Is this grammatically correct?

[sr71plt]

you can usually substitute a dash for a comma, and sometimes a semicolon. You can even get away without any punctuation at all.

Not a semicolon. That's for independent clauses (or series within a series).

 

[SlightlyGone]

I have been familiar with the word for some time. Liberty can imply freedom, permission, rights, exemption, insolence, disrespect. True, I may have missed some usages. But an *act* of liberty is political.

Liberty can be many things ... such as the act of choosing how one will act ... an act of freewill is liberty ... an act of liberty can be free will ... his usage is correct and you can deny, deny, deny because you can't admit you were mistaken.

This will go in circles though ... so I'm coming to a stop on this.

 

[HectorBidon]

A short dash (a hyphen or even an en dash) wouldn't be grammatical. An em dash would be, but what was given isn't a publisher's em dash. Em dashes don't have spaces around them in publishing.

I'm a great fan of em dashes, but I upload my stories by cutting and pasting and so only use simple text characters to avoid gobbledygook escape sequences. I usually use three dashes in a row---without spaces---which works pretty well, although I once had them edited to single dashes-which was terrible-so now I specifically ask that this not be done. The problem with three dashes is that they sometimes break across the end of the line, which is awkward. Some authors use a spaced dash - like this - which I think also works pretty well. Here, at least, though I wouldn't do this in real print.

How do you get a real em dash into a story here? Do you have to upload your story as a .doc file?

I guess I kind of like the simplicity and universality of a simple text file. For example, I have no idea how to enter a non-ASCII character into this message box that I'm typing in right now. (I'm sure it could probably be done, but not without a lot of poking about to figure it out.) This imposes some limitations---no genuine em dashes, no risque accent marks, no *flashy italics*---but what the hell, it's not like we're writing for the New Yorker.

 

[sr71plt]

I use em dashes a lot. I've submitted over 850 stories here with real em dashes in them and by cut and paste directly into the submissions box and have never encountered a problem with them (that I'm aware of).

 

[_Lynn_]

I use em dashes a lot. I've submitted over 850 stories here with real em dashes in them and by cut and paste directly into the submissions box and have never encountered a problem with them (that I'm aware of).

I've never had any trouble using the real em dash when I copy and paste stories, either.

 

[HectorBidon]

I use em dashes a lot. I've submitted over 850 stories here with real em dashes in them and by cut and paste directly into the submissions box and have never encountered a problem with them (that I'm aware of).

Thanks. Guess my superstitions about special characters stem from the olden days when they wouldn't always go over right between Macs and PCs. Time for me to step up to the modern age.

 

[tomlitilia]

Thanks. Guess my superstitions about special characters stem from the olden days when they wouldn't always go over right between Macs and PCs. Time for me to step up to the modern age.

I've had both. Sometimes when I submit a doc, the em dash is transferred correctly, and sometimes it ends up being two short dashes.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

If the subject sentence is between quotation marks, so what?

 

[sr71plt]

If the subject sentence is between quotation marks, so what?

Punctuation isn't one of things you can throw out the window by making it dialogue. There are standard ways (not necessarily an "only way," though) of punctuating dialogue, because you are still trying to make it read as intended. If your punctuation doesn't give the reader anything known to grasp, your rendering is a barrier, not a help.

Yes, there are writers who throw certain elements out the window and still have followers. If they otherwise are providing an engaging read and remain consistent with themselves, readers will adjust to them. Or at least some readers. There are a whole lot of readers who refuse to read someone like Joyce, for instance, just because he doesn't follow standards, and they find that too intrusive to stick with him.

 

[clistenovena]

But wouldn't it be the ultimate act of liberty – to be naked in this beautiful landscape, thousands of miles away from home?

Taking this liberty won't detract from the meaning, and only enhances the reading.

As a reader, the way the words work together to tell the story is what matters to me. I say that as the writer in me is screaming, "But you MUST follow the rules as they are!!"

 

[sr71plt]

*sigh* A hyphen is solely for combining word elements. It has no use in this context. *sigh*

(I'll bet that Legerdemer just mistyped and meant at least "dash," if not the proper "em dash." She's too smart to really believe that hyphens are used for sentence punctuation.)

 

[legerdemer]

*sigh* A hyphen is solely for combining word elements. It has no use in this context. *sigh*

(I'll bet that Legerdemer just mistyped and meant at least "dash," if not the proper "em dash." She's too smart to really believe that hyphens are used for sentence punctuation.)

Thanks, Pilot, for the compliment. Yes, I meant the em dash but I can never remember the proper term for it.

 

[SarahsHooters]

A colon wouldn't work at all, at least in American style, if you wanted it to be grammatical. Colons aren't used in this construction at all.

See the Chicago Manual of Style, 6.59 through 6.65

Yeah, I'm British. In British English a colon works perfectly.

 

[sr71plt]

Yeah, I'm British. In British English a colon works perfectly.

Citation? Other than your aunt Gertrude? Or just your opinion?

 

[ishtat]

Yeah, I'm British. In British English a colon works perfectly.

You reckon, 'cos Fowler and the Oxford references don't appear to support you. And I'm a Brit too, tho' thoroughly infected by 8 years in the USA and 20+ in Oz.

 

[SimonDoom]

Strictly speaking, what you have here is an appositive: the noun "liberty" in apposition with an infinitive phrase running from "to be naked" to the end of the sentence (this infinitive phrase functions as a noun).

The usual rule for appositives is that you set them off with commas when they're providing supplementary information--when the sentence is intelligible without them. But in informal writing (which Lit writing almost always is), you can usually substitute a dash for a comma, and sometimes a semicolon. You can even get away without any punctuation at all.

I think the phrase beginning "to be naked" is in apposition to the word "it", not the word "liberty." A comma would not work where the em dash (not hyphen) is located, because the phrase is not located next to the word to which it is apposite.

Written in a grammatically simplified way, the sentence would read something like:

But wouldn't being naked in this beautiful landscape, thousands of miles away from home, be the ultimate act of liberty?

"Being naked in this beautiful landscape" or its more awkward equivalent "to be naked in this beautiful landscape" substitutes for "it," not for "liberty."

IMO the author's version, while grammatically looser than this simplified version, probably sounds and reads better. It depends on the context. So long as the dash is an em dash, not a hyphen, it's fine the way it is.

 

[laptopwriter]

I think it reads fine just the way it is, but...

if it's that big a deal why not just restructure the sentence?

But wouldn't it be the ultimate act of liberty – to be naked in this beautiful landscape, thousands of miles away from home?

Wouldn't being naked, thousands of miles from home, be the ultimate act of liberty?

 

[SimonDoom]

if it's that big a deal why not just restructure the sentence?

But wouldn't it be the ultimate act of liberty – to be naked in this beautiful landscape, thousands of miles away from home?

Wouldn't being naked, thousands of miles from home, be the ultimate act of liberty?

Tomlitilia's version has a better sound and rhythm to it, for one, and it places the phrase he wants to emphasize at the end, where he wants it. "Act of liberty" is a general and abstract phrase. The phrase beginning "to be naked" is more specific and detailed; it gives life and color to the more general phrase and is better put at the end.

 

[CarlusMagnus]

I use em dashes a lot. I've submitted over 850 stories here with real em dashes in them and by cut and paste directly into the submissions box and have never encountered a problem with them (that I'm aware of).

The distinctions between a hyphen ("-"), an endash ("–"), and an emdash ("—"), are probably typographical distinctions, rather than grammatical ones. I use all three, as needed, in my stories (and in this note), but unlike Pilot, I use the HTML codes (see http://www.ascii.cl/htmlcodes.htm ) for the dashes, because I write in a text editor instead of in a word processor. Those codes have always worked for me.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Like the title says – is the sentence below grammatically correct?

But wouldn't it be the ultimate act of liberty – to be naked in this beautiful landscape, thousands of miles away from home?

My first instinct suggested using a colon, too.

But wouldn't it be the ultimate act of liberty: to be naked in this beautiful landscape, thousands of miles away from home?

That seems to fit the fast and dirty tip of the Grammar Girl, namely, "The most important thing to remember about colons is that you only use them after statements that are complete sentences." link to reference page

"But wouldn't it be the ultimate act of liberty?" feels like a complete sentence, therefore, a colon could work. Additionally, it fits the test of replacing the colon with the word "namely," too.

But wouldn't it be the ultimate act of liberty, namely, to be naked in this beautiful landscape, thousands of miles away from home?

While that may not be conclusive evidence that a colon may work, it feels as it could.

 

[yukonnights]

What about an ellipses? I may tend to rely too much on these to show a longer pause where reflection or a change of mind might be indicated. I did a quick look-up and found this below which seems to imply it would work:

[ source: Grammar Girl web site] Now, on to the other use of ellipses that you frequently see in e-mail: the ellipsis that’s used to indicate a pause or a break in the writer's train of thought. Many people have written to me to say that they find this kind of use annoying, but a number of style guides say that ellipses can be used to indicate a pause or falter in dialog, the passage of time, an unfinished list, or that a speaker has trailed off in the middle of a sentence or left something unsaid. For example, The Chicago Manual of Style states, “Ellipsis points suggest faltering or fragmented speech accompanied by confusion, insecurity, distress, or uncertainty.” The Manual contrasts ellipses with dashes, which it states should be reserved for more confident and decisive pauses.

But wouldn't it be the ultimate act of liberty...to be naked in this beautiful landscape, thousands of miles away from home?

This is more of a question that a suggestion. But it does seem to me that there is a pause of confusion where the speaker is trying to tie naked with liberty?

 

[SarahsHooters]

You reckon, 'cos Fowler and the Oxford references don't appear to support you. And I'm a Brit too, tho' thoroughly infected by 8 years in the USA and 20+ in Oz.

Fowler does support me, in fact.


From H.W. Fowler (1858–1933). The King’s English, 2nd ed. 1908.

Chapter IV. Punctuation

THE COLON



"IT was said in the general remarks at the beginning of this chapter that the systematic use of the colon as one of the series (,), (; ), ), (.), had died out with the decay of formal periods. Many people continue to use it, but few, if we can trust our observation, with any nice regard to its value. Some think it a prettier or more impressive stop than the semicolon, and use it instead of that; some like variety, and use the two indifferently, or resort to one when they are tired of the other. As the abandonment of periodic arrangement really makes the colon useless, it would be well (though of course any one who still writes in formal periods should retain his rights over it) if ordinary writers would give it up altogether except in the special uses, independent of its quantitative value, to which it is being more and more applied by common consent. These are (1) between two sentences that are in clear antithesis, but not connected by an adversative conjunction; (2) introducing a short quotation; (3) introducing a list; (4) introducing a sentence that comes as fulfilment of a promise expressed or implied in the previous sentence; (5) introducing an explanation or proof that is not connected with the previous sentence by for or the like. Examples are:

Man proposes: God disposes.
Always remember the ancient maxim: Know thyself.—B.
Chief rivers: Thames, Severn, Humber...
Some things we can, and others we cannot do: we can walk, but we cannot fly.—Bigelow.
Rebuke thy son in private: public rebuke hardens the heart.—B."



The example given by the OP fits number (4).

ETA: BuckyDuckman's explanation also helps clarify - thank you. The example of including then omitting "namely" means it also fits number (5).

 

[SimonDoom]

Fowler does support me, in fact.


From H.W. Fowler (1858–1933). The King’s English, 2nd ed. 1908.

Chapter IV. Punctuation

THE COLON



"IT was said in the general remarks at the beginning of this chapter that the systematic use of the colon as one of the series (,), (; ), ), (.), had died out with the decay of formal periods. Many people continue to use it, but few, if we can trust our observation, with any nice regard to its value. Some think it a prettier or more impressive stop than the semicolon, and use it instead of that; some like variety, and use the two indifferently, or resort to one when they are tired of the other. As the abandonment of periodic arrangement really makes the colon useless, it would be well (though of course any one who still writes in formal periods should retain his rights over it) if ordinary writers would give it up altogether except in the special uses, independent of its quantitative value, to which it is being more and more applied by common consent. These are (1) between two sentences that are in clear antithesis, but not connected by an adversative conjunction; (2) introducing a short quotation; (3) introducing a list; (4) introducing a sentence that comes as fulfilment of a promise expressed or implied in the previous sentence; (5) introducing an explanation or proof that is not connected with the previous sentence by for or the like. Examples are:

Man proposes: God disposes.
Always remember the ancient maxim: Know thyself.—B.
Chief rivers: Thames, Severn, Humber...
Some things we can, and others we cannot do: we can walk, but we cannot fly.—Bigelow.
Rebuke thy son in private: public rebuke hardens the heart.—B."



The example given by the OP fits number (4).

ETA: BuckyDuckman's explanation also helps clarify - thank you. The example of including then omitting "namely" means it also fits number (5).

I don't think no. 4 applies, because the colon does not precede a sentence; it precedes an infinitive phrase. The portion of the OP's sentence that starts with "to be naked . . . " is not a sentence.

And I'm not sure about no. 5. The problem with "namely" is that the phrase beginning with "to be naked" does not rename or describe "liberty"; it renames "it."

 

[Handley_Page]

Am I really alone in getting confused and blinded by the "technical terms" in describing English ?
I didn't do the 'techie stuff' when I was at school; I got lost in conjunctions and subordinate clauses. Ye gods I had enough trouble with parts of speech !

I always thought that a semi-colon was merely a 'pause' in the spoken flow of the words.

[OK, I'll put my wellies on and go play in the puddles]


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