Is The Pope Dead Yet?

[ishtat]

Legacy

I have seen the death of 5 Popes. The one consistent observation is that once death occurs the public memory tends to fade fast, very fast. There is a common Roman saying which roughly translated is, "There is always another Pope" ie. It is the institution, not the particular man which counts.

Whether a Pope is good, bad or ineffectual can hardly be judged in the current emotionally charged atmosphere. I suspect that this Pope will be judged not by his own work but by that of his successors. His longevity, and the fact that he has appointed 98% of the College of Cardinals is his legacy. They are the most conservative college since the Reformation. Media Gloss cannot obscure arch conservatism indefinitely.

They will bury him but much more importantly will they bury Vatican 2 and the ideas of John 23rd?

I hope I am wrong.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

"Oh, yes, of course he is dying. We can respect that. Even though [insert religious grudge, political jab, etc.]"

Rude. Him dying isn't about Catholicism or your whining. Have some respect for, yes, a good man. A pious man. A very warm humanitarian who believed in people very much.

 

[cantdog]

"Rude" is just a code word for "what you dislike."

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

"Rude" is just a code word for "what you dislike."

You are incorrect.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Wish no man death less you wish it wished of you.

for the frightened fading be they pope or pauper.

And always apologies for my possibly asinine alliteration.

 

[scheherazade_79]

I agree with a lot of the comments made here about the Pope being a good man,
I actually got a bit upset when I watched the news on TV - despite disagreeing with a lot of Vatican policies and not being remotely religious. I've watched someone close to me fade away in the final hours, and it chokes you up when you start wondering what's going through their minds, whether or not they know they're dying, if they're scared etc. etc.

I hope the media show some respect, although I have my doubts. They seem to be circling at the moment like vultures.

 

[Kassiana]

The Pope is a good man ... his stance on women's rights not withstanding, ahem.

And the free press, and gay rights, and rightful criticism of molesting priests and the church that covers up for them, and so on.

He may be a good man despite all that, but I find it hard to believe given the above.

Don't get me wrong, I don't wish him dead, as I've seen a few atheists do on the atheist majority site I frequent (and to be fair, most of them have condemned their fellows for doing so), but I tend to think someone must be judged by her/his actions and the effects those actions have.

Blaming homosexuals and the free press in the United States, for example, for the Catholic Church's policy of covering up for child molesting cowardly clergy is not the action of a "good" man in my view.

On the other hand, I don't think he's an evil man, either. I won't condemn those who mourn for him, but I won't mourn myself. May he pass quickly and without pain. May his successor do more good and less bad than he did. Much more good and much less bad.

 

[Liar]

He's the head of the Roman Catholic church. And he's...what...80? 90? Tell me, how many ancient clergymen do we know of that are epitome reformists and revolutionary liberal in that sphere? Granted, he has made a few mistakes. But he's been in office for so long that mistakes are almost inevitable. All things considered, there have been positive actions, especially in the past. The guy got old, and like many people, he fell back on what he'd once been taught. I think the Catholics could had done better. But more likely much worse.

I'll bet though, when all is said and done, that he will be most famous for his canonisation spree. How many was that now again?

 

[carsonshepherd]

And the free press, and gay rights, and rightful criticism of molesting priests and the church that covers up for them, and so on.

He may be a good man despite all that, but I find it hard to believe given the above.

Don't get me wrong, I don't wish him dead, as I've seen a few atheists do on the atheist majority site I frequent (and to be fair, most of them have condemned their fellows for doing so), but I tend to think someone must be judged by her/his actions and the effects those actions have.

Blaming homosexuals and the free press in the United States, for example, for the Catholic Church's policy of covering up for child molesting cowardly clergy is not the action of a "good" man in my view.

On the other hand, I don't think he's an evil man, either. I won't condemn those who mourn for him, but I won't mourn myself. May he pass quickly and without pain. May his successor do more good and less bad than he did. Much more good and much less bad.

John Paul the man is different from John Paul the Pope, as well. He was a man, just like we are. But he also was more or less a figurehead (yes, I am oversimplifying) for the massive unwieldy machine that is the Catholic Church. One man could not change the ENTIRE face of Catholicism, there's too much beauracracy. Was his power unlimited? I don't know, but I imagine not.

I'm not Catholic. But we can mourn a force for peace, which he was, while not blaming him personally for every sin of a massive organization. He is one man, in the end.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

It's curious to notice how it's generally the atheists and non-Catholics in general that oppose the Pope and the Vatican's official stances more vividly and passionately, instead of the Catholics themselves. Sort of like the Red States' folks rallying against gay married terrorists...

 

[carsonshepherd]

It's curious to notice how it's generally the atheists and non-Catholics in general that oppose the Pope and the Vatican's official stances more vividly and passionately, instead of the Catholics themselves. Sort of like the Red States' folks rallying against gay married terrorists...

Very good point Lauren and very similar. Just gives is someone to focus our opposition on, do you think?

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

Why do I feel that concerning myself acrimoniously about the approaching death of someone for whom I may have little true regard, is somewhat akin to kicking a person while they are down?

Alternately, why does arguing with said acrimonious persons feel, as I imagine it would to the man in question himself, like a movement of descent?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Very good point Lauren and very similar. Just gives is someone to focus our opposition on, do you think?

I have no idea. I just always found it odd, the way the Roman Catholic Church is perceived by non-Catholics (in the US, mostly) - a retrograde, medieval institution, anti-women, anti-gay, anti-youth and anti-free-choice - as opposed to the way I (a young, gay, very liberal young Catholic woman) do.

 

[impressive]

I have no idea. I just always found it odd, the way the Roman Catholic Church is perceived by non-Catholics (in the US, mostly) - a retrograde, medieval institution, anti-women, anti-gay, anti-youth and anti-free-choice - as opposed to the way I (a young, gay, very liberal young Catholic woman) do.

I was born/raised Catholic ... and as a bi, very liberal, no-longer-young, recovering Catholic, I can say I pretty much loathe it.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I was born/raised Catholic ... and as a bi, very liberal, no-longer-young, recovering Catholic, I can say I pretty much loathe it.

I can respect that. The way the Church is perceived in the US and the way it is perceived elsewhere, though, is quite different. As happens with the only two significant political parties, all positions are polarised and extremed. Don't you think that loathing could result more from the way specific affairs have been dealt with locally than from the RCC itself?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Pope John Paul II died 20 minutes ago.

 

[impressive]

Don't you think that loathing could result more from the way specific affairs have been dealt with locally than from the RCC itself?

It's both, for me -- more so the overall tenets than local management. At the local level, in my experience, many churches of varied denominations do all kinds of good works. Some actually practice true tolerance and acceptance in spite of their tenets.

 

[minsue]

 

[Wildcard Ky]

AP is reporting that the Pope died at 2:37 p.m. est.

I hope he's standing in front of God right now. I hope that God is asking him why him and his organization allowed so many child abusing priests to continue to do their evil deeds. I hope God is asking him why they covered for these priests.

I hope he has a good answer for God.

 

[impressive]

RIP, JPII

 

[Samandiriel]

~ ~ ciao.

 

[angela146]

He's the head of the Roman Catholic church. And he's...what...80? 90? Tell me, how many ancient clergymen do we know of that are epitome reformists and revolutionary liberal in that sphere? Granted, he has made a few mistakes. But he's been in office for so long that mistakes are almost inevitable. All things considered, there have been positive actions, especially in the past. The guy got old, and like many people, he fell back on what he'd once been taught. I think the Catholics could had done better. But more likely much worse.

Uh, he wasn't all that old when he took the throne (58 I believe). Most of his truely offensive policies (celebacy, role of women, sexual morality etc.) were stated most strongly in his early years.

Besides which, you don't get to be the pope when you are a young man (with a few notable exceptions).

 

[angela146]

...But he also was more or less a figurehead (yes, I am oversimplifying) for the massive unwieldy machine that is the Catholic Church. One man could not change the ENTIRE face of Catholicism, there's too much beauracracy. Was his power unlimited? I don't know, but I imagine not.

This particular pope was not a puppet of the curia.

Perhaps he would not have been able to reform the church if he had tried to, but he didn't *try* to write the wrongs. In fact, he left the church *more* wrong than when he found it.

Besides that, he is responsible for the policies that carry his signature and seal.

I'm not Catholic. But we can mourn a force for peace, which he was, while not blaming him personally for every sin of a massive organization.

He was a force for peace. Without him, the Soviet Union would have lasted a lot longer and done a lot more damage.

Besides that, it isn't the individual sins of a massive organization (i.e. the priest sex scandal) that are his legacy. It is his failure to remove the root causes of those sins (priest celebacy and the laws of chastity).

...He is one man, in the end.

Yes. I agree. One man. But a very, very powerful and influential pope by historical standards... and that is *really* saying something.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

post deleted

 

[minsue]

The spiritual leader of tens of millions of people has just died. Please, out of respect for them, can't we wait a day before we go back to fighting over him?