Isn't there always some element of power exchange?

[MissTaken]

No matter whether or not two people are involved in BDSM, aren't there moments of power exchange even in tems of "vanilla " sex?

Someone is on top, someone is on bottom.
Someone sets the pace.
Someone might beg.

I am not suggesting everyone is a Dom/me or sub, but that it seems impossible to me that love making can take place on completely equal ground.

The roles may change and rapidly, but they are there.

Any thoughts on my random thought for this morning?

 

[Ebonyfire]

No matter whether or not two people are involved in BDSM, aren't there moments of power exchange even in tems of "vanilla " sex?

Someone is on top, someone is on bottom.
Someone sets the pace.
Someone might beg.

I am not suggesting everyone is a Dom/me or sub, but that it seems impossible to me that love making can take place on completely equal ground.

The roles may change and rapidly, but they are there.

Any thoughts on my random thought for this morning?

Well, I do not have sex (read intercourse) with my subs, but in my personal relationships (read lovers) I have said in the past and I still say that I have never met a truly vanilla man. They are all kinky, one way or another, sometimes you have to just dig for it!

Sex is sex, and I get my needs met by telling my partners what I want. They get their needs met by doing the same.

Happy Thanksgiving, MissT. I love ya!

Eb

 

[bunny bondage]

i honestly have no insights into the world of vanilla sex, as i have never had even an inkling of interest in it. however, i think Eb is right, most everybody has a kink of some sort.

 

[Ebonyfire]

i honestly have no insights into the world of vanilla sex, as i have never had even an inkling of interest in it. however, i think Eb is right, most everybody has a kink of some sort.

Sure, many a time I have heard from so called "vanilla" people coming out of the closet. Most said they were ashamed of their needs and were afraid they would be ridiculed for their "sickness".

Once they find an acceptance and they feel free to indulge with a willing partner, the kink blossoms, sometimes into full blown freakiness!

I love that!


Eb

 

[lovetoread]

I think that 50% of the guys on the GB would proclaim that in fact they want an equal partner.

How does one be an equal partner?

 

[Ebonyfire]

I think that 50% of the guys on the GB would proclaim that in fact they want an equal partner.

How does one be an equal partner?

I would venture to say that most D/s relationships are based on Equality.

It is a power exchange. That means that one "equal" partner gives (or transfers) his or her power to the other "equal" partner.

Subs keep talking about their "gift" of submission.

What value is that "gift" if it comes from an inferior?

I do not have ANY relationships with men who I consider inferior.

Eb

 

[bunny bondage]

i hear you, Eb. subs and doms serve the needs of each other. the respect of equal intellect and spirit are necessary for a good relationship.

 

[Goddess Helena]

I agree.
In vanilla relationships, someone has to take the lead for anything to happen. ( As I recall. )
In D/s relationships, for the power exchange to work, both people need to be equal. Only then is the gift of submission a true gift.


Helena

 

[lovetoread]

I agree.
In vanilla relationships, someone has to take the lead for anything to happen. ( As I recall. )

That is what I meant. You said it alot better.

 

[Pure]

Miss T said
Isn't there always some element of power exchange?
No matter whether or not two people are involved in BDSM, aren't there moments of power exchange even in tems of "vanilla " sex?

Someone is on top, someone is on bottom.
Someone sets the pace.
Someone might beg.


Wise words. Yes, I think 'power' is always on the agenda, often 'held' by one partner, even if 'vanilla.' How to tell, that's the question: Well, as you say, the one who sets the pace, determines what's going to happen or not.

Also, the one who wants the relationship LESS than does the other--i.e., the one whose threats to leave have the most impact--has the power; Is more likely, in your words, to have the other 'beg' for continuation of relationship.

So it's clear that many an alleged 'top' does not have much power, nor say a short tempered husband effectively controlled by a whiney wife.

I don't agree with the position of fine mistress Eb: My impression is that yes the subs [as she described them] have a kind of equality, they're not 'inferior' etc. BUT, if the equality is *given* by the mistress and is potentially revokable, she has the real power. It's she, for instance who is more likely to end the relationship that's not, for her, working. Call it a crass view, but if A *really* can replace B, much easier than the reverse, then A has the greater power--whoever can more credibly say "You can be replaced!"

 

[Ebonyfire]

Pure you are missing the point (again)

Originally posted by Pure
I don't agree with the position of fine mistress Eb: My impression is that yes the subs [as she described them] have a kind of equality, they're not 'inferior' etc. BUT, if the equality is *given* by the mistress and is potentially revokable, she has the real power.

Dismissing a sub has nothing to do with his equally as a human being.

And of course submissives can and do discontinue relationships. They have a choice. They are not helpless or inferior.

Eb

 

[catalina_francisco]

Interesting concepts

 

[NYCgirl26]

Hmmm I was thinking that yes there is always a power exchange, but then I was thinking about something that Miss T started this thread with. "Some one is on top; someone on bttom" and I wonder if it is because we are into BDSM that we see a power exchange when others (vanilla) may not.

For example: Even though I am Daminant I still frequently enjoy having subbie boy on top during sex. I see it as he is the one "doing the work," at my direction, for my pleasure. So even though I am on the bottom I still retain power, and he feels very submissive. Though stricly looking at the position someone else may not think that. Sorry this is not comming out very clearly so I'll just stop now.

NYCgirl

 

[Quint]

Hmmm I was thinking that yes there is always a power exchange, but then I was thinking about something that Miss T started this thread with. "Some one is on top; someone on bttom" and I wonder if it is because we are into BDSM that we see a power exchange when others (vanilla) may not.

For example: Even though I am Daminant I still frequently enjoy having subbie boy on top during sex. I see it as he is the one "doing the work," at my direction, for my pleasure. So even though I am on the bottom I still retain power, and he feels very submissive. Though stricly looking at the position someone else may not think that. Sorry this is not comming out very clearly so I'll just stop now.

NYCgirl

I don't know if that's necessarily what MissT meant; whenever T wants it, I'm on top, but I'm never woman superior, if you know what I mean. But the majority of the time, the person on top does control the pace of the action. I find it more of a figure of speech than a literal phrase.

 

[WriterDom]

woman superior [/B]

pleasing penis can be on top, and should be at times

 

[Netzach]

I wouldn't say that there's never a moment where power isn't being played out, balanced or unbalanced, or *in the works* in any human interaction.

I just think there are people and circumstances in which it's not such an all-consuming BFD as we like to make it in the SM community.

 

[Never]

There is a difference between power exchange, roles, and ‘kink’.
In addition, to say what goes on in a vanilla relationship is power exchange is like saying meditation is prayer. It’s an oversimplification of matters.

MissTaken:
“It seems impossible to me that love making can take place on completely equal ground.”

I’d suggest that love can only take place on equal ground but that it’s not necessary for sex.

 

[MissTaken]

There is a difference between power exchange, roles, and ‘kink’.
In addition, to say what goes on in a vanilla relationship is power exchange is like saying meditation is prayer. It’s an oversimplification of matters.

MissTaken:
“It seems impossible to me that love making can take place on completely equal ground.”

I’d suggest that love can only take place on equal ground but that it’s not necessary for sex.

You are probably right on all counts, Never. I think that when I started this thread, it was intended to give some of the non BDSM folks some indication of what the power exchange is about, to try to generate some empathy. I believe at the time, the BDSMers were taking some "hits."

Yes, love happens on equal footing, regardless of the apparent inequality of the roles taken in the relationship. IMHO, respect works that way!


As for relationships in general, finding the missing piece to the puzzle that completes you is the trick. That may be in terms of BDSM or not. It may include power exchange or not. A submissive needs a Dominant to complete her, the right Dominant and a woman *vanilla* needs a partner that will compliment her and complete her.

As for sex, in any arena, it is about giving and receiving. This "giving" is not always on equal terms in the simplest sense, but meeting another's needs happens on equal terms.

I don't know if I am making any sense.

 

[deepstare]

??

Ok, normally I'm pretty good at figuring out concepts, but what exactly is vanilla supposed to mean? Great stuff here by the way, very thoughtful.

 

[s'lara]

Re: ??

Ok, normally I'm pretty good at figuring out concepts, but what exactly is vanilla supposed to mean? Great stuff here by the way, very thoughtful.

Hello and welcome deepstare.

Vanilla is kink free. No aspect of BDSM involvement sexually or non-sexually. Person(s) who do not move within the BDSM culture in any aspect.

Hope that makes sense.

lara

 

[s'lara]

As for my thoughts on power exchange.

i believe power is an issue for those who either want to relenquish it or obtain it. The concept of power has to be important to those involved in exchanging it otherwise, why bother with the back and forth?

Is there always some element of power exchange? Not in relation to those who don't see it as important. For me, it was paramount simply because i preferred to have that control in the hands of another.

There are power struggles in many areas of life, but i wouldn't make the determination that all things are about the pursuit of power and the relenquishment of it.

lara

 

[deepstare]

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks lara. I'll have to do some serious thinking on this...It's very intriguing though...

 

[deepstare]

I'm going to bring Aristotle into this. He had a pretty simply yet genious notion: there is equality among equals, inequality among unequals.

I think there is a definate power "shift" (I'm not thrilled about that word) albiet a concensual and therefore equal one from the sub to the dom. How do I say this...

My understanding of a dom/sub relationship has the dom in power. But this power is granted by the sub, kind of like a state representitive of the people. Using that analogy, the dom does what is best for the two because the sub has willingly submitted power. And hopefully the decisions made do benefit the two. But if they do not, then the power is liable to being lost. Think of the Declaration of Independence, how it said people can overthrow a governing body if that body makes poor decisions. Same thing happening in an ideal dom/sub relation.

Is that making any sense?

 

[littlegirlslut]

I just stumbled across this thread and found it fascinating. I think this power exchange/balance/integration issue was the main reason a LT vanilla relationship of mine recently failed. Granted there was a lot behind this issue and it was not the cause.

I think all human relationships have power exchanges of some kind. There's usually a more alpha friend in a relationship - makes more decisions, etc.

 

[SubKekiLee]

I'm going to bring Aristotle into this. He had a pretty simply yet genious notion: there is equality among equals, inequality among unequals.

I think there is a definate power "shift" (I'm not thrilled about that word) albiet a concensual and therefore equal one from the sub to the dom. How do I say this...

My understanding of a dom/sub relationship has the dom in power. But this power is granted by the sub, kind of like a state representitive of the people. Using that analogy, the dom does what is best for the two because the sub has willingly submitted power. And hopefully the decisions made do benefit the two. But if they do not, then the power is liable to being lost. Think of the Declaration of Independence, how it said people can overthrow a governing body if that body makes poor decisions. Same thing happening in an ideal dom/sub relation.

Is that making any sense?

I stumbled over this thread as well I agree with you 100% Vanilla relationships have power exchanges as well.. Ive submitted to my D that he can be the one in control but if there was something that was totally innappropriate or not right I could take my power back and say NO... Ie pedophiles or sex with animals or kids etc ..