Islam could get better

[KingOrfeo]

Spinoff from this thread.

What was actually said..

"Unless we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ," Obama said Wednesday. "And in our home country, slavery, and Jim Crow, all too often was justified in the name of Christ."
Obama made the comments while giving a major speech on religion at the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington, D.C. Citing Islamic, Jewish, and Christian scripture, Obama touted his own faith.

"This prayer tradition has brought us together, giving us the opportunity to come together in humility before the Almighty and to be reminded of what it is that we share as children of God," he said. "And certainly for me this is always a chance to reflect on my own faith journey. No matter the challenge He has been there for all of us. He certainly strengthened me through the power of his spirit."

Obama went on to condemn violent jihadists who are "betraying" Islam. He specifically called out the Islamic State group that has "carried out unspeakable acts of barbarism" in the Middle East and the militants who recently massacred the employees of the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo.

"This is not unique to one group or one religion," Obama cautioned. "There is a tendency in us, a sinful tendency, that can pervert and distort our faith. And in today's world when hate groups have their own Twitter accounts and bigotry can fester in hidden places in cyberspace, it can be even harder to combat such intolerance. But God compels us to try."


Where exactly did the President say anything wrong?

Now, I read that and I think, how fortunate we are, to have arrived at a point in history where horrible things done in Christ's name are almost all in the past! Not long past -- as recently as the 1960s some people were using the Bible and the "Curse of Ham" to justify racism -- but all of that has fallen by the wayside. Very infrequent murders of abortion providers are the only Christian atrocities that seem to happen any more.

I think Dar al-Islam is about where Christendom was in the 17th Century, when religious differences appeared to be worth fighting over. Christendom got better. It took a long time, but Christendom got better -- partly by becoming what we might now call more Christian, in the love-thy-neighbor ethical sense, but mainly by becoming less religious and more secular. Islam could get better, by that same route. And the modern age being what it is, it probably will not take another 400 years; all international cultural pressures tend in the direction of secularization. At some point in the future, all the world's Muslims are going to look back at today's jihadism, ISIS, etc., the same way Christians look back at the 30 Years' War, wondering what all the fuss was about and why anybody thought this a war worth fighting.

And we had all better hope I am right. Because Islam is not going away. Today, one human being in five is a Muslim. 100 years ago, one human being in five was a Muslim. 100 years from now, one human being in five will be a Muslim. Best-case scenario is one where most of them are just Ramadan-and-Hajj Muslims, analogous to Christmas-and-Easter Christians.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I highly doubt your one in five will keep holding to be perfectly honest with you Orf. i think your starting with a terribly pessismitic view that doesn't frankly hold with observable facts. I think in a few hundred years the things we think of as religion will be dead and gone. Now whether we manage to get into a fight with the sea otters over what the most logical name is for the Atheist Alliance. . .I won't be around to see. But one way or another this that we're seeing in the Middle East is religions last great gasp.

Yes, you can run the numbers all you want about how X% of Americans count themselves as Christian but do they take the Bible Literally? Do they think that times are changing and we should change with them? At what point are they calling themselves Christians but not really Christians? Or Jews or Muslims? I don't think a Jew eating bacon wrapped Shrimp, teaching evolution and saying the Torah is a guideline is a Jew anymore than I'm a Jedi when I tell you that anger leads to hate.

Also Modern Day "Christians" often forget that they have the full force of the law and most of if not all of the most powerful armies on their side. People don't shoot up grocery stores to get their way when Congress says 'we aren't going to address Gay marriage.' You don't suicide bomb when you have drones. We're winning in such radical terms that we don't know what to do about it.

 

[KingOrfeo]

I think in a few hundred years the things we think of as religion will be dead and gone.

Well, look at Europe. Actual religious belief and practice have declined to the point where some call it "post-Christian," though there are still a great many practicing Christians. And America may be like that one day, I certainly hope so, and the sooner the better. Yet Europe -- like the whole of the Western Hemisphere and all the English-speaking nations -- remains Christian in a cultural sense, its civilization shaped by Christianity and Christian values and world-view. In that sense, Dar al-Islam, even if "post-Islamic," will always be Islamic.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Christian or Islamic in a cultural sense is a dubious thing however. We already know there are plenty of Muslims who are at worst Muslim the same way Europe is Christian. I don't mind getting Christmas off, at this point sure it's "Christian" but who gives a shit?

I don't honestly think that Islam will be able to hold out in the long term vs Christianity. . .or rather Capitalism/Corporatism whatever you want to call it. When I was in Iraq fucking going on thirteen years ago you could get Pizza Hut and Burger King and bootleg movies. And to fight against that they have to fight not just against Christianity/the West but I've been to Japan and my uncles have all done China for the Olympics. Islam is stuck in the middle of two cultures that are working damn hard (despite outward appearances) to syenergize. In the long run Islam just doesn't seem to have a lot to offer in the way of either fun or worth (though I'll grant the second is on shakey ground.)

 

[CandiCame]

Well, look at Europe. Actual religious belief and practice have declined to the point where some call it "post-Christian," though there are still a great many practicing Christians. And America may be like that one day, I certainly hope so, and the sooner the better. Yet Europe -- like the whole of the Western Hemisphere and all the English-speaking nations -- remains Christian in a cultural sense, its civilization shaped by Christianity and Christian values and world-view. In that sense, Dar al-Islam, even if "post-Islamic," will always be Islamic.

Well, if you call Paganism wrapped in a barely passable Jesus costume a "Christian Culture" I guess that's true. But if I'm kissing under the mistletoe that killed a Norse god so I'll remember his rebirth on the solstice, next to a Celtic fertility tree while burning a Yule log and drinking a cup of Mayan hot chocolate I don't really think it counts as "Christian" culture. I can't really think of any actual "Christian" thing I do that permeates my everyday life as an American.

Edit: Except for the 'pretending to be straight so I can get basic human rights" thing, but that's notsomuch a Christian cultural thing as just an asshole thing that hides behind Christianity. That's holding up Jesus pretending that he's cool with you being a dick when he's actually tell you to shut the fuck up, he rendered the lists from Levidicus moot in the New Testimate. Unless you're calling him a liar. Which modern Christians seem to do quite a lot, actually.

 

[Sean Renaud]

He didn't render the Old Testament Moot, that's a popular myth.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Spinoff from this thread.



Now, I read that and I think, how fortunate we are, to have arrived at a point in history where horrible things done in Christ's name are almost all in the past! Not long past -- as recently as the 1960s some people were using the Bible and the "Curse of Ham" to justify racism -- but all of that has fallen by the wayside. Very infrequent murders of abortion providers are the only Christian atrocities that seem to happen any more.

I think Dar al-Islam is about where Christendom was in the 17th Century, when religious differences appeared to be worth fighting over. Christendom got better. It took a long time, but Christendom got better -- partly by becoming what we might now call more Christian, in the love-thy-neighbor ethical sense, but mainly by becoming less religious and more secular. Islam could get better, by that same route. And the modern age being what it is, it probably will not take another 400 years; all international cultural pressures tend in the direction of secularization. At some point in the future, all the world's Muslims are going to look back at today's jihadism, ISIS, etc., the same way Christians look back at the 30 Years' War, wondering what all the fuss was about and why anybody thought this a war worth fighting.

And we had all better hope I am right. Because Islam is not going away. Today, one human being in five is a Muslim. 100 years ago, one human being in five was a Muslim. 100 years from now, one human being in five will be a Muslim. Best-case scenario is one where most of them are just Ramadan-and-Hajj Muslims, analogous to Christmas-and-Easter Christians.

Niggers are their own justification for racism.

Many years ago I was out at Claire Mel City reading gas meters, and one of the meters was inside a pen with a big fucking dog. The owner says GO ON IN HE WONT HURT YOU. So I went in the pen and the dog devoured me. That's how niggers are.

 

[CandiCame]

He didn't render the Old Testament Moot, that's a popular myth.

I never said he rendered the old testiment moot. But Jesus specifically addressed the laws that were written in Levidicus and said that they were no longer to be followed, mainly because they were too similar to those followed by Rome and politically the Jews needed to distance themselves. It's why Christians don't have to be Kosher.

This is actually a pretty good explanation. That way I don't have to go article by article the way he does. But he (Christ) goes over everything that was listed in Lev and tells what is still forbidden and the gay doesn't make the cut; neither does the dietary restriction, the share-cropping restriction, or the fashion restrictions; which is why Christian folk don't have to wear traditionally Jewish dress anymore and are allowed to partake in the western beauty standard rather than being oppressed by modesty.

He also upps the ante on some of the Lev laws, like now not only can you not get divorced, you can't get divorced 'in your heart' so you can't become emotionally distant from your lover. There are a ton of those too. Where the laws are not only still in tact but they're now more severe.

And he says that these laws are subject to change again and prophets will tell you when they do. Which is why the mormons think that they can have the all-American Prophet. So basically, at this point nobody knows what the fuck god wants because honestly... if he did tell someone the new rules, we won't listen. It's just not how we roll anymore.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Well, if you call Paganism wrapped in a barely passable Jesus costume a "Christian Culture" I guess that's true. But if I'm kissing under the mistletoe that killed a Norse god so I'll remember his rebirth on the solstice, next to a Celtic fertility tree while burning a Yule log and drinking a cup of Mayan hot chocolate I don't really think it counts as "Christian" culture. I can't really think of any actual "Christian" thing I do that permeates my everyday life as an American.

I was thinking more in ethical-worldview terms. The morality plays and moral lessons that run through all Western media for children and for adults, if they exist in non-Christian cultures, are probably somewhat different in moral content. Within Christendom that very moral content changes over time, but it changes in ways that a Christian world-view, lingering to some degree even among unbelievers, has in some sense made possible; it's hard to imagine a Sexual Revolution or a Feminist Revolution or a Civil Rights Revolution happening in the Islamic world in quite the same way, with the same moral justifications presented, as it happened here.

 

[Lyodran]

I'm certain it'll be more than one out of five being muslim in 100 years.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I'm certain it'll be more than one out of five being muslim in 100 years.

Then you're quite insane.

 

[KingOrfeo]

I'm certain it'll be more than one out of five being muslim in 100 years.

It is several centuries, now, since Muslims have had very much success in missionary work, and I don't think any further expansion by conquest is in the cards.

 

[unregistered]

 

[KingOrfeo]

Yes, 100 years from now as Christianity declines in the West, Islam ascends in the East where in many more places each day we see it rise up to corrupt, to slay the innocent, to seize territory to stamp out liberty, to impose it's Sharia on threats against life and limb, we see it strive to supplant the values of the West with it's Eastern tyranny, as it has done throughout the history of Islam.

See post #12.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I know how to make Islam go away.

 

[unregistered]

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

It's BS. It's ongoing and has been for centuries. What do you think the War on Terror is all about? What do you think Kosovo was about? What do you think the inroads of Islam into Europe is all about? It's about the ongoing friction between Eastern and Western Civilization, it's about the defeat of the West and it's defense.

When the Peaceful Muslims hang KO on a meathook he'll wanna kiss their rings and write love poems to them.

 

[KingOrfeo]

It's BS. It's ongoing and has been for centuries. What do you think the War on Terror is all about?

It is about bin Laden's dream to unite the existing Islamic world into a new Caliphate. (He seemed to think starting a world war between Islam and the West would produce that result.)

What do you think Kosovo was about?

Serbian nationalism vs. Kosovar nationalism; not Orthodox Christianity vs. Islam, those were merely distinguishing characteristics of the ethnic groups. (It's like the Irish Troubles -- they were not really about whether the Virgin Mary should be venerated or not.)

What do you think the inroads of Islam into Europe is all about?

Same thing as the "inroads" of Latinos into the U.S. is about: Job opportunities, and not Reconquista.

 

[CandiCame]

I was thinking more in ethical-worldview terms. The morality plays and moral lessons that run through all Western media for children and for adults, if they exist in non-Christian cultures, are probably somewhat different in moral content. Within Christendom that very moral content changes over time, but it changes in ways that a Christian world-view, lingering to some degree even among unbelievers, has in some sense made possible; it's hard to imagine a Sexual Revolution or a Feminist Revolution or a Civil Rights Revolution happening in the Islamic world in quite the same way, with the same moral justifications presented, as it happened here.

What are you talking about? The Koran and the Bible have exactly the same base with exactly the same rules. Many Islamic countries have had women leaders and made vast leaps in women's rights way before Christian nations. Because a few places abuse it that doesn't make it fundamentally worse. All religions are equally horrible. Christianity changed to fit morality, not the other way around. If you'd study history you'd know that. If we still went by biblical law, victims would still be forced to marry their rapists, divorce would still be punishable by death, and abortions would be free at any church. You seem to have gotten so used to Christians /saying/ that they're moral that you think it's true.

 

[KingOrfeo]

What are you talking about? The Koran and the Bible have exactly the same base with exactly the same rules.

Not quite. I don't think you'll find "turn the other cheek" or anything like it in the Koran.

 

[CandiCame]

Not quite. I don't think you'll find "turn the other cheek" or anything like it in the Koran.

Then you haven't read the Koran

And not equal are the good deed and the bad. Repel [evil] by that [deed] which is better; and thereupon the one whom between you and him is enmity [will become] as though he was a devoted friend.

But none is granted it (the above quality) except those who are patient, and none is granted it except the owner of the great portion (of the happiness in the Hereafter i.e. Paradise and in this world of a high moral character).

-----------Quran,41 (34-35)

Edit: Forgiveness and non-violence is actually pretty much the cornerstone of the book. I have no idea how you would not know that.

Edit:

Whether you reveal a good act or keep it hidden, or pardon an evil act, Allah is Ever-Pardoning, All-Powerful. (Surat An-Nisa, 149)


Make allowances for people, command what is right, and turn away from the ignorant. (Surat Al-A‘raf, 199)


That is so. And if anyone inflicts an injury the same as the one done to him and then is again oppressed, Allah will come to his aid. Allah is All-Pardoning, Ever-Forgiving. (Surat Al-Hajj, 60)


Those of you possessing affluence and ample wealth should not make oaths that they will not give to their relatives and the very poor and those who have made hijra in the way of Allah.* They should rather pardon and overlook. Would you not love Allah to forgive you? Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Surat An-Nur, 22)


It may well be that Allah will pardon them. Allah is Ever-Pardoning, Ever-Forgiving. (Surat An-Nisa, 99)

But because of their breaking of their covenant, We have cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort the true meaning of words and have forgotten a good portion of what they were reminded of. You will never cease to come upon some act of treachery on their part, except for a few of them. Yet pardon them, and overlook. Allah loves good-doers. (Surat Al-Ma’ida, 13)


You who believe! do not ask about matters which, if they were made known to you, would make things difficult for you. If you do ask about them when the Qur’an is being sent down, they will be made known to you. Allah has ignored them. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, All-Forbearing. (Surat Al-Ma’ida, 101)

It is He Who accepts repentence from His servants and pardons evil acts and knows what they do. (Surat Ash-Shura, 25)

 

[astuffedshirt_perv]

I would contend--as I always do--that the fundamental issues are economic. Muslims are poor. You mention the secularization of europe, which I contend correlates strongly to the wealth of europe. Islam's root problem, if it is economic, is that Islam bans interest.

Western economists barely know how to get an economy running (see Greece), but at least they have economic theories. All those theories are based on interest rates. How do you get a non-interest charging economy running? There isn't even a theory to how to that.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

I would contend--as I always do--that the fundamental issues are economic. Muslims are poor. You mention the secularization of europe, which I contend correlates strongly to the wealth of europe. Islam's root problem, if it is economic, is that Islam bans interest.

Western economists barely know how to get an economy running (see Greece), but at least they have economic theories. All those theories are based on interest rates. How do you get a non-interest charging economy running? There isn't even a theory to how to that.

It's not just economics, but education also. For the most part religious leaders (in Islam and in Christianity up until only a few hundred years ago, although some sects still prefer their women forego formal education) prefer that their flock be uneducated, illiterate especially, so that they are dependent on their preacher, Imam, cult leader, etc. exclusively to learn what it is that "God" expects them to do or believe, which more often than not turns out to be what the preacher, Imam, cult leader et al wants them to do or believe.

Education is key in my opinion. With education comes knowledge of economics and the ability to pull oneself out of the pits of poverty. As the population becomes more educated radical religious ideas become less influential on the population as a whole. Of course, there will always be those who pine for the old days when the majority of the population were kept ignorant and malleable to their wills.

We see this every day in religious leaders of both Islam and Christianity. The religious zealots of Islam foster hatred of all things not of their particular perversion of Islam and incite their followers to use violence to force tehir belifs onto the population at large. Religious zealots of Christianity (for the most part, abortion clinic bombers and the like being the exceptions) attempt to force their beliefs onto the population through legislative maneuvering. Attempts to regulate the reproductive rights of women according to their religious beliefs, depicting same sex couples as somehow "less than" and undeserving of the ability to love and marry their partners, and fostering mistrust in science where it conflicts with their religious beliefs (The Earth is only 6000 years old) are prime examples.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Harvard grads control Wall Street and Washington, so what does that say about the utility of a secular education? and liberals?

 

[1sickbastard]

Sure, Islam could get better. It could get worse as well.
Remember that any number of Islamic countries do NOT have a secular society, not even in principle, but governing and legal structures legitimized entirely by differing interpretations of Islam. Some 49 countries still have Blasphemy laws enforced by decades long prison sentences if not death.
Islam "getting better" (better how and for whom?) or becoming sidelined for secular government is not likely within your lifetime. Probably not for several lifetimes. If you really want to compare the evolution of religious authorities ability to exercise state power, it may be well to know that it's year 1436 in Islam. That means they're almost six centuries behind.
I refuse to wager on how long it will take before they get tired of slaughtering each other over differences in dogma, much less tolerating a society in which people can worship freely or (even more scary) refuse to worship any deity.