Is it possible to do a Gor or a Ginger nowadays?

[PatPowers]

I was thinking .... would it be possible to create a book/movie/TV series like the Gor novels or the Ginger movies, which are chock full of sexual bondage scenes, but are not clearly recognized as being all about the bondage by the mainstream folks? I mean, the first Gor novel was written back in 1967, and the first Ginger movie was made in 1970, when kinky stuff Just Didn't Happen in the mainstream, or if it did, it was as an example of psychologically disturbed people being psychologically disturbed (see: "Story of O").

I think because the Gor novels were first accepted as mainstream SF, and the Ginger movies as standard sexploitation detective movies, they gave readers who would never ordinarily touch an overtly kinky title a certain license to read a Gor novel/watch a Ginger movie. Kind of the way a lot of guys who'd never be seen buying a copy of Maxim or FHM will buy a copy of the Sport Illustrated swimsuit edition because it's not not a men's magazine, it's Sports illustrated.

But things were different back then: the common perception was that bondage was something only practiced by beret-wearing beatniks in New York City with the aid of capri-pants wearing hotties like Bettie Page. It wasn't something that people expected to see in mainstream books and movies, unless presented specificaly as a bondage story, like "Story of O." So when they watched Ginger or read the Gor novels, they didn't really see it.

Of course, people are a lot more sophisticated about bondage nowadays, but they're also a lot less sensitized to it in certain respect. That is, during the recent episode of "Desire" where the bad guy spent so much time fondling and gloating over his bound victim, there's a DEFINITE sexual bondage subtext going on there. I think modern audiences would tend to note and not be particularly upset about this because it's just something a director might do in an edgy damsel in distress scene. Their awareness of sexual bondage has in a sense desensitized them.

So, the quest is, could someone do a bondage series of some kind now in a mainstream venue, without having it immediately recognized for what it is? Would the increased awareness of sexual bondage make them more apt to catch on, or would the desensitizing of audiences to sexual bondage imagery make them less apt to catch on?

And for bonus points, what sort of venue might work? That is, what sort of mainstream movie/TV/novel genre might work as effectively for bondage imagery as John Norman's sword and sand fantasies, or the Ginger movies' detective genre?

What think you, O solons of Literotica?

 

[Lester_Hammond]

I love Gor. I even have "The Fighting Slave of Gor", which I have read a few times but is now sadly collecting dust in the loft!

It would be great if another story series like this came out, which was more in tune with modern life. If you hear of any, could you let me know please?

 

[rosco rathbone]

"location: lair" lol.

 

[Chicklet]

I was thinking .... would it be possible to create a book/movie/TV series like the Gor novels or the Ginger movies, which are chock full of sexual bondage scenes, but are not clearly recognized as being all about the bondage by the mainstream folks?

Whenever I think about Gor I think about the gigantic following the books have, and the 'lifestyles' that have evolved from it. It's hard for me to take your post out of the context of what irritations Gor brings up in me.

I think that it's definitely possible to create a book with strong bondage or sexual context without it being seen as such. I think the movie Secretary actually came rather close to that. It was really popular, and not just because kinky people wanted to see a kinky movie. I know a lot of people who hadn't really thought about the D/s relationship the movie presented. But even that movie is pretty obvious.

I definitely agree with you about the mainstream people being more sexually aware of the deviant lifestyles out there... I think a lot of people have benefited sexually from the information the internet gives us on a daily basis about crazy kinks far beyond our own But I still believe it's *possible* to create a new series, movie, and television show with stealthy bdsm themes.

What'd be interesting is whether or not the movie/show/series would get popular enough for us to hear about it... because, for instance, if it was kinky enough for us to talk about on the BDSM forum, I bet more than one of us would tell a vanilla friend, and quicker than wildfire the BDSM aspect of the show/book/movie would be mainstream.

 

[PatPowers]

I love Gor. I even have "The Fighting Slave of Gor", which I have read a few times but is now sadly collecting dust in the loft!

It would be great if another story series like this came out, which was more in tune with modern life. If you hear of any, could you let me know please?

Have some Karg. My attempt at a more modern take on Gor.

 

[PatPowers]

Whenever I think about Gor I think about the gigantic following the books have, and the 'lifestyles' that have evolved from it. It's hard for me to take your post out of the context of what irritations Gor brings up in me.

Yeah, the people who don't like Gorean lifestyles tend not to like me liking the books, and the Goreans tend to not like me because I think the books are fiction and not to be taken seriously. But that's pretty much how I feel about 'em.

I think that it's definitely possible to create a book with strong bondage or sexual context without it being seen as such. I think the movie Secretary actually came rather close to that. It was really popular, and not just because kinky people wanted to see a kinky movie. I know a lot of people who hadn't really thought about the D/s relationship the movie presented. But even that movie is pretty obvious.

I think "Secretary" is something more along the lines of "Story of O" where the audience is invited to look at the peculiar D/s people behaving peculiarly. I mean, when we first see Lee, the Maggie Gyllenhaal character, she's just been released from a mental institution. The difference between the O and Lee being that Lee is clearly the heroine of the movie, and we are invited to understand and sympathize with her. Whereas O is always presented as this person with strange, unfathomable desires which she does not understand which leads her to get involved with a strange subculture. Contrast that with Lee, who eventually winds up in a conventional, if not normal, marriage.

I guess what I'm saying is that the fact that Lee is is a sympathetic character audiences can like and admire means that the mainstream has come a long way in its understanding of bondage, but she's still presented as this weird bondage person and hence there's nothing stealthy about the bondage, as you say.

I definitely agree with you about the mainstream people being more sexually aware of the deviant lifestyles out there... I think a lot of people have benefited sexually from the information the internet gives us on a daily basis about crazy kinks far beyond our own But I still believe it's *possible* to create a new series, movie, and television show with stealthy bdsm themes.

I think so, too, and I guess the reason I think so is the TV series "Xena: Warrior Princess." There was a definite lesbian subtext going on in Xena, and everybody knew it, and the creators of the show didn't deny it, in fact, they played with the audience's expectations about it. I don't see why a modern TV series couldn't do the same with a show about, say, a reporter who's constantly snooping around and sticking her nose where she shouldn't and getting captured by bad guys to such an extent that people begin to suspect she enjoys being tied up.

What'd be interesting is whether or not the movie/show/series would get popular enough for us to hear about it... because, for instance, if it was kinky enough for us to talk about on the BDSM forum, I bet more than one of us would tell a vanilla friend, and quicker than wildfire the BDSM aspect of the show/book/movie would be mainstream.

I think audiences might well find it quite tolerable, if it were handled in the same way Xena handled its lesbian subtext.

 

[bridgeburner]

There are a lot of things we can't get away with anymore. There was something about the sexploitation films of the 70's that really doesn't seem to be able to come to light these days for various reasons, not least of which is that we're too afraid to offend anyone now. Think of the rash of Nazi sexploitation flicks that came out of Italy, no one would touch something like that these days with a 39 1/2 foot pole. (heh, except for these guys.)

There still are sexploitation films but they're mostly confined to the cheesy horror genre. Not that there isn't any sexual exploitation in mainstream film, there certainly is, but not of the 70's type.

I don't know if you chanced to see a film about a year ago called Hostel, but if you're a fan of the 70's Giallo films you'd have recognized it as a slick modern attempt with high production values and major tits & ass accompanied by horrific gore. Unlike its source inspiration, however, Hostel very clearly kept the sex and the violence apart from one another. While the first part of the film is nothing but soft-porn, when it gets down to brass tacks and there's a female character imprisioned in one of the torture chambers it never occurrs to anyone to take her clothes off and molest her sexually. There's no sexuality at all in the scene, the bad guy just goes after her with a blow-torch.

---brief interruption to publicly state that I realize I look like a complete sicko, all of a sudden----

At any rate, the sex is separate from the violence or from any indication of force or coersion or danger. This would never have flown in a 70's flick where one of the main objectives of the film was to put a woman in decidedly sexual peril, not just mortal danger.

Frankly, I'm not a fan of gore, but because it was so often coupled with genuine sexual peril in the 70's I've seen an awful lot of it.

Good lord, I'm rambling, sorry.

I think my only real point is that I don't think anyone could really get away with it these days in a mainstream way. People aren't in a philosophical frame of mind to accept the playful premise of a fictional character bound and raped for the audience's titillation all in good fun. ;->

There's also the fact that you'd never get a surprise penetration shot nowadays like you occasionally did in the 70's.

 

[Chicklet]

Yeah, the people who don't like Gorean lifestyles tend not to like me liking the books, and the Goreans tend to not like me because I think the books are fiction and not to be taken seriously. But that's pretty much how I feel about 'em.

actually, i've read all but three of the gor books, and enjoyed them to a large extent. i don't take them seriously, but i DID shamefully enjoy the paragraphs that went on for more than two pages... they fueled my need for bdsm erotica before i turned 16 I still have most of my books, although i decided a few years ago to sell the less common ones on eBay. Thank you, whoever thought magicians of gor was worth $90, after I bought it for $2 at a used bookstore!

 

[Penalt]

Totally loved the early Gor books. The later ones not so much. I don't think you could do a Gor movie or series unless there was some sort of strong 'uncollared' female lead to 'redeem' the show for the mainstream. Its sort of like there is absolutely no way they could redo "Blazing Saddles" today with the same script. No chance at all.