Islamic & Christian Fundamentalism--What's the difference?

[about_average]

If this represents a SERIOUS Christian clergy call to righteous violence DIRECTLY ANALOGOUS to ISLAMIC JIHAD (which I believe is the point lib critics keep trying to make in indicting Christianity in response to any act of Islamic terrorism), why hasn't there been wide scale slaughter of innocent gays and lesbians prior to Orlando?

When does the number killed become "wide scale"? Yes, 50 at one go is a lot, but still hasn't reached the numbers killed here in the US before that. If 50 is considered "wide scale" why isn't 32 wide scale? Is 50 the magic number?

Despite the phone calls I'm not wholly convinced this was an Islamic based killing as much as it was a was a hatred-of-homosexuality based killing, just like all the other killings in the US that have targeted, specifically, homosexuals because the bible says it's evil.
Yes, his hatred of homosexuality came from his interpretation of Islam, but I suspect that mainly he was just emboldened by other similar events that actually sprang from the call to jihad.

 

[Christobal]

When does the number killed become "wide scale"? Yes, 50 at one go is a lot, but still hasn't reached the numbers killed here in the US before that. If 50 is considered "wide scale" why isn't 32 wide scale? Is 50 the magic number?

Despite the phone calls I'm not wholly convinced this was an Islamic based killing as much as it was a was a hatred-of-homosexuality based killing, just like all the other killings in the US that have targeted, specifically, homosexuals because the bible says it's evil.
Yes, his hatred of homosexuality came from his interpretation of Islam, but I suspect that mainly he was just emboldened by other similar events that actually sprang from the call to jihad.

From the lastest news he was gay or confused and hated himself.

 

[hashtag45]

The thing is (and I'm only referring to contemporary Christianity, not to the past):
I haven't come across such extreme attitudes -that you guys are describing- back home (South Eu) and in NZ or Australia.

I only came across a minuscule nombers of such vile hateful attitudes.
Even if some Christians seemed a bit bigotted or judgmental at first glance, when it came to the bones of it they were able to get past that and to engage in acts of kindness & help a fellow human being.

Why do several GB posters differ So Drastically in their take on these things?
Different life experiences? Geography? (Maybe Christians of a particular orientation are more numerous in certain areas from the States compared to others US parts, or compared to Au or NZ and Eu).
Or maybe because of my sparse and superficial interactions wirt Christians, I only saw the best.

I'm not knowledgeable in the area of religions or so on. But I'm very puzzled by what's been going on in this forum and I still haven't got my head around it (which part is objective reality, what part is related to subjective views and what parts are related to GB interpersonal dynamics)

 

[Que]

From the lastest news he was gay or confused and hated himself.

That isn't "news" that is "spin."

See the following, the spin is working....

~snip~

Despite the phone calls I'm not wholly convinced this was an Islamic based killing as much as it was a was a hatred-of-homosexuality based killing, just like all the other killings in the US that have targeted, specifically, homosexuals because the bible says it's evil.
Yes, his hatred of homosexuality came from his interpretation of Islam, but I suspect that mainly he was just emboldened by other similar events that actually sprang from the call to jihad.

So it was just his interpretation of Islam that homosexuality is to be hated, a hatred that springs from the Bible. Because Christians.

Got it.

 

[Christobal]

The thing is (and I'm only referring to contemporary Christianity, not to the past):
I haven't come across such extreme attitudes -that you guys are describing- back home (South Eu) and in NZ or Australia.

I only came across a minuscule nombers of such vile hateful attitudes.
Even if some Christians seemed a bit bigotted or judgmental at first glance, when it came to the bones of it they were able to get past that and to engage in acts of kindness & help a fellow human being.

Why do several GB posters differ So Drastically in their take on these things?
Different life experiences? Geography? (Maybe Christians of a particular orientation are more numerous in certain areas from the States compared to others US parts, or compared to Au or NZ and Eu).
Or maybe because of my sparse and superficial interactions wirt Christians, I only saw the best.

I'm not knowledgeable in the area of religions or so on. But I'm very puzzled by what's been going on in this forum and I still haven't got my head around it (which part is objective reality, what part is related to subjective views and what parts are related to GB interpersonal dynamics)

I asked the same questions but once I got past the extremists that made me flee and declared I want no part of this. Then I realized that the loudest people should not be listened to.

 

[hashtag45]

I asked the same questions but once I got past the extremists that made me flee and declared I want no part of this. Then I realized that the loudest people should not be listened to.

I actually am Very interested, because it seems to me like this split between (fundamentalistic or not) atheists, Christians supporters and Muslim supporters is starting to permeate all aspects of society.
I'm even starting to come across it IRL, which is odd, because to me, until now, Australians seemed to be less preoccupied by these things than Americans.

It's like at a larger level (concerning 'Elites') the 21st century is becoming a time where this neo-feudalistic global village ruled by a few is gradually creeping on us.
-- Yet at our level (the laypersons), despite the fluidity of barriers immigration internet and such, people are becoming more split in such views.

These GB discussions just reminded me of an internet comment that I came across and glossed over without much thought: "Why Religion will dominate 21st century".

 

[Pookie]

Care to speculate on why the laws prohibiting murder seem to have had a greater effect on restraining Christian homophobes than a Muslim homophobe in this latest instance?

Since you want to focus on the latest instance, I'm not sure how you can speculate such a thing. It's a very isolated incident. There aren't but one or two examples of gay mass murders total in this country to speculate on, at least over the past fifty years or more.

The Orlando mass murder currently has way too many unknowns as well. For one, there is a very good possibility the "jihadist" may have been gay himself. According to other patrons, this guy had been something of a regular at Pulse for the past three years. He was one of them. He got along with them. He got drunk with them. Others who claim to be aware of him have mentioned he frequented other gay bars in Florida, that he was using gay dating apps. A lot of current evidence at this time points to him being a gay Muslim.

So lets speculate. What was his true motivation? Imans? Self-hate? An object of his affection spurned him in an embarrassing way? Someone was about to out him to his family/church? Did he claim ISIS motivated him to try to give a "narrative" or epitaph for his death that wouldn't be embarrassing for his family? Was he just a looney tune? Was it some combination of some or all? Lots of unknowns. Lots probably still to find out. Way too early to conclusively say what this guy's real motivation for the mass murder was.

To broaden the speculation beyond Orlando, when it comes to individual murders that were hate crimes against gays motivated by the perp's religion, I don't know of any statistics that separate out those that were Muslim vs Christian inspired in this country. There may be some published somewhere. I dare say the number of Muslim perps is likely too small to make a valid statistical comparison to Christian motivated perps though. I suspect any difference in the ratio is not statistically significant.

What different setting? The crime was committed in Orlando. There are gay clubs in most moderate to large size cities. What's stopping Christian vigilantes from "getting right with God"? The law? You don't seem to have noticed that militant Jihadists are not the least bit shy about murdering innocent people in a host of places where it is decidedly against the law.

When I referred to setting, I'm referring to this country vs. those governed under Islamic law. Laws in this country at least help prevent it from being open season on openly gay people. And you're using a discussion of one mass murder in Orlando to throw out a proclamation that Jihadists aren't "the least bit shy"? And YOU rolled your eyes at me?! Oh, dear Colonel, bless your heart!

 

[boogerflipper]

The FBI is about to arrest his wife for involvement because she knew he was going to attack the Pulse that morning and even pleaded with him not to, went with him previously when he cased different possible attack points (including Disney, which he scoped-out once again the Saturday before the attack), was totally aware of the ammunition and weapons purchases the jihadi made and what he intended to do with both, and is the mother of their 3-year-old son.

His father is Afghani Taliban, the killer's previous jihadi alliances and sympathies are on record, as the FBI became interested enough in him to investigate his for terrorism twice.

Definitely sounds like a homophobe who was gay himself and went on his murderous rampage simply because he was so intolerably ashamed of his true sexuality.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

Since you want to focus on the latest instance, I'm not sure how you can speculate such a thing. It's a very isolated incident. There aren't but one or two examples of gay mass murders total in this country to speculate on, at least over the past fifty years or more.

The Orlando mass murder currently has way too many unknowns as well. For one, there is a very good possibility the "jihadist" may have been gay himself. According to other patrons, this guy had been something of a regular at Pulse for the past three years. He was one of them. He got along with them. He got drunk with them. Others who claim to be aware of him have mentioned he frequented other gay bars in Florida, that he was using gay dating apps. A lot of current evidence at this time points to him being a gay Muslim.

So lets speculate. What was his true motivation? Imans? Self-hate? An object of his affection spurned him in an embarrassing way? Someone was about to out him to his family/church? Did he claim ISIS motivated him to try to give a "narrative" or epitaph for his death that wouldn't be embarrassing for his family? Was he just a looney tune? Was it some combination of some or all? Lots of unknowns. Lots probably still to find out. Way too early to conclusively say what this guy's real motivation for the mass murder was.

To broaden the speculation beyond Orlando, when it comes to individual murders that were hate crimes against gays motivated by the perp's religion, I don't know of any statistics that separate out those that were Muslim vs Christian inspired in this country. There may be some published somewhere. I dare say the number of Muslim perps is likely too small to make a valid statistical comparison to Christian motivated perps though. I suspect any difference in the ratio is not statistically significant.

I wouldn't take issue with any of that except to say that the statistical comparison between current day Muslim perps and Christian perps suffers from a scarcity of actual Christian perps at ALL!! Where the hell are they other than loud mouth ignorant preachers who haven't lifted a finger against anyone? That AND the fact that the statistics would be further skewed by militant Jihadists carrying out the death penalty for a shitload more offenses other than homosexuality -- like adultery, simply not being Muslim, or even being the "wrong kind" of Muslim by not embracing strict Sharia law -- in other words, the majority of all other Muslim sects.

Other than these niggling little differences, I guess the ratio between current day Christian fundamentalist violence and Muslim fundamentalist violence is not "statistically significant." Really, Pook. There aren't enough "eyeballs."

When I referred to setting, I'm referring to this country vs. those governed under Islamic law. Laws in this country at least help prevent it from being open season on openly gay people. And you're using a discussion of one mass murder in Orlando to throw out a proclamation that Jihadists aren't "the least bit shy"? And YOU rolled your eyes at me?! Oh, dear Colonel, bless your heart!

No, I'm basing my conclusion that Jihadists aren't the least bit shy about breaking the law based on a host of successful (as well as thwarted) terrorist acts committed long before 9/11. The gay issue is really secondary to this whole false comparison about Christian violence and Muslim violence.

Furthermore, countries governed by Islamic law don't just allow anyone to enforce it. You may be encouraged to rat out your neighbor if you see him through your window wanking off to a smuggled copy of Penthouse, but the law still reserves punishment to the state.

There is no government endorsed legislation that I am aware of that sanctions the type of bloody sectarian violence currently plaguing Iraq. What would it say? "We're not going to decide in advance which side is theologically correct, so have at it"?

Nobody's "law" works that way.

 

[Pookie]

I wouldn't take issue with any of that except to say that the statistical comparison between current day Muslim perps and Christian perps suffers from a scarcity of actual Christian perps at ALL!!

Agreed, but your exception is meaningless. We have one Muslim perp involved in a mass murder of gays possibly motivated by his religion. Maybe. Out of how many mass murder events of gays in this country?

Where the hell are they other than loud mouth ignorant preachers who haven't lifted a finger against anyone? That AND the fact that the statistics would be further skewed by militant Jihadists carrying out the death penalty for a shitload more offenses other than homosexuality -- like adultery, simply not being Muslim, or even being the "wrong kind" of Muslim by not embracing strict Sharia law -- in other words, the majority of all other Muslim sects.

I suppose the laws of this country pose a bit of a problem for them carrying out such things here, which was my point. It's not illegal to commit adultery here. It's not illegal to be part of any of the various religions here. Homosexuality isn't illegal. So your "fact" is rather meaningless to the discussion as well.

Other than these niggling little differences, I guess the ratio between current day Christian fundamentalist violence and Muslim fundamentalist violence is not "statistically significant." Really, Pook. There aren't enough "eyeballs."

Based on a fair amount of what you stated in this post, you might want to roll your eyes back in your head and re-read my posts. You appear to be all over the place with your reply.

No, I'm basing my conclusion that Jihadists aren't the least bit shy about breaking the law based on a host of successful (as well as thwarted) terrorist acts committed long before 9/11. The gay issue is really secondary to this whole false comparison about Christian violence and Muslim violence.

The crime statistics in this country don't support your conclusion. If they aren't the least bit shy as you say, why aren't they committing the crimes in this country that the Imans are calling them to do?

Christian violence in this country has been very real over the years. It's likely very proportionate to the breakdown of religion here ... while I also admit there is really no way for me to substantiate that opinion with stats.

Furthermore, countries governed by Islamic law don't just allow anyone to enforce it. You may be encouraged to rat out your neighbor if you see him through your window wanking off to a smuggled copy of Penthouse, but the law still reserves punishment to the state.

There is no government endorsed legislation that I am aware of that sanctions the type of bloody sectarian violence currently plaguing Iraq. What would it say? "We're not going to decide in advance which side is theologically correct, so have at it"?

Nobody's "law" works that way.

The Islamic governments may not allow just anyone, but it still occurs. As you said yourself, Jihadists aren't the least bit shy about breaking the law.

The laws may well be restricted as to who can carry out the killing, but the killings do occur - just usually more often with the Islamic State's seal of approval. However, it's really of little comfort to the "infidel" that some semblance of due process was carried out before the predetermined penalty for their sexual orientation was carried out by an Islamic government "sanctioned" executioner.

 

[Hard_Rom]

10,000 killed every year. Americans don't need religious reasons to murder one another. They apparently have more than enough reasons.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

Agreed, but your exception is meaningless. We have one Muslim perp involved in a mass murder of gays possibly motivated by his religion. Maybe. Out of how many mass murder events of gays in this country?

Just this one that I am aware of. Are you aware of others? Thus, Christians are 0 for 1 in gay mass murders and Muslims, accepting your hedge, are possibly 1 for 1.

I suppose the laws of this country pose a bit of a problem for them carrying out such things here, which was my point. It's not illegal to commit adultery here. It's not illegal to be part of any of the various religions here. Homosexuality isn't illegal. So your "fact" is rather meaningless to the discussion as well.

The crime statistics in this country don't support your conclusion. If they aren't the least bit shy as you say, why aren't they committing the crimes in this country that the Imans are calling them to do?

Christian violence in this country has been very real over the years. It's likely very proportionate to the breakdown of religion here ... while I also admit there is really no way for me to substantiate that opinion with stats.

I will cease after this post, and we'll agree to disagree. But let's start with what we both know. Theologically inspired violence is an extremely small aberration of both mainstream Christianity and Islam in current practice. My sole beef in this matter is the wholly false and exaggerated comparison between those two aberrations that some people make with no reliance on current data. If one can't substantiate the opinion, what is it based on? Nothing but bias.

The irrefutable facts that we have to compare the two violent aberrations of the two major religions are: 1. the "offenses" for which the violence is allegedly justified, 2. the theoretical and practical geographic range over which the violence is expected to be applied, and 3. the number of instances and scope of casualties within those instances when the violence has actually taken place.

By all three of those measures the aberration of present day militant Jihad far exceeds the ambition and tragic impact of whatever present day Christian inspired violence one could possibly identify.

Taking each of the above points individually. The hot buttons for Christians these days seem to be gays and abortions. So, according to a handful of rabid, racist preachers, gays "deserve" death as do the murderers of unborn babies. In response, we have the exceedingly rare instance of a Christian killing a homosexual or physician who performs abortions or the bombing of an abortion clinic.

What we don't have are these same preachers advocating death for adulterers on the basis of identical Old Testament sanctions. A rather curious theological oversight, don't you think?

What we also don't have is a call for Christians to kill non-Christian "infidels" or the establishment of a world wide Christian theocratic government to be imposed upon pain of death to anyone who would oppose that effort.

In both of these last two distinctions, militant Jihad greatly eclipses the violent aspirations of aberrant Christianity.

Secondly, is the issue of geographical reach. Militant Jihadists have proven their ability to strike targets outside the Middle East. Paris, Belgium, Spain, the United States and Lockerbie, Scotland to name but a few. Show me any evidence of a comparable current Christian program of organized violence that reaches outside the boundaries that some nutcase can drive to in his rusted out pickup truck. I'll wait.

Finally, there is the specific body count over the past several decades. Again, take the deaths resulting from 9/11, the USS Cole, Khobar towers, U. S. embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya, the shootings at Fort Hood and in Santa Barbara, and now Orlando along with similar attacks throughout the world and place those deaths and injuries up against any Christian acts of theological violence you could creditably cite. There is simply no reasonable comparison.

I'll leave you be, Pook. Know that you continue to have my greatest respect and affection.

 

[Pookie]

I'll leave you be, Pook. Know that you continue to have my greatest respect and affection.

And you know that I think you're one of the brightest people here. I always feel like I have to be on my toes as we "debate" (and I like to think of it as that).

You always come prepared, and your replies always make me think ... and occasionally change my mind!

 

[Sean]

I wouldn't take issue with any of that except to say that the statistical comparison between current day Muslim perps and Christian perps suffers from a scarcity of actual Christian perps at ALL!! Where the hell are they other than loud mouth ignorant preachers who haven't lifted a finger against anyone?

You should come visit. Three murders in the last month, I was evacuated from my home three times last year because of actual bombs on my street. And I absolutely fucking guarantee the perpetrators called themselves Christian.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

You should come visit. Three murders in the last month, I was evacuated from my home three times last year because of actual bombs on my street. And I absolutely fucking guarantee the perpetrators called themselves Christian.

Your exception of Northern Ireland is duly and accurately noted. But here again, we're talking about a geographically local Christian (on both sides) aberration compared to a Jihadist vision that is global.

Besides, when most folks make the Christian-Islamic argument of equivalent violence, I suspect they are thinking of American Christians specifically. Not that that diminishes your point.

And please believe I wish nothing for you but your safety and long life.

 

[phrodeau]

Christians are still killing apostates. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/seven-people-facing-murder-charges-6896255

Christians are still firebombing other places of worship. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-coachella-mosque-fire-sentencing-20160301-story.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...6b70f2-a796-11e2-9e1c-bb0fb0c2edd9_story.html

 

[Colonel Hogan]

Christians are still killing apostates. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/seven-people-facing-murder-charges-6896255

Christians are still firebombing other places of worship. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-coachella-mosque-fire-sentencing-20160301-story.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...6b70f2-a796-11e2-9e1c-bb0fb0c2edd9_story.html

One dead in the first link, no injuries in the next two. The arson in the second link dates back to the San Bernardino shootings and the third involves a drunk who claims no religious affiliation whatsoever.

Yep, keep those Christian violence citations coming. You've got a hell of a lot of catching up to do with the Jihadists.

 

[about_average]

That isn't "news" that is "spin."

See the following, the spin is working....



So it was just his interpretation of Islam that homosexuality is to be hated, a hatred that springs from the Bible. Because Christians.

Got it.

Obviously you don't.

Abrahamic religious roots go back further that Christ, as does their hatred of homosexuals.
You obviously didn't watch any of the videos linked in this thread or are ignorant of where Leviticus falls in the historical timeline. Or both.

Hatred of homosexuals is common among all Abrahamic religions.

 

[knottygirl]

Christians are still killing apostates. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/seven-people-facing-murder-charges-6896255

Christians are still firebombing other places of worship. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-coachella-mosque-fire-sentencing-20160301-story.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...6b70f2-a796-11e2-9e1c-bb0fb0c2edd9_story.html

So Muslims carry out 99% of religiously motivated violence rather than 100%. What's your point?

 

[Knot Again]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClEUdogWMAA85Bi.jpg

the SAME

 

[hashtag45]

Nice scorecard.
But it forgot to mention where all these happened.

 

[Knot Again]

Nice scorecard.
But it forgot to mention where all these happened.

50 in the US, the rest either LOOK UP or assume its a LIE!

 

[JohnnySavage]

Why are we excluding the Jews from the religious carnage

 

[richard_daily]

You should come visit. Three murders in the last month, I was evacuated from my home three times last year because of actual bombs on my street. And I absolutely fucking guarantee the perpetrators called themselves Christian.

Why don't you just outlaw bombs?

 

[Knot Again]

the FAG MUSLIM writes

We must stand up against the anti-Muslim responses that come so easily in this current political climate.

what ANTI MUSLIM responses?

why doesnt he say, MUSLIMS have got to stop KILLING and DEMONIZING DA GAZE?