is music inherently intuitive while writing's always more cerebral?

[butters]

what say you?

is it a no-brainer?

i'm knackered and don't feel much like thinking.

 

[Tzara]

Well, this ain't very intuitive, but then you may not think it music, either.

 

[butters]

Well, this ain't very intuitive, but then you may not think it music, either.

but i do think it is. on both counts.

i shut my eyes and hear it - each plucked or stroked note calls forth an instantaneous answering response from my body that has nothing to do with the written word. it speaks without words and is answered without thinking.

i don't even have to understand the conversation taking part between it and myself. but it happens.

 

[CharleyH]

what say you?

Music vs. writing: a no-brainer?

i'm knackered and don't feel much like thinking.

I wouldn't call it a no-brainer. Both are cerebral and both are intuitive. Which part of the music do you want to discuss: the words, or the notes?

EDIT: Sorry, I'm little and late.

 

[butters]

I wouldn't call it a no-brainer. Both are cerebral and both are intuitive. Which part of the music do you want to discuss: the words, or the notes?

oh, just throwing something out there into the creative soup of the pobo. seeing what gels. or not

Tzara's link - i prefer it without the images. they interfere with the direct communion between myself and the sounds.

 

[butters]

I wouldn't call it a no-brainer. Both are cerebral and both are intuitive. Which part of the music do you want to discuss: the words, or the notes?

EDIT: Sorry, I'm little and late.

little and late. hahahaha

awwwww

 

[Angeline]

I live with a musician who also writes poetry. He says music is more intuitive though Tzara's example makes me unsure what "intuitive" really even means. I will say this: I almost always write poetry listening to music, mostly non-vocal jazz or classical. Listening gives me ideas about the pace of words in my lines and where I want to emphasize and break. Sometimes listening suggests images to me, sort of like Fantasia (but uh not Disney if you know what I mean), and I can get a narrative going that way. So maybe there is something about it that makes it more instinctive for me.

 

[bflagsst]

what say you?

is it a no-brainer?

i'm knackered and don't feel much like thinking.

I spent a good deal of time in music theory class in high school. Just writing four parts for a couple of measures was the most intense thinking I'd ever done up to that point. I guess different people operate differently, but poetry is a whole lot more intuitive than writing music or even coming up with a melody for me. I'm piss poor at prose and piss poor at counterpoint, so I'm just talking out my ear.

 

[fridayam]

I think that both music and poetry require huge effort to get on their respective page, but both should come off that page without effort. I think anyway that your question is redundant, since sometimes a poem can come as easily as milk from a tit and sometimes a musical phrase can take an age of thinking to refine. Is there not a correspondence between "this word should come after that" and "this note should come after that"? They are both equally difficult--whether it is cerebral or intuitive is a moot point in both cases.

 

[Sunndance07]

I think BOTH are instinctive

 

[Tzara]

but i do think it is. on both counts.

i shut my eyes and hear it - each plucked or stroked note calls forth an instantaneous answering response from my body that has nothing to do with the written word. it speaks without words and is answered without thinking.

i don't even have to understand the conversation taking part between it and myself. but it happens.

That's an interesting response, CB.

Based on your original post

is music inherently intuitive while writing's always more cerebral?

and being an inherently contrary person, I went off to find the most cerebral (music) composer I knew of, which was Mr. Babbitt. But then, the piece I looked for to post as example was specifically one of his string quartets, which despite his overcontrolling serialist technique, I find, personally, quite beautiful, which was why I picked it.

So, the obvious rift: Is your question about the creation of music or writing, or is it about the appreciation of such?

Makes a big difference, I would say.

And one I hadn't thought about. I just assumed the former.

There is, or should not be, no question that Milton Babbitt's compositions are extremely cerebral. The guy was a mathematician in WWII and his compositions attempt to control all aspects of a musical piece: pitch, timbre, duration, harmony, dynamics, and whatever else affects each element of musical score. They seem to me to be the very counter of "intuitive" (known or perceived by intuition : directly apprehended, per merriam-webster.com).

Why I picked him, of course.

But if we're talking about how the reader (or, for music, the listener) perceives something, we're talking about something very different.

Let me try something else. Someone who artistically, thematically, compositionally was more or less completely opposite to Babbitt. Listen to this. Don't watch the video--just listen to the audio track.

I'd be curious about your impression about it.

It's not a trick question, by the way, just a question.

This thread is getting more interesting, by-the-by.

 

[Tzara]

I live with a musician who also writes poetry. He says music is more intuitive though Tzara's example makes me unsure what "intuitive" really even means.

I think that's my problem (confusion) at the moment. What do we mean by that word?

I think my initial response was to think of it meaning something like "improvisational," which, Ms. Jazzaline, we both could whack over the head, as jazz is, or at least can be, extremely cerebral. I might say, in fact, that a jazz improvisation is about as off-the-cuff cerebral as music gets. Whoever the soloist is, they are absolutely thinking their way through their solo. Even (especially?) someone like Le Coltrane in this.

I will say this: I almost always write poetry listening to music, mostly non-vocal jazz or classical. Listening gives me ideas about the pace of words in my lines and where I want to emphasize and break. Sometimes listening suggests images to me, sort of like Fantasia (but uh not Disney if you know what I mean), and I can get a narrative going that way. So maybe there is something about it that makes it more instinctive for me.

I'm always listening to music, too, but I wouldn't say it helps my line breaks. Maybe if I paid more attention to it, it would.

I do love music, though. A thing, I think, that however differently we perceive it (or even how we differently perceive music), links us a little bit.

Or, hell, not.

Whatever.

 

[EroticOrogeny]

I'm not sure how relevant the dichotomy between intuitive and cerebral is.
Both arts involve some of both.
And where does our intuition come from? Our intution is honed by our past practice.
One fundamental difference (cultural, evolutionary ?) is that language is employed by everyone, while only some of us make music.

 

[bluerains]

music

moves the mass we can only listen...

 

[butters]

I live with a musician who also writes poetry. He says music is more intuitive though Tzara's example makes me unsure what "intuitive" really even means. I will say this: I almost always write poetry listening to music, mostly non-vocal jazz or classical. Listening gives me ideas about the pace of words in my lines and where I want to emphasize and break. Sometimes listening suggests images to me, sort of like Fantasia (but uh not Disney if you know what I mean), and I can get a narrative going that way. So maybe there is something about it that makes it more instinctive for me.

i guess i was going for more 'feeling over thinking?' as my intention here. and, just as we all create our poetry differently, i'd imagine musicians do the same; some will compose more from the heart, feeling their way through a piece, than think about what they've played, whereas others will be all about the thinking it through and controlling of its elements.

surely music, sounds, help us as poets. at least inasmuch as getting that sense of pace.

do you find listening to any music with words in it (oh, erm, that'd be songs, wouldn't it? ) distract you, though?

 

[butters]

I spent a good deal of time in music theory class in high school. Just writing four parts for a couple of measures was the most intense thinking I'd ever done up to that point. I guess different people operate differently, but poetry is a whole lot more intuitive than writing music or even coming up with a melody for me. I'm piss poor at prose and piss poor at counterpoint, so I'm just talking out my ear.

how about the listening/reading/interpreting side of things, though?

 

[butters]

I think that both music and poetry require huge effort to get on their respective page, but both should come off that page without effort. I think anyway that your question is redundant, since sometimes a poem can come as easily as milk from a tit and sometimes a musical phrase can take an age of thinking to refine. Is there not a correspondence between "this word should come after that" and "this note should come after that"? They are both equally difficult--whether it is cerebral or intuitive is a moot point in both cases.

i agree that it often takes huge effort to get either down on paper. it's that translation between what we're hearing/feeling into marks on a page.

moot, indeed, as in debatable ...

perhaps both become more instinctive the more tools/experience one acquires, though that in itself lends more dimension to the ability to create intellectually.

how about being on the receiving end, fridayam? when you listen to music, read poetry, or even listen to poetry and read music?

 

[butters]

That's an interesting response, CB.

Based on your original post and being an inherently contrary person, I went off to find the most cerebral (music) composer I knew of, which was Mr. Babbitt. But then, the piece I looked for to post as example was specifically one of his string quartets, which despite his overcontrolling serialist technique, I find, personally, quite beautiful, which was why I picked it.

So, the obvious rift: Is your question about the creation of music or writing, or is it about the appreciation of such?
i should have made myself clearer, but kind of wondered what responses this ambiguity would bring up.

Makes a big difference, I would say.
indeed it does

And one I hadn't thought about. I just assumed the former.
i'm glad you've now thought about something not thought about before. doing stuff like that takes our minds on interesting morning walks

There is, or should not be, no question that Milton Babbitt's compositions are extremely cerebral. The guy was a mathematician in WWII and his compositions attempt to control all aspects of a musical piece: pitch, timbre, duration, harmony, dynamics, and whatever else affects each element of musical score. They seem to me to be the very counter of "intuitive" (known or perceived by intuition : directly apprehended, per merriam-webster.com).
i agree
Why I picked him, of course.
naturally. and thanks, i'd not heard his work before.

But if we're talking about how the reader (or, for music, the listener) perceives something, we're talking about something very different.
yes, yes we are.

Let me try something else. Someone who artistically, thematically, compositionally was more or less completely opposite to Babbitt. Listen to this. Don't watch the video--just listen to the audio track.

I'd be curious about your impression about it.
will listen to it shortly and reply.

It's not a trick question, by the way, just a question.
meh

This thread is getting more interesting, by-the-by.

good

 

[butters]

I'm not sure how relevant the dichotomy between intuitive and cerebral is.

Both arts involve some of both.

And where does our intuition come from? Our intuition is honed by our past practice.

One fundamental difference (cultural, evolutionary ?) is that language is employed by everyone, while only some of us make music.

the purpose of this thread - a gentle exploration of thoughts

agreed

where it comes from, and the honing of it are two separate conditions, though i have to agree again that the honing of intuition is beneficial.

and some languages have a far deeper rooting in the musical way of sound than others.

 

[butters]

moves the mass we can only listen...

what about listening alone? with a working/developed understanding of the way music's composed?

a single poem can move millions, individually. maybe that doesn't translate to the masses en-masse the way music does ...

the understanding of poetry is (generally) requiring of some thought processes, some analysing, whereas music calls forth a deeper-rooted response ... music that has to be thought about might be more rewarding if the feel/think thing's complementary, but if it clashes that isn't so good.

 

[bflagsst]

Oh, I thought you were talking about creating music or poetry. Listening to music is a fairly passive experience. I analyze the structure of pop songs and Berlioz the same. But that's like a battle, trying to think about what's going on in a good song, it's like the opposite of meditation. Reading poetry isn't as passive as prose, and prose isn't as passive an experience as music or television. I don't know what intuitive means when you're listening or reading. Figuring out symbols is automatically more cerebral than figuring out how a song makes you feel. You should just feel it, shouldn't take much thought.

 

[butters]

Oh, I thought you were talking about creating music or poetry. Listening to music is a fairly passive experience. I analyze the structure of pop songs and Berlioz the same. But that's like a battle, trying to think about what's going on in a good song, it's like the opposite of meditation. Reading poetry isn't as passive as prose, and prose isn't as passive an experience as music or television. I don't know what intuitive means when you're listening or reading. Figuring out symbols is automatically more cerebral than figuring out how a song makes you feel. You should just feel it, shouldn't take much thought.

do you analyse on first listening, or does that happen during subsequent listenings? on that first time, doesn't your body respond, or, if not your body, your ... inner self? does it depend entirely upon the type of music?

i find my inner me responds automatically to music, positively or negatively or only enough to say this leaves me untouched ... but when it comes to songs, the lyrics automatically engage with my thinking-ness. some i am able to blot out entirely, but eminem's lyrics (as an example) definitely demand my thinking processes in a way that doesn't allow me to think about anything I may be attempting to write. he hijacks my head.

 

[Angeline]

i guess i was going for more 'feeling over thinking?' as my intention here. and, just as we all create our poetry differently, i'd imagine musicians do the same; some will compose more from the heart, feeling their way through a piece, than think about what they've played, whereas others will be all about the thinking it through and controlling of its elements.

surely music, sounds, help us as poets. at least inasmuch as getting that sense of pace.

do you find listening to any music with words in it (oh, erm, that'd be songs, wouldn't it? ) distract you, though?

My preference is generally not to listen to songs (words) because it creates cognitive dissonance and screws up my writing process. Otoh I'm a pretty good tuner-out, and there are times I listen to singing when I write.

 

[butters]

My preference is generally not to listen to songs (words) because it creates cognitive dissonance and screws up my writing process. Otoh I'm a pretty good tuner-out, and there are times I listen to singing when I write.

cognitive dissonance - that's the one
drives me nuts.

with kids and the noise of people around us, we have to be able to tune out at least some of the way or go mad with thought disruption, like sleep deprivation!

 

[bflagsst]

I understand the dissonance thing, the alien stuff seeping in. If I'm writing with music on it's to one song over and over. I've been doing it for a while, some song will hit me the right way and I'll write a poem based on that inspiration. My gf thinks I'm nuts because I'll play the same song literally 30 times in a row because that's how long it takes until I'm done with a poem. I don't know how many people will play the same scene, line in a movie or song over and over because something seemed strange about it. I like finding strangeness and uniqueness in the seemingly everyday.

I wanted to show you guys my new paintings of Yeats and Rimbaud.