Is it cheating?

[OT]

Must a poem stand completely on it's own, or is it appropriate to provide an introductory line or two to "set the stage" ?

As a for instance -- I wrote Disbelief with a Dr. Seuss-ish reading in mind.
(If you read it in the voice of an indignant Sneetch, I think it reads pretty well)

It was actually born out of anger, but the disagreement was (and still is) so darn ridiculous, that as I was writing it I went the humorous route to vent.

So now that you know what I had in mind, does it read any better?

Maybe to rephrase the question: How much does the "intent" affect the reading of a piece? And is it cheating to give the reader a hint outside the text of the poem?

Words on a page (as evidenced by the invention of smiley faces ) are oft times misinterpreted and by themselves, may not accurately convey the speakers "voice".

Oh, and as long as I have your attention, if you read Disbelief , how was the meter and rhythm? When I read it to myself, I subconsciously group the stanzas in pairs to make the rant/can't, true/view me/agree and head/said rhymes read better.

OK, I'll go now.

 

[HomerPindar]

I, personally, have thought that my enjoyment of poetry has been greatly enhanced by knowing something about poetry. Knowing that a sonnet can have certain structural restrictions makes it all that more amazing when someone turns one out in perfect form.

With that said, I think the rhyming scheme you use lends itself to the seuss-ish tone right from the start, even the pretzel way you twist the first lines strikes me as seuss-ish. also, the humor/suess-ish (is that even a word?) approach already dispells - to me anyways - the thought that it's written about a conflict being taken seriously.

HomerPindar

 

[LdyOnyx]

Just read Disbelief....

The rythum flowed very smoothly...I agree, very Dr. Seuss-ish..Very sarcastic as well...I enjoyed the unlimited expression you presented in this piece; confusion...irritation..demanding an explaination...(hehe...)


Poetry is the ulitmate outlet of such feelings...And you definately delivered the goods...

LdyOnyx

 

[WickedEve]

I like it, OT. The rhythm is good for me. It's quick and fun to read. Even if you had not mentioned Seuss, it would have still been an enjoyable read.
When I write a poem that I feel needs some explanation, I try to squeeze some info into the title. In some cases it may help to put a little note at the top of a poem, but I think it's best to keep it brief and let the poem tell as much as possible.

 

[HomerPindar]

I do remember submitting, and reposting on another thread, a sestina that I included alot of extra information in order to help make sense of it, but I'm not even sure it was nessary, I just wanted to explain myself. Or show off, I'm not sure which...

Pi in Hades << here's the poem in case you wanna compare, the notes are at the bottom.

HomerPindar

 

[OT]

Thanks Eve, LdyOnyx, and Homer, I'm boldly declaring "Seuss-ish" to be a word

There have been a number of rants about formatting and how some poets think that it is an integral part of their piece.

Perhaps an apt analogy (for at least part of my point) might be movie writing and directing. The director can make mediocre writing shine, or ruin a masterpiece. Furthermore, many memorable lines were made famous by context and delivery.

So back to poetry, I'm often torn. On the one hand there is simply letting a poem go and let the reader have his/her way with it (hey -- what you do with my writing in the privacy of your own room is um... none of my business

I'm also fan of subtle and dry. Half the fun of reading is the discovery.

On the other hand, I "worry" that the reader won't get it. I want to reach out and smack them if they fail to put feeling in all the right spots or put pauses where none were intended. I long to explain ad-nauseam exactly what I meant and how they ought to read it.

Perhaps the "Disbelief" example was a poor one. I'd hope the phrasing and structure was enough to let the reader know it wasn't meant as a heart wrenching angst ridden ode. But at the risk of beating this poor dead horsey just a bit more... I was tempted to put a note about Seuss or Sneetches in the intro, but decided that that would be stepping over the line.

Do you worry about readers not getting your writing?
(not missing the point completely; More along the lines of overlooking a subtle nuance that you may have slaved over?)

 

[LdyOnyx]

God yes...
Some of my piece are so misread that I tend to lose the interest of my readers....Poetry doesn't always make sense...It is there to free the soul...to express the heart...Sometimes it is but a jumble of words scratched down on paper.(sometimes, declared out loud..)

You are your worse critic, O.T....

I love to write, and yet, I still don't understand poem structure...so you are way above my head...

I don't think you should worry too much about your readers...
they'll feed off your words and will ponder them long after this thread is gone...this is the effect all poets lust after...Longevity.

LdyOnyx

 

[Angeline]

Seuss and Stuff

OT said:

Must a poem stand completely on it's own, or is it appropriate to provide an introductory line or two to "set the stage" ?

OT, I think your poem does stand on its own and furthermore I think that most of the time all writers, either consciously or not, borrow other writers' style or ideas. At first maybe we do this more, then maybe an amalgam of styles that eventually--seasoned with an individual's own experiences--becomes a writer's own unique voice. (Unless you're Smithpeter, in which case I theorize you're just born that way.) So that's learning, right? Growth? How could it be anything less than ok?

And Dr. Seuss is so cool! Such a subversive! I personally love The Sneetches and Yertle the Turtle. (And anyone who wants to hear Sneetches, just call and I'll recite it--I have it memorized, the whole thing. Know why? I read it aloud 4.3 billion times.)

Do you worry about readers not getting your writing?
(not missing the point completely; More along the lines of overlooking a subtle nuance that you may have slaved over?)

I worry about this not at all because usually the more subtle references in my poems are very personal and really only there for me. Selfish maybe, but they're my little secret jokes with myself.

 

[OT]

I'll see your 4.3 billion Sneetches and raise you 5 billion "Hop On Pops"

"Sad Dad Bad Had
Dad is sad.
Very very sad.
He had a bad day.
What a day dad had."
"... Stop! Do not hop on pop"
--Dr. Seuss

(Me and the good Dr. must've had the same boss. )

-----------

LdyOnyx said:
"don't worry about your readers..."

If you've lost the reader, ponder and longevity are sorta out the window, yes?



and Angeline said:
"I worry about this not at all ..."

Me thinks you are fibbing (just a bit).
A little bit of mystery is a good thing and adds to the pleasure.
(e.g." mmm, do I detect just a hint of oregano in that sauce?" )

Too much mystery and you're back into the purging the soul category:
Healthy for the writer, not so much for the reader.
(e.g. Using up leftovers makes for a clean fridge, but not so yummy sauce)

(Apologies for the food analogies -- it's my night to cook and I've sauce on the brain)

 

[Angeline]

Seuss Wars

All the rest of the day on those wild screaming beaches, the fix-it-up chappie kept fixing up sneetches. On again, off again, in again, out again, through the machine they raced round and about again. Changing their stars every moment or two, they kept paying money, they kept racing through until neither the plain nor the star-bellied knew whether this one was that one or that one was this one or what one was which one or which one was who. And when every last cent of their money was spent, the fix-it-up chappie packed up and he went. And he laughed as he drove in his car down the beach: "Oh they never will learn, no you can't teach a sneetch." But McBean was quite wrong for I'm happy to say that the Sneetches got really quite smart on that day. The day they discovered that Sneetches are Sneetches and no kind of Sneetch is the best on the beaches.

From The Sneetches by Dr. Seuss


That was outta my head. I don't even know where the book is anymore.


So I win cause my quote is longer and more complicated and you have to say the following three times fast.

Through three cheese trees three free fleas flew.
While these fleas flew, freezy breeze blew.
Freezy breeze made these three trees freeze.
Freezy trees made these trees' cheese freeze.
That's what made these three free fleas sneeze.

from Fox in Sox by Dr. Seuss

 

[OT]

I give. you win

"the pale green pants" -- that one was scary!
And SunnySnim from Too many Daves .... classic.

 

[LdyOnyx]

I said....

"I don't think you should worry too much about your readers..."

this does not mean completely leaving them in the dust...No, I was merely stating that you should be the one satisfied with your work.

Its your life, your experiences...You shouldn't have to conform to anyones expectations...or something like that....

LdyOnyx

 

[OT]

I said....

"I don't think you should worry too much about your readers..."

oops, sorry. See, I'm just like all those scary readers out there that I'm afraid of ... can't be trusted to understand, even when the writer writes plainy

 

[LdyOnyx]

honestly, you're too hard on yourself...Your poem was exceptional...

"...and that's all I have to say about that..."


LdyOnyx

 

[Angeline]

Seuss Redux

I just sat down with my daughter and reread Too Many Daves! What a great poem!

"One Buffalo Bill and one Biffalo Buff." lol


And speaking of his influence on one's poetry, OT, if you look at my poems Spaced Out and Neal (which is NOT about _Land, lol), you'll see that he looms large in my style.

 

[OT]

honestly, you're too hard on yourself...Your poem was exceptional...

Thanks (actually, thank you very much ), but just for the record, I was mostly musing about how much context an author should provide to help readers understand a poem, and how much you ought to worry about how a reader will interpret your poem. I just happened to pick on this one as a fer-instance.

I'm mostly reasonably pleased with most of my submissions (but worry about them anyway)

 

[OT]

Re: Seuss Redux

I just sat down with my daughter and reread Too Many Daves! What a great poem!

ahhh, isn't it great to revisit the classics

... and did she giggle when she heard her mom say Oliver Boliver Butt ? That one used to send my boys into fits.

 

[Angeline]

She giggles alot

She's 10, which appears to be a highly giggly age. Actually the other book I remember reading a gazillion times--especially to my son--was Oscar's Rotten Birthday, a very cool story wherein all the Sesame Street characters give Oscar a surprise party. He gets trash, a bunch of broken stuff, and a mudcake. There was a part where Grover gives Oscar a bouquet of stinkweed that always made my son laugh like a little fool. Now he's reading Machiavelli. What the hell happened?

 

[HomerPindar]

Re: She giggles alot

She's 10, which appears to be a highly giggly age. Actually the other book I remember reading a gazillion times--especially to my son--was Oscar's Rotten Birthday, a very cool story wherein all the Sesame Street characters give Oscar a surprise party. He gets trash, a bunch of broken stuff, and a mudcake. There was a part where Grover gives Oscar a bouquet of stinkweed that always made my son laugh like a little fool. Now he's reading Machiavelli. What the hell happened?

Oscar-grouch-trash
Machiavelli-grouch-trash

Where's the problem?

HomerPindar

 

[damppanties]

Must a poem stand completely on it's own, or is it appropriate to provide an introductory line or two to "set the stage" ?

I know what you're talking about. Whenever people are reading my poems (not the ones submitted on Lit. ), I have this overwhelming urge to hang over their shoulders and point out certain things I am sure they won't be seeing as I see them. I usually do it too...

I was mostly musing about how much context an author should provide to help readers understand a poem, and how much you ought to worry about how a reader will interpret your poem.

I guess you shouldn't ram it down their throats but just a general reference to something more clear than what is already in the poem is okay according to me. Did this help?