Is it ethical to have someone else write some of your story?

[lovecraft68]

I received and e-mail from one of my readers a couple of days ago with a link to another authors story. Reason he sent it was because someone had mentioned my main characters name in a comment on his story (not my name or story name). The "fan" mentioned they would love to see his character "In a ring" with mine.

The authors main character is annoyingly similar to mine to the point I have wondered about it seeing my series debuted months before his. Well this started off a series of comments from the author and his editor about his characters fighting prowess. Ticky tack in itself as it drives up the number of comments but whatever.

End of it is the guy admits that his editor, not him writes his fight scenes because he sucks at them but wants them in his story. He immediately began taking a beating from some other posters and has since removed all those comments and I am sure regrets opening his mouth.

My question is that is it right to have someone write parts of your story? Well at least without acknowledging it? For the record the only reason he fessed was another comment that stated the fight sucked so he immediately threw the guy under the bus (writer in question is so arrogant he makes Scouries look humble)

It just got me wondering, I mean if you can't write something you wouldn't think to put it in your story in the first place or maybe would at least just take a shot at it. (I am not the best of lesbian sex writers but needed it in a chapter so winged it and took some abuse guess it's not my forte but I gave it a try) I mean I couldn't write a gay male scene to save my life so would never put one in a story but maybe I should and advertise on the story ideas forum for some one to write it for me. (Hey SR you busy?)

I have had my editor send me back my work with suggested sentences here and there and once or twice a suggested re write of an entire paragraph but I can't conceive of letting someone write one or two entire pages of a story. Just wondering what the consensus on this would be. Maybe a lot of people do it I don't know. I wouldn't think so.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I've gotten some help with stories. I value it greatly and will put that acknowledgement in the heading any time I post it. Heck, C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien used to meet and work on each other's novels. I'm not going to put myself above them.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Since you are just asking for opinions, I would see nothing wrong with somebody, especially an editor, writting a few sentences here and there, since you would be giving the editor credit for his or her work on the story. After all, that's one of the things editors do. However, if somebody writes whole scenes for you, I believe that person should be considered a co-author.

Out of curiosity, if you suck at writing fighting scenes, why are you writing about fighting?

 

[lovecraft68]

Since you are just asking for opinions, I would see nothing wrong with somebody, especially an editor, writting a few sentences here and there, since you would be giving the editor credit for his or her work on the story. After all, that's one of the things editors do. However, if somebody writes whole scenes for you, I believe that person should be considered a co-author.

Out of curiosity, if you suck at writing fighting scenes, why are you writing about fighting?

Well that would be my question to that author. Personally I feel my fight scenes come out fairly well. I am a third degree black belt in Kenpo so have a very good feel of the flow of a fight. Personally if there was something I knew I couldn't pull off I would not toss it in.

 

[lovecraft68]

I've gotten some help with stories. I value it greatly and will put that acknowledgement in the heading any time I post it. Heck, C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien used to meet and work on each others novels. I'm not going to put myself above them.

I have no issue with help. I have used a few lines from an editor here and there. But in the situation of entire scenes I would think it should be mentioned or it's you taking the credit and as I said he only put his foot in his mouth because of a negative remark about the quality of the scene.

I am very familiar with authors sharing. Hell Lovecraft had an entire circle that fed off of him. Couple of guys even did okay. Robert Bloch, Robert Howard, Clark Ashton Smith (I want to say August Derleth but when HPL was gone he absolutely butchered the great old ones)

 

[3113]

Writing is the Job, so do the Writing

My question is that is it right to have someone write parts of your story? Well at least without acknowledging it? For the record the only reason he fessed was another comment that stated the fight sucked so he immediately threw the guy under the bus ...

I have had my editor send me back my work with suggested sentences here and there and once or twice a suggested re write of an entire paragraph but I can't conceive of letting someone write one or two entire pages of a story. Just wondering what the consensus on this would be.

Well, ethics in writing is pretty gray and muddy, especially when it comes to editing. Just look at Hemmingway and Gertrude Stein. If not for Gertrude there, Hemmingway's signature style would have never been, but she wasn't the one went through WWI, attended the bullfights or visited Africa, so we can't say she wrote even parts of Hemmingway. Yet she did have a profound influence.

Then there's Frankenstein the "preface" to which very likely was written by Mary's husband Percy. I don't think we'd disrespect Mary for that or even for not giving credit to him for that opening bit.

Then there's your example. I think it's too simplistic to say, "if you can't write it don't." This works for not writing a gay erotica story if you can't, or stories that are all action if you're not good at action stories. But if you need a fight in the middle of your story--just one fight--well, there's nothing wrong, I think, with getting help.

In the end, I'm not sure this is about ethics so much as it's about two other things:
(1) Writers that want to write genres they love to read, but aren't good at writing. Walter Mosley writes awesome Mysteries which he certainly loves. But he also loves Sci-fi. He wrote a sci-fi. It was AWFUL and he, wisely, hasn't written any more. But there are writers who, as you point out here, have the arrogance to think themselves destined to write something they just can't write. Any writer of action stories, who is no good at writing action to the point where they need someone else to write those scenes--for which they take credit--has a serious narcissism problem and can't be trusted .

(2) The writer is not doing their job. A writer should be able to do more than write a successful story. They should also be able to learn--to some extent--what they need to be able to write to complete a story. Maybe you don't know how to write a gay erotica story. But if you absolutely needed a gay erotic *scene* in a story, you presumably could learn how to write one that would suffice for that story. How would you do it? You'd read examples, get help and advice from people who wrote gay erotica, and, like your editor, would ask such experts to tell you what wasn't working and why, and what was working and why. You'd rewrite it till your editors gave it a thumbs up. Because that is your job. To find a way to write what needs to be written to make your story the best it can be.

Now this doesn't mean that having written that scene you'd suddenly start writing gay erotica or that if you did, you'd be good at it. However, writers shouldn't be afraid to try new things, experiment, grow, and even attempt what they're "not good at" so long as they don't head into Point #1 territory. Mosley could probably put a science fiction writer into a mystery, and show us excerpts from his books, and we'd be just fine with that. That doesn't mean he could or should write science fiction. Likewise, a writer who isn't great at fight scenes doesn't have to learn how to write them well enough to author Fightclub II, but, if they're going to call themselves a writer, they should be able to find a way to do it well enough for a scene in a book.

That is, after all, part of the job description isn't it?

 

[3113]

I've gotten some help with stories. I value it greatly and will put that acknowledgement in the heading any time I post it. Heck, C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien used to meet and work on each other's novels. I'm not going to put myself above them.

Are you saying that Tolkien wrote paragraphs of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe or that Lewis wrote up, say that marvelous paragraph about the weeping willows in Fellowship? As Lovecraft pointed out, the two really aren't synonymous.

Out of curiosity, if you suck at writing fighting scenes, why are you writing about fighting?

Likely because the person loves action stories and while they're aware they're no good at fight scenes, can't give up their dream of writing such stories. The person doesn't want to write anything else, so they "cheat." Just like anyone else who wants to be a "X" but hasn't the talent to do it without cheating.

 

[3113]

Personally I feel my fight scenes come out fairly well. I am a third degree black belt in Kenpo so have a very good feel of the flow of a fight.

I'm afraid that doesn't mean you can write fight scenes--I'm not accusing you here; I haven't read your scenes and they might be excellent, I'm just pointing out that knowing how fights flow or how to properly block punches or deliver them doesn't mean a person can write an exciting, visceral, realistic fight scene. It only means they'll be a good judge of how realistic a fight scene reads.

To write a good fight scene, you have to know which words work for fights, suggesting the energy rather than stopping the it; what to describe and what to leave out to get across key moments. You have to know that short sentences speed things up, and long ones slow things down, and which words have onomonopia power so the reader can "hear" the punches as well as see them. You have to use a whole different skill set in addition to your knowledge of fighting, your skill at writing.

You know this, I'm sure. Writing up a fight move by move isn't going to get a reader in there feeling the hits, feeling their heart pounding and their muscles tensing and their energy notching or flagging, anymore than describing sex move by move is going to arouse the reader. Writing good anything is not just knowing that anything, it's knowing how to describe it so that the person feel they are taking part in it. Yes?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Read Jack London's A PIECE OF STEAK for the real feel of a fight.

http://www.jacklondons.net/apieceofsteak.html

 

[lovecraft68]

Well, ethics in writing is pretty gray and muddy, especially when it comes to editing. Just look at Hemmingway and Gertrude Stein. If not for Gertrude there, Hemmingway's signature style would have never been, but she wasn't the one went through WWI, attended the bullfights or visited Africa, so we can't say she wrote even parts of Hemmingway. Yet she did have a profound influence.

Then there's Frankenstein the "preface" to which very likely was written by Mary's husband Percy. I don't think we'd disrespect Mary for that or even for not giving credit to him for that opening bit.

Then there's your example. I think it's too simplistic to say, "if you can't write it don't." This works for not writing a gay erotica story if you can't, or stories that are all action if you're not good at action stories. But if you need a fight in the middle of your story--just one fight--well, there's nothing wrong, I think, with getting help.

In the end, I'm not sure this is about ethics so much as it's about two other things:
(1) Writers that want to write genres they love to read, but aren't good at writing. Walter Mosley writes awesome Mysteries which he certainly loves. But he also loves Sci-fi. He wrote a sci-fi. It was AWFUL and he, wisely, hasn't written any more. But there are writers who, as you point out here, have the arrogance to think themselves destined to write something they just can't write. Any writer of action stories, who is no good at writing action to the point where they need someone else to write those scenes--for which they take credit--has a serious narcissism problem and can't be trusted .

(2) The writer is not doing their job. A writer should be able to do more than write a successful story. They should also be able to learn--to some extent--what they need to be able to write to complete a story. Maybe you don't know how to write a gay erotica story. But if you absolutely needed a gay erotic *scene* in a story, you presumably could learn how to write one that would suffice for that story. How would you do it? You'd read examples, get help and advice from people who wrote gay erotica, and, like your editor, would ask such experts to tell you what wasn't working and why, and what was working and why. You'd rewrite it till your editors gave it a thumbs up. Because that is your job. To find a way to write what needs to be written to make your story the best it can be.

Now this doesn't mean that having written that scene you'd suddenly start writing gay erotica or that if you did, you'd be good at it. However, writers shouldn't be afraid to try new things, experiment, grow, and even attempt what they're "not good at" so long as they don't head into Point #1 territory. Mosley could probably put a science fiction writer into a mystery, and show us excerpts from his books, and we'd be just fine with that. That doesn't mean he could or should write science fiction. Likewise, a writer who isn't great at fight scenes doesn't have to learn how to write them well enough to author Fightclub II, but, if they're going to call themselves a writer, they should be able to find a way to do it well enough for a scene in a book.

That is, after all, part of the job description isn't it?

Wow that's a lot of typing! Did you do that yourself? Just kidding. The point you make about if you absolutely had to you would. How good it came out would be in question but to me if you can say you gave it an honest effort then that's a big part of it.

Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. I mentioned that I am not so hot with Lesbian sex but muddled through a scene because the sister is bi sexual and instead of tap dancing around her break up with her former lover I tossed the challenge to myself and went for some girl/girl action. I got mixed reviews on it but what the hell. Funny thing is ten chapters later, the masochist in me put myself back in the same situation and this time I got a few decent compliments on it so I must have learned something.

I think if this guy just had to have a fight scene he should have done it himself. I mean we are not looking at sales here so what id the worst that can happen? He could get a few negative comments or the idiot could expose himself and get called a fraud by a half a dozen trolls.

I ma coming up on this dilemma myself. Everyone here is more than aware of my feelings towards Rape/non consent stories. Well in an upcoming chapter there will be a rape scene. I am writing it for shock value not arousal I am hoping to gain sympathetic reactions for the woman and negative for the Male character. I have no doubt however I will get a few "she had it coming remarks."

This will not be easy fro me but it has been in my outline since day one and I won;t back down. I could as no one knows what's coming but me but this is my vision and I will have to give it a shot. I certainly am not going to go to an author like "SethP" who writes some really hardcore non consent stories and say "Hey Seth here's the set up do this up for me."

My story means my story. Maybe I'll get a buzz first. No scratch that last time I posted while buzzed I told everyone I had a foot fetish.

At the end I'm thinking that maybe it was just something to see this cocky prick nail himself to the wall like that.

We have many of the same fans and I am now fighting the urge to put a disclaimer at the top of my story;
"All sex, dialogue, and the fight scene in this chapter are written by yours truly.

matter of fact I was debating tossing the fight scene in my next chapter now I am keeping it in there and really going to jazz it up with at least 6-8 people involved in it. Doesn't everyone love a good bar room brawl?

 

[3113]

Wow that's a lot of typing! Did you do that yourself?

Naw. sr7 wrote it for me

 

[lovecraft68]

Naw. sr7 wrote it for me

You're lying! If he had he would have mentioned himself repeatedly!

 

[ishtat]

The Croxley Master.

Read Jack London's A PIECE OF STEAK for the real feel of a fight.

http://www.jacklondons.net/apieceofsteak.html

Written at about the same time was Arthur Conan Doyle's The Croxley Master

This style is as British as London's is American, and Conan Doyle writes from the opposite point of view; the younger, amateur?, gentleman -- though necessarily impoverished fighter.

Both are master story tellers and whilst London has more substance, Conan Doyle has more (though dated) style.

www.en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Croxley_Master

Both are great reads.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm afraid that doesn't mean you can write fight scenes--I'm not accusing you here; I haven't read your scenes and they might be excellent, I'm just pointing out that knowing how fights flow or how to properly block punches or deliver them doesn't mean a person can write an exciting, visceral, realistic fight scene. It only means they'll be a good judge of how realistic a fight scene reads.

To write a good fight scene, you have to know which words work for fights, suggesting the energy rather than stopping the it; what to describe and what to leave out to get across key moments. You have to know that short sentences speed things up, and long ones slow things down, and which words have onomonopia power so the reader can "hear" the punches as well as see them. You have to use a whole different skill set in addition to your knowledge of fighting, your skill at writing.

You know this, I'm sure. Writing up a fight move by move isn't going to get a reader in there feeling the hits, feeling their heart pounding and their muscles tensing and their energy notching or flagging, anymore than describing sex move by move is going to arouse the reader. Writing good anything is not just knowing that anything, it's knowing how to describe it so that the person feel they are taking part in it. Yes?

Writing a fight scene is of course not about technical descriptions as in "I pivoted and threw a right back thrust kick" you lose people with that. It is about the blows of course but also about the surroundings, the dialogue (in my main fight scene the far superior fighter is taunting the other) the reactions to the blows as much as anything else as well. It has to have a realistic feel to it. Describing an old Bruce Lee film with ridiculously unrealistic moves would come out terrible.

Kenpo is a fun style to write about. There are of course kicks but Kenpo means "open hand" and is primarily based on blocks and very short effective punches a much flashier style of boxing almost so easy to slip into a fight scene without being unrealistic.

You know the martial arts movies are of course exaggerated trust me one spin kick to the face from a guy wearing boots you are going down and most likely staying there. (just like in the Rocky fights no one takes that beating no one)

One of the best choreographed action movies-as crazy as this sounds- was Roadhouse. Seriously watch Swayze's moves. Short, quick and right in the opponents face. No Claude Van Damme crap.

Besides I'm not saying mine are great, I feel they are solid I have gotten good feedback on them. But at the end of the day what matters is that I wrote them not my editor or some other author.

Although for the record when I decide I am looking to bore someone to death I may be looking up JBJ.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Real fights are short, very short. First blow landed wins.

 

[lovecraft68]

Real fights are short, very short. First blow landed wins.

Especially if it is a sucker shot. For the record I have never used "formal" karate in a street fight. Punks and red necks and drunks do not behave in predictable patterns. It's about speed, reflexes and as you said getting in the first real good shot.

I have seen extremely proficient "tournament fighters" get their asses handed to them by guys in a bar parking lot. Knowing it and being willing to use what you know are different things.

With what I know if a fight lasts more than thirty to sixty seconds I am going to lose (and should). I am 5'7" and all of 170 if they get me on the ground I'm done. So it's short and sweet or a trip to the emergency room.

 

[estragon]

Read Jack London's A PIECE OF STEAK for the real feel of a fight.

http://www.jacklondons.net/apieceofsteak.html

JBJ, unfair! London makes everyone else look sick.

 

[3113]

Real fights are short, very short. First blow landed wins.

If they land a blow! I remember this fight breaking out between two like nineteen year olds and it was a mess. They knocked over chairs and flailed away at each other and no one got in a winning anything. A bigger guy broke it up and that was that. It was, at best, silly looking.

I think a lot of guys want to pretend they know how to fight, but if the real thing comes around they're either on the ground getting kicked or, if they're somewhat equal, do what these guys did. Flail ineffectively away at each other.

 

[sr71plt]

Especially if it is a sucker shot. For the record I have never used "formal" karate in a street fight. Punks and red necks and drunks do not behave in predictable patterns. It's about speed, reflexes and as you said getting in the first real good shot.

I have seen extremely proficient "tournament fighters" get their asses handed to them by guys in a bar parking lot. Knowing it and being willing to use what you know are different things.

With what I know if a fight lasts more than thirty to sixty seconds I am going to lose (and should). I am 5'7" and all of 170 if they get me on the ground I'm done. So it's short and sweet or a trip to the emergency room.

Every paragraph a repeated litany of "I."

 

[lovecraft68]

If they land a blow! I remember this fight breaking out between two like nineteen year olds and it was a mess. They knocked over chairs and flailed away at each other and no one got in a winning anything. A bigger guy broke it up and that was that. It was, at best, silly looking.

I think a lot of guys want to pretend they know how to fight, but if the real thing comes around they're either on the ground getting kicked or, if they're somewhat equal, do what these guys did. Flail ineffectively away at each other.

That's not limited to kids! Last fight I saw was a month ago at a dart tournament guys staggered around like idiots swinging and missing then one literally jumps on the other and they roll around on the floor.

You are right not many really know how to fight and honestly it's easier to be the one defending yourself then a throwing the first punch. They usually throw the "redneck roundhouse" that really big swing favored by big slobs. All you need to do is step to the side and trip them or step inside and knee them in the nuts.

Think karate is glorious? First thing we were taught is "balls and eyes"

Sort of funny story last year. My seventeen year old daughter was being harassed by an 18 year old boy. Went to the teachers etc... he started bugging her after school and grabbed her, she punched him then challenged him to fight her.

The jerk actually swings at her and she proceeds to throw him over her shoulder and start pounding on him while he's on the ground. Sorry forgot to add she was a brown belt at the time. She takes her test for black in two months.

Now of course here I am in the principles office listening to both kids are suspended. her for a week him for two because he started it. I'm not arguing that fact I suppose she could have walked away or maybe didn't have to really pound him.

Principle is concerned that I am not concerned I simply say that seeing the school wasn't helping her she had to do what was necessary and I had no issue with her doing it.

The other kids father is there and says that well now he can see where my maniac daughter gets it from. My reply was it tales a hell of a man to raise a boy to swing at a girl. Long story short, right out in front of the school, in the exact same spot as my daughters fight I end up knocking the guy out.

When my daughter went back to school her girlfriend gave her to plastic wrestling belts she bought at the toy store one with her name one with mine proclaiming us the Johnston High Tag Team champions. Some how my wife found non of this amusing. The six months of anger management was a bit annoying but oh well. In case your wondering he swung first. I'm not allowed to that whole stupid "registered weapon crap" Please.

 

[lovecraft68]

Every paragraph a repeated litany of "I."

"I" learned it from you!

P.S. feel like writing some gay male stuff for me? I'll take credit for it unless it sucks then I will throw you under the bus.

 

[sr71plt]

"I" learned it from you!

P.S. feel like writing some gay male stuff for me? I'll take credit for it unless it sucks then I will throw you under the bus.

You didn't need to learn the art of the irrelevant jab from me. You've done this repeatedly on this thread without my participation at all. The funny thing is that no one is more "I, I, I" in large chunks of self-obsession on this forum than you are.

And, no, I've already told you that I don't think you'd have a clue about either writing or reading gay male. You're too self-absorbed--and shallow.

 

[Weird Harold]

My question is that is it right to have someone write parts of your story? Well at least without acknowledging it?

That would depend mostly on what the author/editor of the parts you didn't write wants; assuming the author/editor knows your using his words.

In my case, when I was volunteer editing, I explicitly requested I NOT be credited for anythng I added to a story. I seldom added enough to rise to the level of "co-authorship," but even where I did I preferred no acknowledgement.

The ethical violation, if any would be in using another's work without permission or against the author's wishes, not in the acknowledgment or lack thereof.

 

[estragon]

Written at about the same time was Arthur Conan Doyle's The Croxley Master

This style is as British as London's is American, and Conan Doyle writes from the opposite point of view; the younger, amateur?, gentleman -- though necessarily impoverished fighter.

Both are master story tellers and whilst London has more substance, Conan Doyle has more (though dated) style.

www.en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Croxley_Master

Both are great reads.

Ishtat, Indeed they are. And here is a piece of vintage Conan Doyle, from that story. It's utterly typical of Doyle: "Warped with labour and twisted by toil, bent double by week-long work in the cramped coal galleries or half-blinded with years spent in front of white-hot fluid metal, these men still gilded their harsh and hopeless lives by their devotion to sport. It was their one relief, the only thing which could distract their minds from sordid surroundings, and give them an interest beyond the blackened circle which enclosed them. Literature, art, science, all these things were beyond their horizon; but the race, the football match, the cricket, the fight, these were things which they could understand, which they could speculate upon in advance and comment upon afterwards. Sometimes brutal, sometimes grotesque, the love of sport is still one of the great agencies which make for the happiness of our people. It lies very deeply in the springs of our nature, and when it has been educated out, a higher, more refined nature may be left, but it will not be of that robust British type which has left its mark so deeply on the world. Every one of these raddled workers, slouching with his dog at his heels to see something of the fight, was a true unit of his race."

 

[estragon]

Back to the main topic, credit (or lack thereof) should be agreed upon in advance between author and any collaborator, be it editor, co-author, kibitzer, whatever. Nothing unethical about having a co-author who does not want to be credited. Mary Francis was an integral part of Dick Francis' novels until the day of her death, yet never sought acknowledgment.

If agreed, no problem with either acknowledgment or non-acknowledgment. Failing to acknowledge assistance in breach of an agreement is unethical.