Is it rape?

[Kailey_86]

Everyone preaches safe, sane, and consensual when it comes to BDSM and D/s and whatnot. Can a sub/slave withdraw consent because they aren't in the mood, they aren't enjoying something anymore, or they don't like something? If they say "no, i don't want to" when it comes to sex but the Dom proceeds, is that rape? What would you do (as a Dom) if a sub/slave decided to withdraw consent by saying they really didn't want to do what was asked and they were serious about it?

 

[Little_Kitten]

I guess if they truly want it to stop, they'd have to use their safeword... Maybe it's rape if the dom goes beyond the safeword?

 

[WickedDustin]

I agree. Consent CAN be withdrawn, after which point it becomes rape. I think if a sub withdraws consent just because they don't 'feel like it' that day, the Dom/sub relationship may need to be re-examined, but consent can still be withdrawn if the sub wishes it.

 

[myinnerslut]

theoretically, until i use my safeword, anythign goes except those limits that we already decided on. this was what we agreed on. and if i just want in the mood, but didnt call my safeword, theoretically it would all still be ok.

in actuality, if i said no, and A thought i meant it, but i didnt call my safeword, i believe he would still stop. if he didnt stop, based on what we agreed upon, it would be fine. but i think it he would. i think it would suck the fun out of it for him. if i want to be "forced" i would ask prior to any sexual activity. it would be his choice in the end, but he and i both know if i say NO i'd better have a damn good reason.

 

[PreggoHottie]

no, i don't want to" when it comes to sex but the Dom proceeds, is that rape?

ImO, yes...if it happened to me i would be reevaluating the relationship i had with my Dom.



Flame away...i can take it..

 

[rosco rathbone]

It is rape unless a notarized con noncon contract has been filed. You can download them on the internet.

 

[catalina_francisco]

IMHO there is no answer as it depends on the terms of the relationship, not what anonymous people on a forum think based on what they would do/want/agree to/accept.

Catalina

 

[Belladonna]

For me, it depends on the relationship between the Dom and the sub. As a 24/7 relationship, I would say no, it is not rape, and the same goes for Master/slave. If she or he is owned, then there is never such a thing as rape. that being said, I agree with Little_Kitten. If the Dom/Top/Master/Mistress breaks that trust and goes beyond the safe word, then yes, indeed, it is rape and there for non-consensual. But the root of it is the type of trust and relationship you have with your Dom. I want my Dom to *rape* me, though if it ever went "too" far, I would use my safe word and he would stop. This, I suppose is not really the definition of rape, but still the power exchange is there. I say no to my Dom/bf all the time, but I never mean it.
I'm not sure if I answered your question, but at the end of the day, yes is yes, no is no, and red is STOP.

 

[Belladonna]

It is rape unless a notarized con noncon contract has been filed. You can download them on the internet.

I understand where you are coming from, but do not agree that is the only answer. A lot of people depend on those contracts, yes, but we all know they are not legally binding. D/s is defined by each individual's personal relationships IMHO. Contracts are a great way to know where each person stands, where the line is drawn and when the line is crossed. Again, if you are just not in the mood and don't want to, I see no reason for any Dom with respect for himself or his sub to do it anyway, unless TPE is the root of that relationship. There are too many variables.
But I just wanted to add my 2 more cents to the fact that contracts are a good base, a good starting point, and a great way to share a sort of *vow* with your Sig. Other. Beyond that...even with one, you can still experience rape.

 

[Belladonna]

IMHO there is no answer as it depends on the terms of the relationship, not what anonymous people on a forum think based on what they would do/want/agree to/accept.

Catalina

I agree completely.

 

[Otto26]

If the sub uses their safeword consent has been withdrawn. If it goes further then it's rape. Some people would enjoy that, and I make no value judgements regarding that, but the bottom line is that non-consensual sex is rape.

 

[liberatedslave]

The variables as I see them are the agreed limits, the agreed use of a safeword & the reason for withdrawing consent. In a healthy D/s r'ship the PYL will know what services the pyl is happy to perform & will recognise genuine fear & distress - even if a r'ship has moved beyond safewords. The option is always there for a PYL to disregard the pyl which is why such trust is involved in power exchanges. No SSC PYL will risk a r'ship & jail for a quick kick. 'Rape' depends on a pyl's view if limits are unclear.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I do think it also comes down to how serious some people take this lifestyle and the commitments they make within it. More and more I am seeing people who want to be part of the lifestyle, and in so doing want to be 'no limits' and 'no safe word' and 100% owned and controlled....until they are asked to do something they do not like and cannot put into a 'fun' place in their mind or busy schedule. Sorry folks, but if you are going to commit to certain terms, it is not a game to many and is not then up for discussion once it gets a little unexpected and demanding, or just because they don't feel like it right now. Since when is it that the PYL's position in the mix is to only cater to things the pyl will 'like' on some level...why isn't it just as acceptable to say the PYL doesn't have to comply with or do anything they don't like and expect to have their 'likes' also catered to? After all, aren't they the ones who are supposed to be the Dominant one, not a tool to help the pyl get their jollies and then watch them pack their bag once they are expected to return the favour and do what they so gleefully agreed to in the first place?

Catalina

 

[CutieMouse]

It depends upon the relationship.

Did the submissive party willingly abandon all use of safe words/time out/"not tonight Dear" for the 24/7 exsistance of the relationship, or does she retain right of refusal?

Has the submissive party expressed an interest in/desire/willingness to be "raped"? If one expresses a desire to be "raped", ignoring refusal of consent within the context of a normally "consensual activity", is a pretty good way to accomplish the task.

Regardless, I would hope flirting with this particularly edgy activity (consent even within a non-consensual situation), to be something that occurs within the confines of a firmly established, very very very committed, long term, know each other psychologically inside and out, relationship.

I'm curious if this is a theoretical inquiry, or a practical one...

 

[catalina_francisco]

It depends upon the relationship.

Did the submissive party willingly abandon all use of safe words/time out/"not tonight Dear" for the 24/7 exsistance of the relationship, or does she retain right of refusal?

Has the submissive party expressed an interest in/desire/willingness to be "raped"? If one expresses a desire to be "raped", ignoring refusal of consent within the context of a normally "consensual activity", is a pretty good way to accomplish the task.

Regardless, I would hope flirting with this particularly edgy activity (consent even within a non-consensual situation), to be something that occurs within the confines of a firmly established, very very very committed, long term, know each other psychologically inside and out, relationship.

I'm curious if this is a theoretical inquiry, or a practical one...

Great post, and a good point in bold...problem is some people have a different definition to committed, long term relationship to what you and I think of I think CM. I just have never been in a place where I was willing to count something as that dependable without a bit more substantial commitment than getting together to play and experiment, but many have no problem with it and are surprised when it doesn't lead any further. Fickle world we live in.

Catalina

 

[Kailey_86]

This thread has nothing to do with me really. i was just curious about what others thought about it.

i believe that if consent is given initially, everything that the Dom does afterwards is ok. i think that limits, likes, and dislikes should be talked about before consent is given though. The Dom shouldn't necessarily cater to their subs desires but He might decide not to do something that the sub dislikes as often as He would if she liked it. Keeping the sub somewhat happy will in turn keep the Dom happy IMO.

There have been lots of times where i didn't want to do something or didn't like doing something but i did it anyway. i might not get any enjoyment out of the act itself but the fact that it makes my Dom happy is enough for me. THAT is what keeps me content in the relationship despite having to do things that i don't like. It isn't about me anyway. His pleasure is my pleasure.

Edited to add: Of course if the sub decides that she is no longer happy or doesn't feel safe in the relationship anymore she can decide to withdraw consent. At that point the couple needs to end or reevaluate the relationship.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

i agree with those that say it depends on the relationship, though if a submissive is going to 'withdraw' consent every time he/she doesn't want to do something that the Dom has told them to do, then i wonder how serious the submissive is about the relationship and the lifestyle.

though there have been plenty of times that i say 'i'm really not in the mood' and most of tFor mine and Master's relationship, i can voice that i dont' like something all i want. or that i'm not in the mood...if He IS in the mood then He's gonna take what's His, because after all, it IS His. i gave my everything over to Him therefore He makes the decisions on when we have sex, etc...though most of those times He won't just say 'well I am going to take what's mine' most of the times this has happened we've talked about it and He decided to let me go to bed or whatever, BUT had He decided He wanted it anyway, it would NOT have been rape.

He is Master and His pleasure and what He wants is what is important in our relationship, period. this is kind of like the 'blank check of consent' thread that RJ started not very long ago.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

I agree that it depends on the relationship as outlined by others.

 

[FurryFury]

I'm in the, if the safe word is used but ignored, it's rape camp. Oh and not the fun play sort of rape.

Fury

 

[catalina_francisco]

Edited to add: Of course if the sub decides that she is no longer happy or doesn't feel safe in the relationship anymore she can decide to withdraw consent. At that point the couple needs to end or reevaluate the relationship.

LOL, well see this is what I am talking about. If you are in a relationship where you have safe words and temporary consent, then yes, as a sub you may choose to withdraw consent, but there are many relationships where once given it is not retrievable at whim or ever, and yet it seems many still feel that is an option and are surprised when the one they have given said consent too doesn't see it the same way. What I see often, and yes, have done so a lot here of late, is that it is said to be understood what it means to give consent which cannot be retracted, but that understanding is based on the PYL conforming to a set of expected behaviours and deviating from them means the sub will refuse and/or walk (as far as the sub is concerned, not often what they tell the PYL)...and IMHO they are 2 different things miles apart from each other. My advice is, if you are not prepared to remain and maintain your word of consent, don't enter into a relationship where no limits exist and safe words have been discarded....saves a lot of misunderstandings and hurt feelings. There also seems to be this misconception as was mentioned again here, that in all circumstances a PYL mostly does what keeps the pyl happy because that in turn makes them happy.....newsflash, some PYL's aren't necessarily concerned with or reliant on your happiness or prepared to base their decisions and actions on it, and that does not make them a monster, just something many pyl's and some other PYL's don't understand except in terms of it being bad and negative, when in my eyes it means they are Dominant and need someone who can recognise that is not an issue up for discussion, or whim, or play.

Hmmm, as to it not being about you Kailey, maybe not, maybe yes, as you have said that before and the next week been fully immersed in whatever you were asking about...I think your initial questions about puppy play was one (I think poly was another one you were just 'researching casually and then became immersed in before decidiomg it wasn't for you after all and moving on)....you asked, said it was just something you had come across but weren't interested in trying necessarily, and then shortly after you were tossing toys around J's place and playing puppy in an abandoned and far from casually interested fashion. This is why I am cautioning you once again....yes, I know, you are sick of it and will probably ignore it as you feel you know what you want and are capable of...but in reality it is not just for you, but for all those who are prone to making quick decisions based on 'research' without taking full responsibility beyond the initial excitement and quickening pulse, for what they are getting into.

This area you seem to be asking about and are now interested in is not for most (very few in fact when you get into areas of giving consent which is not deemed as necesary to recheck AKA blanket consent), and not for someone who does not recognise what it could mean, but time and again it is just what many subs walk into without having their eyes wide open and then crying foul once they hit a sticky spot. While I can empathise at times, I figure it is better to make sure they think long and hard, take responsibility up front to prevent the fallout and also to ensure they think more carefully and thus increase their safety and happiness. I don't see it as something anyone should do when they are in transition or instability in any form in their own life including employment and income (actually one of the most important to consider as many are vulnerable when out of control of those areas of their life and so not always conscious and able to make an informed and right decision for them), housing, career, personal issues, growth changes such as developmental phases, or inexperience in relationships and life. Exploration is good, but there are ways to do it safely, and ways to do it where you leave yourself open to becoming a damaged soul with a huge pile of baggage in the future.

Catalina

 

[Kailey_86]

i assure you catalina, this isn't about me. i got the idea for this thread from the Collarme.com forum. i might have said that i was just researching for other things in the past because, at the time, i was. Then i jumped in after i got a feel for what i was getting myself into. It doesn't really matter though because what i am doing works for me. i am happy.

You talk about people thinking that they can enter a relationship and then feeling that they can withdraw consent somewhere down the road. Maybe people are moving to quickly but it doesn't mean that they aren't taking the D/s dynamic seriously. It means that our world has changed. Look at how many divorces there are these days. People sometimes just grow apart. The reality is that the subs CAN withdraw consent whenever they want. It doesn't mean they are any less real than you or someone else who stays in the relationship forever.

i don't understand your thinking when it comes to the sub's happiness. The Dom shouldn't necessarily cater to the sub's needs, as i said, but he should care whether or not she is happy. If he doesn't, it's not a real relationship IMO. A couple, whether it be D/s or vanilla, should care about each other's happiness. If a sub ends up being absolutly miserable in the relationship, why the hell should she stay? She isn't going to want to put any effort into serving her Dom if she is unhappy. It is in her Dom's best interest to let her go. This doesn't mean that they aren't taking it seriously though.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

i assure you catalina, this isn't about me. i got the idea for this thread from the Collarme.com forum. i might have said that i was just researching for other things in the past because, at the time, i was. Then i jumped in after i got a feel for what i was getting myself into. It doesn't really matter though because what i am doing works for me. i am happy.

You talk about people thinking that they can enter a relationship and then feeling that they can withdraw consent somewhere down the road. Maybe people are moving to quickly but it doesn't mean that they aren't taking the D/s dynamic seriously. It means that our world has changed. Look at how many divorces there are these days. People sometimes just grow apart. The reality is that the subs CAN withdraw consent whenever they want. It doesn't mean they are any less real than you or someone else who stays in the relationship forever.

i don't understand your thinking when it comes to the sub's happiness. The Dom shouldn't necessarily cater to the sub's needs, as i said, but he should care whether or not she is happy. If he doesn't, it's not a real relationship IMO. A couple, whether it be D/s or vanilla, should care about each other's happiness. If a sub ends up being absolutly miserable in the relationship, why the hell should she stay? She isn't going to want to put any effort into serving her Dom if she is unhappy. It is in her Dom's best interest to let her go. This doesn't mean that they aren't taking it seriously though.

for the most part Kailey, i agree with you. BUT, knowing cat and the type of relationship (TPE) and what that means to her, i understand where she is coming from. and though i'm not speaking for her, i do believe that she was talking about people going into a TPE quickly and then taking away their consent once they are asked to do something that they do not want to do. i guess you have to understand her and F's dynamic to understand where she is coming from. in their relationship (as i understand it) He will ALWAYS own her, she does not have the right to take back the control He has over her. it took me a long time to 'get it' and i still don't get it 100% but i do understand to an extent.

in mine and Master's relationship however (i dont' see TPE quite the same way that cat and F do) if i'm not happy, i'm not just going to take the control back, i'm going to tell Him i'm unhappy, and we'll work through it the best we can, if however there is no working it out, then yes, i will ask to be released and He wouldn't deny me that. but you asked a question that is going to have a huge variety of answers as not every relationship is the same.

as for the submissives happiness, believe it or not, there are Dom's out there who this really doesn't matter to, and especially in a Master/slave dynamic, it's not about the slaves happiness at all, its all about Master and Master being happy makes slave happy, whether it's something the slave wants to do or not. i do tend to agree with cat, in that too many submissives enter into these relationships and then once asked to do something they don't' want to do, they withdraw their consent at the drop of a hat. to me that's not what this lifestyle is about. there have been PLENTY of times Master has felt like having sex, and i didn't, guess who won? right, Master. i am His property, He owns me and He will do with me what He wants, when He wants, Period. and just because i'm not in the mood doesn't mean i can 'withdraw consent' to me that's a silly reason and would show that i'm not all that serious about the relationship or the lifestyle.....just my two cents.

 

[Etoile]

I have been with my Daddy for just under 7 years. In that time, I have never had a safeword. I'm still here. Many things have been done to me that I would probably consider rape, but I lived through them. I would be terribly disappointed in myself if I had just safeworded out of these tough things. Like I said, I survived, I'm still happy, etc. I have learned a lot about what I am capable of by not having a safeword. And I wouldn't say I've been raped, ever. I've just been stretched beyond where I thought I could go.

 

[Irony_Sinclair]

Interesting discussion and one that seems to always come around sooner or later in th BDSM world.

In my mind, all of the answers given are right. They are right because of the perspective of the poster. That does not make them the right answer for all the other posters or the person originally asking the question. That is one of the biggest pitfalls I've seen in on-line forums, D/s or otherwise. That is, people are seeking advice and input but forget that it is only just so valuable. The input we receive is based on the poster's perspective, situation, beliefs, etc. So it will often be biased (good or bad), inaccurate, not applicable, and so on. And even the most generic information doesn't necessarily mean it will be good for us as an individual.

I understand exactly what Cat is saying and why. When I used to regularly cruise D/s themed forums I was always amazed at how easily and quickly used the term "slave." In my mind, a sub and slave are two totally different things and I've encountered VERY few people on either end of the rope who truly understand it and are capable of engaging in it. Yet, people just love to toss the term around. Especially, in my experience anyway, those engaged in on-line D/s relationships. I mean no disrespect to those in such situations but I honestly don't get how one can be a slave to a person a thousand miles away. But calling someone or one's self "slave" seems very popular. But then you often find that neither the dominant nor the so-called slave are truly engaged in total TPE.

I've seen posts for example where a slave will say how they and their master got into a huge argument over something simple, say groceries or whatever, and now they aren't talking and so on and so on. And I read those posts thinking, huh? How can a slave get into an argument like that with their master? From MY perspective and idea of a Master/slave relationship, those do not qualify.

So I think what Cat is trying to convey, is that it is very common and trendy for people to believe they are things and engaged in things that they truly are not and are not capable of. That applies to both dominants and submissives. The trouble truly begins when one of the two IS capable of it and begins to engage it in it fully. That's when the "shortcomings" of the other become an issue.

You mentioned the rate of failed marriages because people grow apart as way of supporting the happiness and needs of both the dominant and sub. I would say, that the bulk of failed marriages are caused by two things: 1) People rushing into things without truly being honest with themselves and their partner and not truly understanding what is marriage means. 2) Laziness and selfishness on the part of one or both people. People seem to think marriage should always be blissfull and exciting and so on. Well, gee, after 18 years I can tell you, there are down times and tough times. And there have been times when one or the other of us considered throwing in the towel and I believe most folks would have. But we didn't. We worked through those times, grew from them, and moved on. So in my mind, the marriage comparrison only highlights what Cat is saying. Too few people really understand themselves or the true meaning of that depth of commitment and when times get tough they bail or rebel. Please understand I'm not attacking you Kailey, not at all, just trying to emphasize my perspective.

I've also seen a lot of folks turn to D/s as a way to spice up their marriage. They may not admit it or even realize it, but they are bored and unhappy and this looks attractive. But that rarely works, just like having a baby rarely works. We must have solid relationships to start, especially in D/s. Now, I completely understand that the definition and the depth of that relationship may totally and completely casual with next to nothing in terms of other contact or even anything that resembles friendship. But there still must be a plain and solid understanding of relationship. Hope that makes sense...

So, many people find themselves wanting to engage in edge play or potentially dangerous play and don't truly understand the emotional and/or physical hazards associated with it. Then when something turns out badly it leaves two people confused and flustered and angry.

I'll say again, I personally believe very few folks engaged in D/s are capable of what I perceive total TPE to mean. I know I'm not, nor would I want to be. It's just for me. We maintain a fairly normal marriage, with power play just under the surface. And that works for us. So when I give an opinion or advice, the receiver needs to always understand that it comes from my perspective and biasness.

Is it rape? I don't know. Only those engaged in it can decide that.

Sorry for being so long winded.

 

[Inconsequential]

Everyone preaches safe, sane, and consensual when it comes to BDSM and D/s and whatnot. Can a sub/slave withdraw consent because they aren't in the mood, they aren't enjoying something anymore, or they don't like something? If they say "no, i don't want to" when it comes to sex but the Dom proceeds, is that rape? What would you do (as a Dom) if a sub/slave decided to withdraw consent by saying they really didn't want to do what was asked and they were serious about it?

I feel a sub can revoke willingness and become non consensual, but at the same time, there are other relationships that are deeper and consent has been given previously for whatever.
I do feel a Dom/me can rape, it's not out of the realm of possibility. I have to wonder if they are Dominant or domineering at that point. And if they do move beyond the safeword, is it still a safe situation for the submissive.
I do feel the sub has a right to say they don't want to do something, I feel they should discuss it tho. I don't think they should approach it as "No" and leave it at that.
I think if a sub were to withdraw consent at that point the dom/me needs to open discussion and more communication. IMHO