Is one of us writing into Slate about this hobby?

[Trionyx]

An interesting letter in the "How to Do It" section of Slate.
https://slate.com/human-interest/2023/10/secret-erotic-hobby-sex-advice.html
Do you agree with her response to Secret Author?

 

[joy_of_cooking]

I feel like the advice was mostly directed at (and maybe misunderstanding) the last bit about comment section role play.

I think it would be pretty mainstream to insist that your wife not sext with other people. It seems much less mainstream to insist she not write about fiction, even if it's erotic fiction.

I'm saying mainstream here to acknowledge that people can write their own rules.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think this is a tricky one. I believe one should be honest with one's partner about important things, and I don't believe in having secret affairs or the equivalent.

But the question is, what's the equivalent? People have very different feelings about this. Some people might think it's the equivalent of cheating if you go online to look at pornography without their knowledge. I personally think if you are sexually role-playing with other people without your partner's consent, it's close to cheating. Some might have different ideas about that.

Ideally, two partners should work out their understanding about these things from the beginning, to avoid misunderstanding. But it often doesn't work out that way. My ex and I didn't talk about any of this stuff before we got married.

I think it's perfectly OK for partners not to share everything. I think one has no moral duty to let one's partner know that one reads and writes erotic stories. But role-playing with another person, IMO, crosses the line.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Hrmm.

I'd agree with the "if you're feeling guilty about it, then there's a problem" part of the advice. That kind of thing has a way of damaging a relationship. I'm less sold on her reading that the letter-writer is feeling guilty about it. It's not an unreasonable speculation but I think it goes a little beyond what the letter said. (Although, noting that these kinds of letters are often edited down for publication; there might've been something in the original that made this clearer.)

Beyond that, it comes down to the age-old question of "is it okay to lie to somebody for the sake of their feelings?" (often with an unacknowledged dose of "and my feelings too"). Personally - as somebody whose partner was in a similar situation, and did come clean with me - I appreciated being told, because it gave us the opportunity to talk through our issues and work towards a better relationship. I had already picked up that something was off, and if they hadn't told me what the deal was, it'd have nagged at me forever.

 

[oneagainst]

Hmm. I have had some very honest and enlightening conversations here, which would not go down well if revealed. But, to Simon's point, I'm happy with the line that's drawn. I'm not looking for anything beyond expanding my knowledge, so keeping it on the quiet, I can live with that.

To Tilan_'s point (god, you look familiar) the moment it's even flirting, it's maybe time for that talk.

 

[samhasstories]

Interesting read. I've thought about this a fair amount, since writing erotica isn't something I share with my spouse. And, honestly, I don't want to, at least not the type I've written so far - I don't think she'd connect with it, and if I knew she was potentially going to read it I think I'd be more self-conscious about how I wrote it. Which would kind of defeat the whole purpose. I enjoy this as my own outlet, a way for me to explore my fantasies that don't involve my wife.

On the other hand, I think it does change things when you start to connect with other people in a sexually gratifying way, i.e. with the roleplaying. It feels odd in the slate post that the roleplaying is mentioned as almost an afterthought, as if they were trying to sneak that in there. That, to me, takes it from a personal outlet that might actually be good for you into a question of what constitutes cheating. I would be curious to see what the advice would be if that little nugget wasn't in there.

 

[Altissimus]

Sounds very fake to me. "A little bit of comment section role-play has made me feel like this is adjacent to cheating"? Puh-leese. Also, "...would feel inadequate and like he can’t meet my needs sexually (which is uncomfortably close to the truth)" - don't buy such a writer-in would include such a line; doesn't fit the character.

I think it's sensationalism.

If one takes the letter at face-value (or, perhaps generously, suggests it's snippets of others thrown together into one), then I think the response is bullshit, frankly.

Oh gosh no dear, you can't hope to have a hobby as an independent person! What on earth would your husband think? Why don't you toddle on back into the kitchen and find fulfilment mopping the floor.
But... but... it "makes me feel much more satisfied in our marriage."
Doesn't matter dear. Think about all that guilt!

Yeah. Next.

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

How does she know he's not writing kinky erotica in secret too?
Do I hear the piña colada song playing somewhere?
I hope they find each other's erotica stories and realize they want to try the same kinky shit.

 

[alohadave]

Do I hear the piña colada song playing somewhere?

What an awful song. A couple on the rocks have a funny connection and deciding that after (I assume) years together that they really didn't know anything about each other and what they like.

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

What an awful song. A couple on the rocks have a funny connection and deciding that after (I assume) years together that they really didn't know anything about each other and what they like.

Hence the connection with the slate letter.

 

[Gamblnluck]

But the question is, what's the equivalent? People have very different feelings about this. Some people might think it's the equivalent of cheating if you go online to look at pornography without their knowledge. I personally think if you are sexually role-playing with other people without your partner's consent, it's close to cheating. Some might have different ideas about that.

I tend to agree with you. My wife hated me 'looking at porn' when we got married. She felt it took away from her.
She once asked what I was doing on the computer and I told writing a porn story. She snorted and said, "Yeah, right." One of these days I'm gonna send her one of my stories and ask her what she thinks.

When we go on road trips we listen to recorded books. I'll often point out plot holes or how I see things developing. Occasionally, I'll point out a big plot hole. I think writing makes me a more critical reader.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I tend to believe that letter to Slate was a contrived piece. Written and answered by the same person to get a reaction and fill space.
Yesterday I saw one of those 'pop-up' stories when reading facebook about a little girl who always takes her pit bull for walks. One day the dog comes home without the girl. He has a shoe in his mouth and it turns outhe swallowed the other one. Everyone is frantic. It goes on and on like a 20/20 episode where it repeats, goes off on tangents etc. How they take the dog to the vet. Nobody can find the girl, but they hope the dog can lead them to right spot etc.
Finally, in a very rushed ending where it seem a few paragraphs were missing, it seems the girl fell into a trench or 'ravine' and the dog tried to pull her out by her feet. In his enthusiasm it swallowed the shoe. They find and save the girl a day or so after she goes missing. Then at the end it says the pictures show were just to illustrate the story and not the dog or the girl. And the whole story was written by the author as something that COULD happen. Needless to say, I was pissed thinking this was one of those strange but true stories.
Yeah, I know, serves me right for reading something that pops up in facebook.

 

[CyranoJ]

An interesting letter in the "How to Do It" section of Slate.
https://slate.com/human-interest/2023/10/secret-erotic-hobby-sex-advice.html
Do you agree with her response to Secret Author?

No.

I won't engage in speculation about whether the letter is 'real.' Assuming it is: calling things 'adjacent to cheating' is a slippery slope. Only cheating, the actual physical act of fucking someone other than your partner, is cheating. Nothing else comes close to it and it's very unwise to allow that kind of scope creep in language or thinking about a relationship. It can be used to police almost anything you do.

(Do you have a male friend you like talking to about birdwatching? "Adjacent to cheating." Do you have a girlfriend you seem just a little too close with? "Adjacent to cheating." Do you like romance novels that happen to have steamy sex scenes in? "Adjacent to cheating." And so on.)

If it's really "uncomfortably close to the truth" that her hubby isn't sexually adequate, that admittedly is a bad sign. Writing erotica ought not to be replacing something that is just lacking in IRL relationships. So, that sounds like a separate problem all its own. Maybe they need to spice their sex life up or go to therapy.

With all of that said, the projection of guilt onto the letter's author is a step too far, too fast, and frankly I don't think it's a hobby that needs to be shared with everyone. After spending years on Literotica explaining how kinks work and what they do and don't signify to people who should actually be in a position to understand but somehow can't fucking manage it, I wouldn't relish going through that routine with IRL family and friends and it's not a secret that's constantly fighting to burst forth from me. It's okay for them to just have a hobby that their partner isn't involved with and doesn't know about.

 

[MrPixel]

"But I had lust in my heart."

 

[TadOverdon]

Secondly, he’s bound to find out eventually and that’s usually a much worse scenario than being told directly. Whether it’s a file on your laptop or a slip of the tongue, you’re unlikely to keep a secret like this from your partner forever.

This bit seems oddly naive. The range of things that people choose to keep from their partners is staggering. "Bound to find out" applies in drama.

On the other hand, "Don't do it because you feel guilty" cuts to the heart of the situation, doesn't it?

 

[lovecraft68]

I tend to believe that letter to Slate was a contrived piece.

Absolutely, and by a guy. It reeks of the typical a woman should be locked in a stable any time her 'man' isn't around.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

Which one of yall sent that letter in? I always found it funny, those types that are so paranoid of ruining a relationship. I do agree with the cybersex thing, certain emotional connections are adjacent to cheating... whether CyranoJ believes it or not, but writing erotica- nah. I don't hide that I write it, I'm not scared for people to know or see. I did have a thought that there are probably things I've written I might be worried I'd be judged on- this may be me giving too much credit to humans, but I expect them not to see what I write as some direct piece of myself. Of course I'm a quick one to say "fuck you", because I don't abide people who wanna judge me for things that [I deem] are trivial.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I won't engage in speculation about whether the letter is 'real.'

In general I think arguing over whether these things are "fake" is largely irrelevant. The point of advice columns is less for the one person who wrote the letter (who, if they even exist, might already have moved on by the time it actually gets answered) and more for other people reading it who might be in similar situations.

In this specific case, though, the columnist is a very well-known porn actress. It's hard to imagine that there would be so few people writing in to Stoya that she'd need to make up letters for herself to answer, and if the writer was going to make it up... I feel sad for them, because if it's a fake, it's a pretty bland one.

Assuming it is: calling things 'adjacent to cheating' is a slippery slope. Only cheating, the actual physical act of fucking someone other than your partner, is cheating.

"Only cheating is cheating" is a tautology: true but not useful.

Beyond that, I don't think there's ever been a good consensus that the line is drawn exactly at "the actual physical act of fucking someone other than your partner". It's not a fringe position to consider an illicit blowjob or handjob or tongue-kiss as some kind of "cheating", and a lot of people would be devastated to find their partner had done those things with somebody else even if no penis had actually physically entered a vagina.

(And some wouldn't. And some would be fine with physical stuff but not with an "I love you".)

For me, it comes down to: "cheating" is breaking the mutually-accepted rules of the relationship, but because most people don't talk through that stuff nearly as much as they might and just go with some kind of nebulously-defined cultural standard, there's a huge amount of room for misunderstanding about what rules actually have been mutually accepted.

Nothing else comes close to it and it's very unwise to allow that kind of scope creep in language or thinking about a relationship. It can be used to police almost anything you do. (Do you have a male friend you like talking to about birdwatching? "Adjacent to cheating." Do you have a girlfriend you seem just a little too close with? "Adjacent to cheating." Do you like romance novels that happen to have steamy sex scenes in? "Adjacent to cheating." And so on.)

This can be a real problem. But the person who does that isn't going to stop doing it just because Stoya, or the AH gestalt, decide to adhere to a strict and narrow definition of "cheating".

I've been in and/or witnessed several poly relationships where one of the people involved was a controlling asshole of that variety. They didn't have the language of "cheating" available to them as a control tactic, because they'd agreed to a poly relationship; in most of those cases they were the ones who'd suggested poly to their partners in the first place. I can assure you that it didn't slow them down at all. They found plenty of other ways to sabotage their partners' other relationships.

The problem there is not "definition of 'cheating'" but "in relationship with a controlling asshole", and the solution there is in getting out of that relationship.

 

[SimonDoom]

Only cheating, the actual physical act of fucking someone other than your partner, is cheating. Nothing else comes close to it and it's very unwise to allow that kind of scope creep in language or thinking about a relationship. It can be used to police almost anything you do.

(I'm going to assume the letter is real for the sake of this thread because the subject is interesting, but I agree it's suspicious)

I don't agree with this. If my wife were having sexting and phone sex sessions with my best friend without my knowledge, I would regard that as cheating. I would feel betrayed by that, in much the same way I would if I found out that my wife was having actual, physical sex with my best friend.

The most important aspect of "cheating," IMO, is the dishonesty. As far as I'm concerned, two (or more) adult people can agree on whatever sexual terms they want to between themselves. They can decide on nonsexual terms, too. With many couples, for example, the partners have agreed there should be limits on the degree of nonsexual contact between one partner and members of the opposite sex. A breach of that understanding, whatever the understanding is, and whatever the activity concerned, could be regarded as cheating.

The problem arises when there's no explicit agreement, but one partner knows that the other partner has different, and more restrictive, ideas of what's appropriate. I was in such a relationship for a long time; I'm not any longer. I'm very sexually tolerant, as long as everyone is honest. It's the honesty and loyalty that's the key.

If you are doing something behind your partner's back, and according to your ethics it's OK, but you know or suspect that it would NOT be OK to your partner and that your partner would be hurt or disturbed by it if they knew, then you're in a tricky situation that may require tough judgment calls. Generally, I think one should be honest. But there might be situations where one believes one's partner's attitude is excessive, and it's better off if they don't know. For example, there are authors here who write stories for Literotica without their partners knowing. I personally see nothing wrong with that, although if you know that you are doing something that might hurt or disturb your partner then it might--might--indicate that there's a deeper problem in the relationship that should be addressed. But as I said, that's a tough judgment call.

 

[alohadave]

For me, it comes down to: "cheating" is breaking the mutually-accepted rules of the relationship, but because most people don't talk through that stuff nearly as much as they might and just go with some kind of nebulously-defined cultural standard, there's a huge amount of room for misunderstanding about what rules actually have been mutually accepted.

Nail. Head.

It's always going to come down to what the members of the relationship and what the line is for them.

Some people consider watching porn as cheating. Others might not care about physical sex as long as they are involved with the decision-going behind the back of your partner can be more serious than sex.

Unfortunately, as you say, we don't talk about expectations and needs, and not just IRT sex, but finances, children, work, in-laws, etc. It all causes problems when partners aren't on the same page as to what's acceptable and desired.