanks for explaining this more...I hope you dont mind your initial comment being the topic of my newest thread LOL!!

I guess in that regard, I can understand the "change" in viewpoint. You are finally beginning to allow the control to be given/taken and it does, indeed, change you when you do that.

I, too, have always been very controlled/controlling when it comes to allowing me, my emotions or feelings to be shared with another...sometimes to the point of stunting a relationship.

I just have to wonder sometimes if there are opinions or thoughts I have that will NEVER change no matter what happens to me, or if everything will eventually be "up for grabs".

 

[InnerDarkness]

From a Trainers point of view...

The submissive under My thumb will learn about endurance and suffering. Humility and obedience. Trust and responsibility. They will be taken deep within themselves looking for honesty and not just surface recognition of needs and desires.

They will taste humiliation and pain. Learn about sensations and deprivation. Taste their own tears of passion as well as the tears of freedom. They will become more open than they dreamed possible and also learn that in this exposure they become more vulnerable.

...a few of the requirements of a Trainer.

I really do appreciate you sharing your perspective since it is one that I likely will never have because of my own self-applied labels.

I would like to ask some further questions if I may...

You mention those under you as learning and taking a deep look within themselves. What do you do when you take a sub deep within themselves, and explore a concept or a viewpoint with them and they still refuse (can not or will not) to change it? When does it become important enough of a point that you would dismiss them? Does it ever reach that point?

 

[Justina123]

I recognize that some of my ways of seeing things have changed since giving my life and submission to B. We have never exactly labeled it "training", but since Sir has deliberately set out to mold some of my ways of looking at things and reacting to him, etc. I guess you could call it training.

For me, it has consisted primarily of my desiring to please Him and therefore trying to act and react in ways that please Him. After awhile, these reactions become ingrained and **poof**, I guess you could say some training has taken place!

-justina

 

[MasterNico]

...perhaps I am too "fluffy" of a sub, or maybe not a "real' sub at all by some people's standards

Don't feel that way, in my experience, the only people who profess to be a "real" or "true" Dom or sub, aren't.

...and if anyone feels the need to give you an unsolicited "I'm not an asshole", chances are, they are.

 

[Netzach]

I have no desire to change certain fundamentals about a person. Stuff on the surface....eh, maybe, it depends. Not even that interested in it really.

I'm much more about making use of existing talents and tendencies. If someone's a little bit of a slut, let's make him a lot of a slut, if someone is tightly closed, efficient and service oriented, let's grind down on her perfection till it's perfect.

 

[ownedsubgal]

i would say it depends on what the Trainer needs and desires from the submissive/slave. my own training in the beginning primarily dealt with getting to know my Master and all of his buttons...everything from how he liked his eggs cooked (soft but not too soft), to how he wished/demanded my body be kept (thin, no hair). conditioning has also always been a part of his training of me...conditioning me to be able to accept and tolerate certain activities, or even certain states of mind. and obviously if i had to be conditioned to certain things, then it was not a completely natural inclination. but i would not say that he has ever tried to change the core of who i am or wished me to be in any way directly opposed to my nature.

 

[catalina_francisco]

You have asked a very interesting and difficult question to answer Innerdarkness. Do we as Dominants/trainers change our properties personal viewpoints, and taking it a step farther, do we brainwash our submissives?

It is without a doubt that we as Dominants influence the thoughts and thinking pattern of our partners. It is a necessity to do so, often it start with gaining the trust of our submissive and this alone is often a humungous task. It is my experience that most submissive are not persons who easily trust others, by gaining the trust we are already changing the way our partners think and respond to world.

So viewed from that point we are changing and influencing the thought patterns and will eventually influence the personal viewpoints of our partners. Training to me is not as much about positions but more about getting to know my partner. My end goal is to be able to read their mind and become part of their soul. But that is the training I undertake for myself, I expect from my partner that she has the same goals as I do. So after gaining trust, we as a couple spend time getting to know each other in a way which is only allowed by the trust we have for each other. This will also influence the thought patterns and viewpoints of our partners.

There are other things I teach my partner, I teach her about love and humility, I teach her about pain and pleasure, I teach her about needs and wants, but the most important things we teach each other is how we as a couple can fulfil our needs.

There is a next step which I have heard of but actually have never witnessed; there is the brainwashing process where a submissive is actually changed in the way they think and react. I am sure most of us have heard about the Stockholm syndrome where the subject begins to identify with their captors initially as a defensive mechanism, out of fear of violence.

Acts of malice are deliberately mixed with small acts of kindness; the kindness is magnified by the subject while the malice is overlooked. Eventually the thought patterns of the subject are changed and a fantasy world comes in place where morality and ethics are replaced by those of the captor. This is a survival instinct which is present in all of us.

So yes the possibility exists that a ruthless Dominant could abuse his position of power and brainwash his submissive.

Francisco.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Francisco, am glad you brought up brainwashing. is a reality in some M/s unions, whether we like to think of it or not. in the early growing pains period of my union with Daddy, i remember asking him once, "why do you want to brainwash me?"....and his response was he did not want to brainwash me, he wished to condition me. it took me quite a while to understand the difference. brainwashing is more a complete stripping away of who a person is...to the point where their every action and every thought is that of the Master. i have actually known of one such couple in the D/s lifestyle, and when my Master made some positive remarks about the slave's mindset, i remember being scared to death, thinking that he was molding me to get to that point. but that was a false assumption on my part, that is the kind of slave he may like to use for a night, but would tire of after a few hours.

conditioning, imo, is more of a "getting accustomed to". learning to accept and tolerate something, even if it's something one internally despises or has some other issue with. one can be conditioned to accept all manner of horrible and cruel things, all sorts of ill treatment. as a survivor of many yrs of childhood abuse, i can say that even a young child can be conditioned to accept the worst sort of use and abuse. to be honest, once i became conditioned, physically and mentally, the abuse became easier to take. likewise i think one can become conditioned to accept positive things. but i think that the point of conditioning is more to get someone accustomed to a particular thing or to particular ways, so they will deal with it easier/better/with less fuss, making things easier on both the Dominant and the submissive.

 

[InnerDarkness]

I had not even considered brainwashing when I first brought this topic up, but I can see where that can and does be come an issue in some relationships. Thank you so much for commenting on it, because I had not considered that in my original thoughts.

I think it was Netzach who mentioned not wanting to change the fundamentals of the person...but working with their existing talents instead. I think that was what I was really getting at...

How often do people change (or if you are a Dom/me...do you expect/want them to change) who they are, what they think and what they feel because of their submission? I can see that you will automatically change on some level as you progress in your training and submission, but I wonder if a real, fundamental change occurs.

I think I asked this because I find myself not willing to budge in some areas that I think a Sir would want me to. I have some very set expectations and thoughts about what I want/what I will do/etc, and I have even wondered on more than one occassion if I could possibly be ready to explore some concepts involved with switching *gasp*.

I know that is a whole other thread though LOL!!!

Thanks again to everyone who responded, and I welcome any more thoughts out there.