is there such a thing, as a female libertine?

[cynter]

from don juan to de sade

been doing some googling and keep coming up with male libertines. at this point unsure if this superficial research is for story development or personal enlightenment but would appreciate ya'll's input regarding the concept of woman as libertine. if you would be so kind to point out references or links, i'd appreciate it.
thanks!
:kiss

 

[CharleyH]

from don juan to de sade

been doing some googling and keep coming up with male libertines. at this point unsure if this superficial research is for story development or personal enlightenment but would appreciate ya'll's input regarding the concept of woman as libertine. if you would be so kind to point out references or links, i'd appreciate it.
thanks!
:kiss

thought de Sade had a couple of them? Hm.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Mae West comes to mind. Maybe Texas Guinan.

---dr.M.

 

[cynter]

thank you.....

Mae West comes to mind. Maybe Texas Guinan.

---dr.M.

of course, Mae West. i'll have to check out Texas Guinan....never heard of her.
thank you!

 

[Black Tulip]

Not really sure, but Georges Sand maybe?
Simone de Beauvoir?

Just thinking out loud.

 

[Guest]

Libertine females have been known and written about since the ancient Greeks and biblical times. Aristocratic women in ancient Greece could lead libertine lives, including an emporer’s wife or daughter: Messalina (married to Claudius), Julia Livilla (daughter of Augustus). In the Bible we find Jezebel and Delilah. Cleopatra is an especially famous libertine.

Libertine women became prominent in the Enlightenment (particularly in France) and the Restoration periods. Often these women were accepted for their intelligence besides beauty and charm, as were the famed courtesans of Venice. Mary Wollstonecraft was considered a libertine for her lifestyle (free love) and writings (“A Vindication on the Rights of Women”). George Sand led a libertine life, as did her friend the countess Marie d'Agoult (Franz Liszt’s mistress, their daughter became Cosima Wagner).

In modern/contemporary times I think we’ve had many moviestars who were considered libertine (sex goddesses, symbols, kittens, etc.), and perhaps most recently Madonna epitomizes the female libertine.

All in all a female libertine merely means a woman who enjoys and seeks sexual pleasure like a man (or like society believes a man should).

libertinely, Perdita

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Perdita, you always have such information that is so wonderful. Feeling better love? Hope so,

 

[Guest]

Abby, you're sweet. All that stuff above comes from my feminist interests; we women have such a marvelous history.

Yes, I'm better today. The chills and bone aches are gone but the coughing gives me headaches, literal aching of my skull. Aspiran helps, thanks for asking. P.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Abby, you're sweet. All that stuff above comes from my feminist interests; we women have such a marvelous history.

Yes, I'm better today. The chills and bone aches are gone but the coughing gives me headaches, literal aching of my skull. Aspiran helps, thanks for asking. P.

I have to agree about the history part, it seems there are more and more facts coming out about famous women dispelling a lot of myth.

Glad to hear you somewhat up and about, have a cigarette for that cough.

 

[cynter]

thank you!

Libertine females have been known and written about since the ancient Greeks and biblical times. Aristocratic women in ancient Greece could lead libertine lives, including an emporer’s wife or daughter: Messalina (married to Claudius), Julia Livilla (daughter of Augustus). In the Bible we find Jezebel and Delilah. Cleopatra is an especially famous libertine.

Libertine women became prominent in the Enlightenment (particularly in France) and the Restoration periods. Often these women were accepted for their intelligence besides beauty and charm, as were the famed courtesans of Venice. Mary Wollstonecraft was considered a libertine for her lifestyle (free love) and writings (“A Vindication on the Rights of Women”). George Sand led a libertine life, as did her friend the countess Marie d'Agoult (Franz Liszt’s mistress, their daughter became Cosima Wagner).

In modern/contemporary times I think we’ve had many moviestars who were considered libertine (sex goddesses, symbols, kittens, etc.), and perhaps most recently Madonna epitomizes the female libertine.

All in all a female libertine merely means a woman who enjoys and seeks sexual pleasure like a man (or like society believes a man should).

libertinely, Perdita

seems to be a crisscross with feminism also.

sometimes i think we've lost sight of how far women have come in such a short period of time.

this whole concept has some historical and possibly writing fodder revelance but more personal revelance.....the more i read.

just really like the idea of defining my life and sexual pursuits by my own terms...irrespective of cultural gender bias or social expectations.

so in my own way...i am a libertine.

thank you perdita, for your as always thoughtful and thought provoking input.

and many thanks to all who've taken the time to respond.

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

Madam de la Pompadour was the consummate Libertinette.

She was the mistress of King Louis, and one of the most powerful, portraited, and profligate women in France.

mlle

 

[cynter]

thank you

Madam de la Pompadour was the consummate Libertinette.

She was the mistress of King Louis, and one of the most powerful, portraited, and profligate women in France.

mlle

but of course, thank you. btw...love charmingly carnal.

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

I thought I recognized you, *laugh*

Hey, I read some of your stuff. I'm about to go all contemporary in the next few days...send me something.

mlle

 

[R. Richard]

You want female libertine? Try Lola Montez.

Irish born adventuress, whose original name was Marie Dolores Eliza Rosanna Gilbert. She married an army officer, but soon divorced. She adopted the name Lola Montez and claimed Spanish descent. She became a 'Spanish dancer.' Her dancing was poor, but her beauty, extravagant charms, and adventures (in particular her affairs with Franz Liszt and Dumas pere) were legendary. She became the mistress of the King of Spain (nearly toppling the Spanish monarchy) and then the mistress of King Louis I of Bavaria (who made her countess of Lansfeld). Her intervention in politics aroused antagonism and helped provoke the Revolution of 1848. She was banished from Europe and returned to England. In 1851 she toured the United States and married a newspaperman in San Francisco. She set up housekeeping in the bay area and employed a staff of large, male Hawaiians. She then got religion and died in extreme poverty in New York City.

The main problem that Lola Montez had was that she could not live on any fixed amount of money. The more she got, the more she spent. Later in life she found it harder to get men to finance her extravagent ways.

 

[cynter]

wunnerful!

I thought I recognized you, *laugh*

Hey, I read some of your stuff. I'm about to go all contemporary in the next few days...send me something.

mlle

alrighty! that would be cool, but gotta wait till school ...uh..starts. is it august 9th yet? my darling princess is making mommie crazy! but yes, definitely will submit something....its so cool ya'll are going contemp!


we now resume the original thread intent....

 

[cynter]

thank you!

You want female libertine? Try Lola Montez.

Irish born adventuress, whose original name was Marie Dolores Eliza Rosanna Gilbert. She married an army officer, but soon divorced. She adopted the name Lola Montez and claimed Spanish descent. She became a 'Spanish dancer.' Her dancing was poor, but her beauty, extravagant charms, and adventures (in particular her affairs with Franz Liszt and Dumas pere) were legendary. She became the mistress of the King of Spain (nearly toppling the Spanish monarchy) and then the mistress of King Louis I of Bavaria (who made her countess of Lansfeld). Her intervention in politics aroused antagonism and helped provoke the Revolution of 1848. She was banished from Europe and returned to England. In 1851 she toured the United States and married a newspaperman in San Francisco. She set up housekeeping in the bay area and employed a staff of large, male Hawaiians. She then got religion and died in extreme poverty in New York City.

The main problem that Lola Montez had was that she could not live on any fixed amount of money. The more she got, the more she spent. Later in life she found it harder to get men to finance her extravagent ways.

another one! alright!
have no idea where i'm going with all this but the stuff is starting to accumulate....hhmm...gotta be something to write about in there somewhere....hhmm.
THANK YA'LL!

 

[herecomestherain]

I read about Violet Gordon Woodhouse in Betsy Prioleau's "Seductress, Women Who Ravished The World and Their Lost Art of Love"

An accomplished musician with an unconventional family...

http://partners.nytimes.com/books/97/12/21/reviews/971221.21goreaut.html


BTW "Seductress" is full of fascinating women, many of whom could be considered libertine.

 

[cynter]

thank you!

I read about Violet Gordon Woodhouse in Betsy Prioleau's "Seductress, Women Who Ravished The World and Their Lost Art of Love"

An accomplished musician with an unconventional family...

http://partners.nytimes.com/books/97/12/21/reviews/971221.21goreaut.html


BTW "Seductress" is full of fascinating women, many of whom could be considered libertine.

wow! what a cool lady and sounds like an excellent read.

 

[cynter]

FYI

http://cynter56.diary-x.com/journal.cgi?entry=l2 (filled with lit refs)

http://cynter56.diary-x.com/journal.cgi?entry=lll (ongoing collection of stuff re: libertinism)

so this is not for naught....whether own enlightenment or writing fodder not sure.

still THANK YOU LIT'ERS!

 

[Pure]

Hi Cynter,

There have been a lot of names mentioned, good ones. In my opinion, I would not class Beauvoir as libertine, except possibly in theory.

{{Added: I don't recall, from her bio, more than a half dozen lovers at most, notably Algren. Perhaps those naming her are thinking of her 'free' and 'open' relationship with Sartre. What has to be added, however, is that, as is not unusual, the 'openness' of the relationship means something different to the male: Sartre had dozens (if not more) of lovers.

It was up to Beauvoir to accommodate to this, which was more difficult in practice than in her ideas of 'freedom' and non-bourgeois relationships. She was treated rather badly, by Sartre, towards the end, one might even say was 'rejected' in favor of a young lover he adopted as a daughter. 'Freedom' often has different consequences for a woman.}}

Here are some names I did not see, above.

Catherine the Great of Russia. (voracious sexual appetite)
The 'salon' ladies of France, like Ninon de L'Enclos.

In the States, Victoria Woodhull was quite a political activist and 'free love' practicer for the first part of her life. There is also a famous American lady, Frances Wright, who started a 'free love' colony in the US in the 19th century, .

http://womhist.binghamton.edu/awrm/doc3.htm

http://www.h-net.org/~women/papers/freeloveintro.html


Of course, among the lefties and anarchists, there are some free spirits, in sexual terms, like Emma Goldman, and Frida Kahlo, the Mexican artist.

As other posters have said, several movie actresses and stage actresses over the years have gotten reputations, some of them accurate. One thinks of the dancer Isadora Duncan and her famous line to another woman at a social gathering, "Do you mind if I borrow your husband?"

The Black actress/dancer, Josephine Baker, was certainly a free spirit in sexuality.

The French libertine woman, the art critic, Catherine Millet published a book a couple years ago about the thousand men she'd fucked. (The Sexual Life of Catherine M)


----

In fiction, the arch libertine of Sade is Juliette, in the book of that name. Also, there is the essay "The Sadeian Woman" by Angela Carter, on the issue of Sade and women figures.

Equally notable is the figure of Madame de Meurteuil in Choderclos de Laclos' _Dangerous Liaisons_ who articulates her philosophy.
Besides the movie of this book, with Glenn Close, there is the modern 'rewrite' in the movie 'Cruel Intentions', with an 18 year old libertine young woman, iirc.

I don't have time to look up links on all these, but would help if there's someone you're particularly interested in.

Some of those above, like Woodhull or Goldman definitely sound 'feminist'; others do not, but are certainly 'free spirits' and 'strong women' who may serve as examples.

 

[Guest]

a clarification.

Catherine the Great (Ekaterina II) had a "normal" libido; if she had been a male emporer no one would have given a second thought to her sexual history. She did not fuck a horse either.

As a girl Catherine married a mentally and physically ill-equipped boy who could not consummate their marriage. The boy's mother (Elizabeth I) arranged for the girl to get pregnant by a military officer to ensure the dynasty (the Romanovs). Catherine, with the support of her court, deposed her husband and became Empress of "all the Russias", continuing the growth and prosperity Peter the Great had begun. Among many educated foreigners, Voltaire was a personal correspondent. She brought the Enlightenment to Russia and the beginnings of all that we think of Russian culture today can be traced to her.

I post this because Catherine the Great is someone I've long studied and admired as a woman of history who changed her world (however despotic it might read). The French, whose nemesis was Russia at the time, are to blame for the inflated rumours about her sex life which apparently still abound to tittilate.

Perdita

 

[Pure]

Further clarification

Of course it's true that many a woman labeled or self-labeled as 'libertine' will have a sexual life that would not cause a 'second thought' were it true of a man (male peer), esp. in more repressive periods. The man may be known to fuck everything in sight and merely receive polite admiration and no distinctive label, when his partners number less than one thousand.

Further, such a 'libertine' woman's life may not compare with the exploits of later women, esp. in freer periods and countries, e.g., US, 1960 to present.

It's also not part of the discussion thus far whether a female libertine is 'normal.' One may simply say she is likely 'unusual' in the context of most societies. Perhaps admirable as strong and rebellious, esp. if she survives the condemnations strictures of society for very long.

One website and source mentioning the sexuality of Catherine and applying the adjective 'voracious' is listed below. It seeks to debunk a number of myths, esp. as related to a horse.

http://europeanhistory.about.com/od/catherinethegreat/a/histmyths1.htm

[Robert Wilde]


So if Catherine didn't die while attempting sex with a horse (and just to reiterate, she absolutely, 100% didn't), how did the myth arise? During past centuries the easiest way for people to offend and verbally attack their female enemies was sex.
Marie Antoinette, the hated queen of France, was subjected to printed myths so deviant and obscene they would make spam emailers blush and certainly can't be reproduced here.

Catherine the Great was always going to attract rumours about her sex life, but her voracious sexual appetite – while modest by modern standards - meant that the rumours had to be even wilder. Historians believe the horse myth originated in France, among the French upper classes, soon after Catherine's death as a way to mar her legend.

 

[cynter]

this is just too cool!

i'd always considered that horse bit to be a bit too much..LOL. but putting things into the context of the times and in the context of exacting political revenge....sheds a whole different light on things to be sure. thank you for insights!

 

[Pure]

Lou Salomé belongs on the list, herself a writer and analyst, colleague of Freud, lover of Rilke.

One may want to add Flora Tristan (1803 - 1844) to the list, though I don't know the details of her sexual life. She was at any rate, remarkable.

A discussion of her account of her travels to Peru:

pdf

http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/available/etd-04062004-144800/unrestricted/09_jal_chapter2.pdf

html

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cach...chapter2.pdf+Flora+Tristan+sex&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

see also
http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cach...hasqui.pdf+flora+tristan+lover&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

 

[Guest]

I don't need to look at websites on Catherine II, I have excellent biographies of her and of tsarist Russian history and culture. The word voracious simply does not apply. What is a voracious sexual appetite? Some might say I have one, I might think mine average compared to others.

I think this discussion has gone a bit off. Merely having more than a few lovers does not make a woman a libertine. I would never regard Frida Kahlo or Lou Salome as libertine (and I don't need the web to know about them either).

Perdita