Is Mentioning Racism Okay?

[Rumple Foreskin]

Ray Dario and Jon Hayworth made these observations over on the Story Feedback board during their critiques of my story, “Girl Talk,” http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=35746 located in the Lesbian section.

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Ray wrote: “Other than that the writing was good. Your use of dialog was pretty okay. I was a little turned off by the racist language of Ann and by her general racism. I know some people talk and think that way, but I don't like listening to them and I don't like reading about them. Yeah, I know she was black. But being a minority does not exclude you from being a racist and doesn't make being a racist any more acceptable.”

Jon Hayworth wrote: “Is rascism OK when expressed by someone who is black? Not sure - and she was not rascist in her actions. Beside a stated only screw black men thing, in the story it emerges she has tried an Indian, but (racial stereotyping here) he has a little cock. This reinforces and echoes the white rascist stereotype of all blackmen have big cocks and are itching to rape your wife, mother, sister etc. In other words you went beyond the pale on that score.”

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IMHO, Ray and Jon have raised some interesting issues that are best suited for discussion here at, Author’s Hangout.

1. Should a writer avoid “racist” language since it might turn-off some readers?
RF response: Nope

2. Is the content/subject of a story a valid topic for a “lengthy” discussion during a critique or should critiques focus mainly on traditional “writing” topics?
RF response: The author might find the critique writer’s political opinions interesting or even appreciate hearing that the story’s subject is a delicate one, but they probably just want advice on their writing.

3. Must all fiction be, henceforth and forever more, politically correct?
RF response: If the “N” word and its semantic partners-in-crime are excised from our vocabulary, how will future generations learn about, much less comprehend, the virulent, overt racism that existed in places such as the American South, Nazi Germany, and Rhodesia plus the more covert forms that can still be found in many sections of this and other countries?

4. Jon asked, “Is racism, OK when expressed by someone who’s black?” and answered his own question, “Not sure.” Jon, for what it’s worth, I am sure; it’s not okay. But I believe the real question should be, “Is there ever any justification for writing fiction that includes the mention of racism, has a racist character, or contains language which might be perceived as racist.”
RF response: IMHO, the answer must be yes unless the PC police are to be turned loose on, “Huck Finn,” “Too Kill a Mockingbird,” and just about everything ever written by William Faulkner.

5. Jon stated that having a black female character mention that an Indian doctor had a small penis “…reinforces and echoes the white rascist stereotype of all blackmen have big cocks and are itching to rape your wife, mother, sister etc. In other words you went beyond the pale on that score.” Is he right?
RF response: Nope. I was following, though not necessarily agreeing with, the first part of Jon’s argument, but then he hit the “…itching to rape…” part and he lost me. Would it be different if the doc were “hung like a mule”? Probably not. After all, wouldn’t that be implying that being black, she knows a B-I-G schlong when she sees one? And if the guy was endowed with “average” dimensions, that might be considered condescending. The logical extension of Jon’s argument would seem to be that all male characters must have the same size penis.

Anyway and for what it’s worth, none of this is intended as a slam against either Jon or Ray. I’d had three straight requests for feedback sink out of sight with no response before they took pity on me and accepted the challenge. Besides, to paraphrase old Tom Jefferson, "I may disagree with someone's views, but I'll fight to the death for my right to disagree with those views."

Rumple Foreskin

 

[cherrylips_au]

RF I haven't read your story your refering to but you have made some valid points.
If the character you are discribing is racist by their words or actions why should it be changed? Does the same able to characters who rape or murder?
Where do you draw the line? Just because you write about a characters that has those flaws doesn't mean you are condoning their behaviour.
Not everyone is PC and why should characters be?

 

[Couture]

It is the readers perogative to close the book or back click if they don't want to see "nigger" in print. However, the author has the right to put it in the story.

I'm from the south and I can assure you that people still use the word and I would be doing a diservice to what I was writing if I failed to use it in context of what a character would say.

Now, I've never written about a character who would say such a thing, but if I did, I would.

And if this word is so offensive, what about the other words?

Aren't cunt, twat, bitch, fuck, dick also considered offensive. I'm sure Mr. Ashecroft thinks so. Should I edit these words out of my stories?

 

[Closet Desire]

In the grander...

...scheme of things.

The PC police have already been all over classics like Huck Finn et. al. and I remember students in survey courses being decidedly uncomfortable with the language. There's really no reason to be uncomfortable with reality.

True literature is about all the things that make us what we are and that includes history, culture, bigotry, sexism, and anything else. In a novel how could we have a worthwhile story if the characters didn't mirror real life.

For an idea of what you end up with when you adopt an extreme narrow view of "safe" take a look at Disney. You won't find the word nigger in it because the result is so stereotypically "white" or vanilla that it's racist in the extreme.

In a good read we may have chauvinists who call women "cunts", rednecks who call black men "niggers", veterans who call orientals slope eyes, and blacks who call white men "crackers".

At the other end you may have female characters who love Barbies and who only want to marry and have babies as well as the men who think that's the only way it should be while there may be other women who torched their Barbies in the grill in a rage for what they represent.

Point is that life is full of stereotype, presumption, and so forth. To ignore it in literature as a writer is to write without substance. A writer who includes racist language isn't necessarily a racist any more than a writer whose character denigrates women a mysogynist.

IMHO of course.

 

[Couture]

Isn't it funny how the meaning of words change? For instance the word "colored" At one time that was the 'PC' word of choice. Then it became black, now it is african-american.

Isn't any word that describes the race of a person a racist word?

 

[KillerMuffin]

My personal thoughts is that if the character is a racist than to write him or her any other way would be wrong. Writing reflects the world and the world isn't Shiny Happy People Land.

If the author is a racist, then it's highly unlikely s/he'll become politically correct just to make other people happy.

 

[Ray Dario]

RF, I know you weren't jumping on me about this, and I'm not taking it that way. But I do want to clarify what I said and meant.

First off, you asked for feedback on your story. That required opinion and I gave you mine. In reference to racism, no where in my post did I say you shouldn't have written what you wrote. I told you I didn't like it.

I was a little turned off by the racist language of Ann and by her general racism. I know some people talk and think that way, but I don't like listening to them and I don't like reading about them. Yeah, I know she was black. But being a minority does not exclude you from being a racist and doesn't make being a racist any more acceptable.

I would be turned off by a story about incest too. That doesn't mean I feel people should be censored from writing incest stories, but if I give my opinion about an incest story I will tell the person, "I was a little turned off by the incest aspect of the story"

I felt like your "questions" were designed to be exceptionally one sided and argumentative but I'll give you my response to them anyway.

1. Should a writer avoid “racist” language since it might turn-off some readers?

Not if the story calls for it. "Huck Finn", a novel often used by those who wish to dispell arguments against racism, needed the racial aspect because that is what the story was about. It was appropriate there. Your story didn't really have a plot. It was just a sex scene so why add the racial overtones? You wanted to and you have every right to, but don't expect me to say, "Gee I loved the fact that you put all this racial dialog into your sex scene."

2. Is the content/subject of a story a valid topic for a “lengthy” discussion during a critique or should critiques focus mainly on traditional “writing” topics?

Is 4 sentences "Lengthy"? Oh well. You asked for feedback. If you didn't want "This worked for me, that didn't" comments then you should have stated that. I'm a firm believer in the motto "Don't ask the question if you don't want the answer."

3. Must all fiction be, henceforth and forever more, politically correct?

Certainly not and I NEVER NEVER NEVER even insinuated that it should. This question is simply designed to try to make Jon and I look like right wing extreamists! I do not condone nor promote censorship. Write whatever the hell you want, but don't expect me to be turned on by it just because you wrote it!

4. Jon asked, “Is racism, OK when expressed by someone who’s black?” and answered his own question, “Not sure.” Jon, for what it’s worth, I am sure; it’s not okay. But I believe the real question should be, “Is there ever any justification for writing fiction that includes the mention of racism, has a racist character, or contains language which might be perceived as racist.”

I have already answered this question, but I'll repeat my position again. If it's appropriate for the story, plays a part in the story line, or even if you just feel like putting it in there then you certainly can. If it's appropriate to the story it will have very little impact on how I feel about the story. I happen to like "Huck Finn" very much, but I wasn't sexually excited by it. If the racism isn't important to the story then it will detract from it for me. Others may enjoy the story more for it, but I won't.

5. Jon stated that having a black female character mention that an Indian doctor had a small penis “…reinforces and echoes the white rascist stereotype of all blackmen have big cocks and are itching to rape your wife, mother, sister etc. In other words you went beyond the pale on that score.” Is he right?

Actually I'm not sure what Jon was driving at. I think the racial overtones in this story increased the impression of the "Indian" stereotype, but after that Jon's statement kind of lost me.

Ray

 

[DVS]

I think all of this has already been said but I will still chime in.
Life has its good points and its bad points. Racism is one of the bad points. But if we don't show it, when a story calls for it, it will not be remembered and also will not be learned. If it isn't remembered and not learned, it will most likely stay one of life's bad points.

It has been said Disney is the extreme. This is not completely true, but very close to it. There is some color in a Disney film or story, but not that much. The true extreme would be nothing but grey. No definable colors to give hatefilled names to, and no colors to speak those names.

Should a writer use racial terms in a story? It has already been said. Yes. But, the story should call for it to be there.

The truth in our society is it needs to be shown what it is like, as ugly as it may be. That is, if we ever plan on changing it.

 

[jon.hayworth]

RF,

I guess I should make a response.

Ray says in answer to my Q Is Racism OK when expressed by someone who is Black? No not unless it is justified by the story.

Basically I agree with him on that point, what I could not get to grips with in your story was the justifacation for the character's racism. -

I do not live in a world seen through Rose-tinted glasses, I live in a country with its own race problems. I have to challenge my own inherent racism, and as a writer I must be aware of its existence. It maybe that if you had developed your character a little more the character's racist attitudes would have become justified. But as it was I felt it was lukewarm and in the context of the story without a rationale.

It is my personal view that no censorship is the ideal - I only modify that to say I believe that those who oppose the notions of free speech do not deserve the privelages in the first place. I envy you your constitution that guarrantees you freedom of expression - membership of the EU has at least given us a watered down version - previously in the UK we had no constitutional right.

And no all my character do not have the same size penises.

Finally by feedback on my story I took it you meant just that, and when I had finished reading that was how I felt about the story. If I had said that the lack of character development did a diservice because there was an inadequate justifacation of the character's racist attitude. Would you have still complained?

jon

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Jon and Ray,

I appreciate the sensitivity both of you have towards racism. My post wasn’t intended as a “defense” of my plot or use of a “racist” character, (I’ll save that for the Story Feedback board) but an examination of the problem contemporary writers must face when dealing with such an emotional issue. With any luck, this discussion may get a few folks to thinking about this subject. The important thing is that while you may have, IMHO, erred by over-reacting to my “racist” character, you erred on the side of the angels.

Rumple Foreskin

ps: Ray, those questions weren’t “designed” to be exceptionally one-sided, I just got lucky. Besides, it’s my post. So there.

 

[ilovewriting]

I avoid racism at ALL COSTS. I think the subject is too delicate, and not worth getting verbally attacked over. I have nothing against people mentioning racism or racist topis, i just think its not worth it. Leave that topic be.

 

[TheEarl]

Stephen King's characters are often racist. Stephen King himself is not. It may sound like a bit of a simplistic definition, but if you're writing about characters that are likely to be racist, then it's you duty to let them say their piece, even if you do not agree with their sentiments. Fudging a character is something I hate to see in a story (Yes I know, I'm being hypocritical, but I'm talkign about other people's stories).

The Earl

 

[Tsypheth]

My first rant. Please forgive me for this, but...

I agree with the basic premise that RF started from. Having said that, I would like to proceed to use the forum to state my opinion on the overall issue of characterization that this question reflects.

In RL, I have a heavily commited relationship to a black texan woman who is seven years younger than I am. I was raised in such a fashion that it never even occured to me that in today's modern, enlightened society, racism might still exist at a level that affected people's lives. My relationship has re-educated me on that point very heavily. She has had to deal with levels of racism her entire life that I didn't even know existed. Learning of the kinds of things that she's told me about has taken me from complete, virgin ignorance of the issue of racism in today's world to a slow, simmering rage that supposedly rational creatures (aka human beings) could be so b****ing ignorant. I have come to despise racist extremists, and I am appalled that people can treat each other the way they do for such a stupid reason as skin color.

That said, I continue: My original interest in writing stems from my lifelong love of reading and role-playing. I am a sixteen year veteran of Dungeons and Dragons, and my appreciation for good characterization in writing comes from the evolution of characterization that I've seen in our role playing group over the years. I long ago became so jaded as a rp'er that I started trying to play characters that were as radically different from myself as I could feasibly manage. So not so long ago, while struggling with the aforementioned racism issue, I did something extreme - I wrote up and begin playing a racist D&D character.

In D&D racism takes on a new meaning, as there are literally different races in the game, not just different genotypes of the same species. Humans, elves, dwarves, etc. Well, I began playing a character who saw all other races as inferior, and would volubly argue his viewpoint when he felt it was threatened. If an elf was able to save the party because they had superhuman hearing, then he would start a rant on how elves were inferior to humans. At first, playing a racist character annoyed and sickened me, and for a while I intended on giving up the character. But at some point, I started to realize something. Because of all the problems I had with the character's racist attitudes, I had been focusing more on that and less on other things about him. So I was surprised to discover that while the other characters hated the racist attitude, the other players protested at the idea of me quitting the character. One of them put it in perspective when he said, "I think the flaw of his attitude is what makes him believable."

I probably didn't have to write all of that to get to this conclusion, but it helps explain, in my mind, why I believe the way I do. Which is: Characters have to have flaws to be human. And if we only ever wrote about characters with politically correct flaws, then the suspension of disbelief would become harder and harder to maintain, as everyone knows that not all people are politically correct. And besides, even in fiction, sometimes characters are meant to be dislikeable. Giving them human, but politically incorrect flaws such as racism can be a good writer doing his job, not necessarily a racist prick of a writer describing his racist prick of a character. And even when it's done for no reason that's apparent in the story, remember that the story is an extension from the writers own mind, and the reason may have been quite obvious to the writer when in the context of his own mind, and simply not quite made the translation to the story.

Oh no, I've said too much; I haven't said enough.

And for what it's worth, RF, I liked the story.

-Tsypheth-

 

[DVS]

Re: My first rant. Please forgive me for this, but...

...I would like to proceed to use the forum to state my opinion on the overall issue of characterization that this question reflects...

An interesting opinion.

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: My first rant. Please forgive me for this, but...

So not so long ago, while struggling with the aforementioned racism issue, I did something extreme - I wrote up and begin playing a racist D&D character.

...
Oh no, I've said too much; I haven't said enough.

I too have used a D&D character to work out issus in my real life -- a neutral-evil assassin character that the DM asked me to tone down a bit 'cause I was making him sick. That was just after I speartated from my ex-wife and I needed to work out some aggression. <shrugs> Role-playing games that go beyond the hack & slash mode are good arenas to learn about characterization.

I think you said the right amount, and said it very well. Characters need flaws, and stories need "villians" -- and sometimes authors need catharsis.

Any and all of those factors can lead to characters even the author hates, but they make the story more believable because the world just isn't PC -- as much as some people would like it to be.