Is, "Hetero", innate and natural?

[amicus]

Gloriann...

"...could you explain to me why you don't think gays should get married?.."

~~~

"Marriage", is defined as between a man and a woman and functions as a means to provide a foundation for a family.

Same sex marriages do not offer that or the, 'kinship' lineage of a genetic line from both parents.

Most people have no objections to same sex couples cohabiting and there are, as I understand it, legal statutes to give court power to such associations that wish to be legally bound.

Amicus

 

[amicus]

Ami asks "Is, "Hetero", innate and natural?"

The answer is...of course.

And as medical science progresses it looks like it also holds true for homosexuality.

As such, since homosexuality is a subset, but not a choice or a disorder, society then must decide how to address gays, which it is now doing.

I will wager that within ten years middle America will accept the gays already closeted in their conservative churches. In time we'll find something else to gnash our teeth about.

~~~

Saying that it is not a choice or a disorder doesn't make it so, especially since most of the rational world holds it as such. It should come as no surprise ot anyone, the upsurge in same sex couples considering the pressure of the feminist movement that has alienated the sexes and forced people to look to same sex relationships to fill the void.

I will oppose your wage and say that in ten years the 'Gay' movement will be a thing of the past and Gay marriage not even a matter of discussion. Since 29 or 30 State, by a vote of the people, have banned Gay Marriage, it will be unanimous by the end of the next decade.

Amicus

 

[gloriann]

I'm certain are many many gay and lesbian couples out there who have raised beautiful, wonderful healthy children that would argue that their foundation was just as strong as any others.

And yes, in terms of cohabitation, there are laws we can follow and take advantage of. None of my civil union or domestic partnership laws are recognized federally. Taking advantage of those laws may or may not ensure insurance coverage, medical coverage, health rights, etc, should I or my partner take ill. I may actually not be allowed in the hospital room to see her. Not to mention the fact that I can't, like so many others, take joy and pride in my society's legal acceptance of my relationship, a rite of passage, a tradition and ritual that so many people dream of. I don't get to have that dream.

 

[amicus]

I'm certain are many many gay and lesbian couples out there who have raised beautiful, wonderful healthy children that would argue that their foundation was just as strong as any others.

And yes, in terms of cohabitation, there are laws we can follow and take advantage of. None of my civil union or domestic partnership laws are recognized federally. Taking advantage of those laws may or may not ensure insurance coverage, medical coverage, health rights, etc, should I or my partner take ill. I may actually not be allowed in the hospital room to see her. Not to mention the fact that I can't, like so many others, take joy and pride in my society's legal acceptance of my relationship, a rite of passage, a tradition and ritual that so many people dream of. I don't get to have that dream.

~~~

I am not 'certain' as you are, but it is possible although I think, very difficult. Just how two women could raise a boy child, or two men could raise a girl child, without the 'same sex aura' influencing them, is questionable to me.

It is true a same sex couple will not enjoy all the benefits of an opposite sex marriage; is that not the choice one makes when committing to a same sex liaison?

Although it is not an argument I have offered there are those who insist that same sex marriage opens the gates to marriages of three or more people seeking those self same benefit of which you speak.

Neither you nor I will decide this issue; it will be at the ballot box or by legislation, hopefully not in the courts.

Amicus

 

[gloriann]

You're right, we won't decide this, it will again be decided at the ballot box. I'll be the one with the history of civil rights behind me.

 

[Dragonlipz]

~~~

Saying that it is not a choice or a disorder doesn't make it so, especially since most of the rational world holds it as such. It should come as no surprise ot anyone, the upsurge in same sex couples considering the pressure of the feminist movement that has alienated the sexes and forced people to look to same sex relationships to fill the void.

I will oppose your wage and say that in ten years the 'Gay' movement will be a thing of the past and Gay marriage not even a matter of discussion. Since 29 or 30 State, by a vote of the people, have banned Gay Marriage, it will be unanimous by the end of the next decade.

Amicus

Once again you demonstrate a remarkable propensity to spin the truth......Gay Marriage will be a non-issue in a very few years.....only cavemen and inbreds worry about who marries who.....our children will teach us the truth and reality....it doesn't concern them, they could give a shit less....So rant and rail about your tired ass ethics and so called culture.....
"The times, they are a'changin" - poet/bard of the last millenieum........
dig that

 

[xssve]

Russia's PRAVDA newspaper calls a MODERATE REPUBLICAN 'Someone who answers meekly, OK, when you suggest that America ought to be beneath the boots of Marxists."

As opposed to licking them like a "real man"?

 

[xssve]

You morons are making it a courts issue Amicus, and you'll lose because it's an equal protection issue - you know, that piece of paper - the Constitution?

Even your packed court will go against you because they know you'll all bust blood vessel and vote republican in droves in your blind desire to avenge yourselves against the meek and powerless.

 

[amicus]

You have it assbackwards, xxssve, it is the 'gay' community that is seeking the change, not mainstream America.

Regardless of how you phrase it, empathy, civil rights, pick your poison, you are trying to force the majority to accept a minority position and while minorities are protected under our Constitution, they do not rule.

It is a fine ploy to attempt to bundle gay rights under the umbrella of civil rights, but homosexuality remains and will always remain a fringe activity, a 'bohemian' pursuit, as I described earlier, and never become part of any mainstream social arrangement.

The aggressive continuance of the gay rights movement will suffer a backlash and things will perhaps be worse than before and you will have that on your conscience.

Amicus

 

[gloriann]

For a woman with such a large vocabulary, you are hopelessly unenlightened.

 

[amicus]

Glorianna...my current avatar is of Kate Maberly who was the child star in, "The Secret Garden", a film I shared with my children and grand children, many times.

Fortunately, I am a male, Type A, Chauvinist Male Pig uber ego sort with an education and a liberal sense of the finer things in life, which drives the liberal left ladies nuts on this forum.

I am not the least bit unenlightened, even in your sexist opinion. This is a core issue with two well divided, polar positions, and yours is by far the weaker one.

I have no tolerance for the homosexual movement, it is a genetic dead end and serves only to satisfy the hedonistic pursuits of a minority of Bohemian outcasts, along with drug addicts, prostitutes and other starving artists who think they all deserve support and sustenance from a 'nanny State', that taxes those who produce to support those who are parasites on the system.

Although we hold opposite opinions, I hold no malice towards you as each is welcome to his/her own opinion. In this disagreement, as with most I participate in, I reject the emotional, empathetic approach and strive for a rational, objective point of view.

It is the nature of the beast to procreate heterosexually and all of nature and all of the kinship patterns of all of all societies confirms this. You and your cohorts are welcome to occupy whatever niche you desire, just keep out of the mainstream of society.

Amicus

 

[gloriann]

a) It's Gloriann, -a
b) Pardon my ignorance for not recognizing your avatar
c) I will correct myself, for a man with such a large vocabulary, you are hopelessly unenlightened
d) We are already in mainstream society, open your eyes. We're everywhere!

 

[Dragonlipz]

You have it assbackwards, xxssve, it is the 'gay' community that is seeking the change, not mainstream America.

Regardless of how you phrase it, empathy, civil rights, pick your poison, you are trying to force the majority to accept a minority position and while minorities are protected under our Constitution, they do not rule.

It is a fine ploy to attempt to bundle gay rights under the umbrella of civil rights, but homosexuality remains and will always remain a fringe activity, a 'bohemian' pursuit, as I described earlier, and never become part of any mainstream social arrangement.

The aggressive continuance of the gay rights movement will suffer a backlash and things will perhaps be worse than before and you will have that on your conscience.

Amicus

Mon Ami,
You are bassakwards on this and the sad truth is: you know it......
The gay community is only seeking 'equality' ......as a 'social' pursuit......your inbred characterization of gay folk only clarifies how stunted your world view and intelligence is.....I only ask those who read my words to read yours that they may understand how inhibited and challenged you truly are.......
Who marries who is not a case for the courts, it IS a matter of the heart.....only those whose intelligence can grasp a world view for the present day can admit what truth there is in those words - words that are true do not need ink or iron to write them.....
I know that you have good in you, I can feel it......(there's a movie quote there, somewhere)

 

[Dragonlipz]

a) It's Gloriann, -a
b) Pardon my ignorance for not recognizing your avatar
c) I will correct myself, for a man with such a large vocabulary, you are hopelessly unenlightened
d) We are already in mainstream society, open your eyes. We're everywhere!

True, true and more true.....the Ami has a large, vacuous vocabulary that cannot disguise the fact that he has no: ideas, original thoughts, or _______________! (fill in the blank)

He doesn't have to open his eyes, he's trying to drive.......

He's also still trying to figure out where President Obama's birth certificate is....

For that matter, he's still trying to get used to the idea that a half black man is President of these United States of America......I'm sure it keeps him up at night.....

He muses and opines about the 1950's a helluva lot.....not the real 50's but the 'Father Knows Best' crap that was a joke then and now....he thinks it's real......The sad truth is: it never was and never will be except as a celluiod fantasy.....

Pity the Ami, he knows not what he do.........

 

[Isid]

Ami, be my "guy hag" ... that way we can hang out together, go to happy hour, look at all the women and discuss the pros and cons of each... and we can argue politics and and sexuality and god and religion... and we will have to learn to agree to disagree...

 

[amicus]

I have a book of poetry in my daughter's hands, arranging and collating my thoughts from visiting Haight-Ashbury, in San Francisco, during its' heyday and more glimpses of Greenwich Village, in New York City, along with Times Square and a hundred other places as this, 'Travelin' man' soaked up the scenes of the 'free love' generation and its' aftermath...a sad one.

I satiated myself in the opium dens of the City of Light, Paris, with the artists and sculptors and writers of the 'real' Bohemian's who had reason to challenge the Victorian era; vicariously, of course, as I am old, but not that old.

The 'free love' generation, was just a 'cop out', a turning away, a looking inward, a 'hope', of finding something there. They did not.

They did not find it in drugs or trippin' out, or in promiscuity, or in burning bra's or flags, they found nothing but each other and each with nothing to offer, but that, a communal whining, along with the spaced out music of a truly lost generation.

Having rejected all externalities and committed to turning inwards, the shock of finding nothing still reverberates through yet another generation; your children.

"Change is the only constant." I would attribute that if I knew to whom it belonged; but change is inevitable and the changes you seek have failed to materialize and something else is on the horizon, unbeknownst to you, yet edging ever closer.

Beware...



Amicus (waxing poetically this late eve...)

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

XSSVE

Same-sex marriage isnt an equal protection issue, its another permutation of affirmative action.

 

[Isid]

I have a book of poetry in my daughter's hands, arranging and collating my thoughts from visiting Haight-Ashbury, in San Francisco, during its' heyday and more glimpses of Greenwich Village, in New York City, along with Times Square and a hundred other places as this, 'Travelin' man' soaked up the scenes of the 'free love' generation and its' aftermath...a sad one.

I satiated myself in the opium dens of the City of Light, Paris, with the artists and sculptors and writers of the 'real' Bohemian's who had reason to challenge the Victorian era; vicariously, of course, as I am old, but not that old.

The 'free love' generation, was just a 'cop out', a turning away, a looking inward, a 'hope', of finding something there. They did not.

They did not find it in drugs or trippin' out, or in promiscuity, or in burning bra's or flags, they found nothing but each other and each with nothing to offer, but that, a communal whining, along with the spaced out music of a truly lost generation.

Having rejected all externalities and committed to turning inwards, the shock of finding nothing still reverberates through yet another generation; your children.

"Change is the only constant." I would attribute that if I knew to whom it belonged; but change is inevitable and the changes you seek have failed to materialize and something else is on the horizon, unbeknownst to you, yet edging ever closer.

Beware...



Amicus (waxing poetically this late eve...)

para 1... travelling man

para 2... drug man

para 3... free sex man

para 4... regretful man

para 5... regretful dad man

para 6... philosophical man

para 7... mentor man

All I asked was would you be my "hag man".

I take this as no.

Damn... gay men have their hag women ... so hard for a gay woman to find a "hag man". What's up with that?

 

[jomar]

~~~

Saying that it is not a choice or a disorder doesn't make it so, especially since most of the rational world holds it as such. It should come as no surprise ot anyone, the upsurge in same sex couples considering the pressure of the feminist movement that has alienated the sexes and forced people to look to same sex relationships to fill the void.

I will oppose your wage and say that in ten years the 'Gay' movement will be a thing of the past and Gay marriage not even a matter of discussion. Since 29 or 30 State, by a vote of the people, have banned Gay Marriage, it will be unanimous by the end of the next decade.

Amicus

Hi Ami...hope you are well...

Seems to me that if one is rational one accepts logic. Right? And if one accepts logic one accepts science. If one accepts science one increasingly accepts that homosexuality is not a choice or a disorder (according to the definition of a psychological disorder).

On the other hand, I spoke with a woman earlier this week She has basically disowned her 18 year old son since she found out he was gay a few months ago. This woman believes that all gays are pedophiles. She also thinks he is choosing his sexual orientation and that treatment will set him straight, as it were. That's not rationality, it's bias - and a lot of people think that way. For now.

Personally, I think the ideal family consists of a man and woman, in a healthy relationship, and the kids. But variations are clearly successful.

Sooo, it's a bet that gay marriage will not be a matter of discussion and will be unanimous.

 

[xssve]

XSSVE

Same-sex marriage isnt an equal protection issue, its another permutation of affirmative action.

It's an arbitrary distinction. Religious political factions are behind all of this, between CBN, talk radio, and their lecture circuit, it's a nonstop, multi-billion dollar media blitz at taxpayer expense - and I hate to tell you, but if you've every had sex for fun and not reproduction, you're total flaming queen as far as they're concerned.

You pathetic whiners are trying to get copyrights to concepts that are in the public domain: marriage, god, morality, etc.. this is true not only ethically, but historically - you're not going to beat biology, it's fools errand, the Catholics, in a Thousand years of social and political hegemony only managed to drive it underground - you're not going wish it away, you just don't have anything else left to act incensed about.

Come up with your own shit.

 

[Dragonlipz]

I have a book of poetry in my daughter's hands, arranging and collating my thoughts from visiting Haight-Ashbury, in San Francisco, during its' heyday and more glimpses of Greenwich Village, in New York City, along with Times Square and a hundred other places as this, 'Travelin' man' soaked up the scenes of the 'free love' generation and its' aftermath...a sad one.

I satiated myself in the opium dens of the City of Light, Paris, with the artists and sculptors and writers of the 'real' Bohemian's who had reason to challenge the Victorian era; vicariously, of course, as I am old, but not that old.

The 'free love' generation, was just a 'cop out', a turning away, a looking inward, a 'hope', of finding something there. They did not.

They did not find it in drugs or trippin' out, or in promiscuity, or in burning bra's or flags, they found nothing but each other and each with nothing to offer, but that, a communal whining, along with the spaced out music of a truly lost generation.

Having rejected all externalities and committed to turning inwards, the shock of finding nothing still reverberates through yet another generation; your children.

"Change is the only constant." I would attribute that if I knew to whom it belonged; but change is inevitable and the changes you seek have failed to materialize and something else is on the horizon, unbeknownst to you, yet edging ever closer.

Beware...



Amicus (waxing poetically this late eve...)

Yet more pathetic whining from one who has more regrets than memories.........Painting with the roller (broad brush) again, are we, now, Mon Ami?

You really have to get over/deal with all that wasted energy.......you'll just have more to mull over when you get to Hell.......

 

[slyc_willie]

So, there you are, slyc_willie, a view into a real nutcase or a frightening look that things are not all as well as you seem to think they are.

I remain...

Amicus...

Forgive my late replay; things have been busy here at home.

No, I never thought things were simple, Ami. My last response on this thread was flippant, I admit.

I only intended to imply that, while change is often destructive, it is not the be all and end all. The definition of marriage, within the span of the next generation or two, will be changed dramatically across the country and probably throughout the developed world. Indeed, there will come a day when the "traditional" view of marriage as your generation (and that of my father) understood it is seen by the majority as outdated and narrow.

There are a lot of things about the advancement of rights and liberties, as you pointed out in your post, that seem counterproductive. But any sweeping change to the status quo is always met with resistance. I abhorringly anticipate in the next several years a rise in hate crime toward gays and lesbians simply because of the increasing number of states granted them the right to marry. It won't be a pretty thing. there will be tragedies and martyrs, shades of Harvey Milk et al.

But that's how this chaotic mess called humanity is. Some embrace change, others resist to frightening degrees. There's no society on earth that ever remained static in the face of sweeping change and survived, and not one that has ever endured intact throughout its existence. There will come a day when there is no United States of America. Perhaps, when our race ascends to the stars and represents a unified species, they will be able to meet other civilizations with only a singular descriptor of Human as their identification, with a single government behind them.

And among them will be happily married gay and lesbian couples and families.

 

[amicus]

Hello again, slyc...it is not necessary to say that I disagree with just about everything you foresee, for I do.

It is strange that so many who advocate diversity, yearn for universality, as your quest for the stars ends in just, 'humans'.

There will never be just humans, but always the ethnic differences, we shall not all become the coffee/cream colored space race of people so many writer's have predicted. I remember a small part of a film, with Rock Hudson starring, his family was on Mars and waiting to meet the Martians....they looked at their reflections in the water and realized they were the first Martians.

Even our current species adapts and adjusts to environment, tropical climates produce melatonin which changes epidermal color to suit the environment; natives in the high Andes develop barrel chests, larger lungs to process more Oxygen at the higher altitudes.

Humanity will continue to evolve in relation to the environment of each group and the differences will always remain and be in conflict as that is how evolution works, by experimentation, success and failure; some will go extinct, some will survive and mutate even more.

If you have cable or satellite television with all the movie channels, I suggest you take a survey and remember the subject matter addressed in a large percentage of films and even documentaries. It is all anti business, pro gay, pro abortion, pro socialist, as it has been for a long, long time...I venture to state the people have had enough of the slick sophisticated gay intellectual lifestyle of changing partners, doing drugs and alcohol and demeaning traditional and conventional lifestyles, and that a backlash is now beginning and will rise to a point of total rejection of the lifestyle that has been fashionable since the 60's.

It is over with.

Where it goes from here?



Ami

 

[slyc_willie]

Hello again, slyc...it is not necessary to say that I disagree with just about everything you foresee, for I do.

I figured you would. I wasn't about to be so arrogant as to try to convince you of anything.

It is over with.

Where it goes from here?



Ami

In times of war, or other periods of great stress which filters out across the board, people look for the simplest common shared value. If we, as a people, encounter others out there when we are finally able to escape our own solar system, we will necessarily introduce ourselves as a unified race, even if politics and belief systems do not dictate such on our own world.

I've seen it happen with blacks, whites, Asian-Americans, Hispanics, etc. who all proudly wear the uniform of the American soldier. They are no longer representative of any ethnic group, but simply, Americans.

When faced with non-humans, our representatives will focus on the fact that we are all humans, first and foremost.

ETA: Gonna have to pick this up later. 'Night, Ami.

 

[amicus]

I served in the military also, slyc, and lived in Paradise; Hawaii, touted by most as an international society, I have also been to 'Chinatowns' in several cities, Vietnamese enclaves, the barrio's and the black sections of a hundred different cities.

I have found the people cling to their ethnic differences with pride, much as the 'rebel flag' is commonplace in the south, I lived there also.

When I traveled in Europe, the Brits were the Brits, the Irish, the Irish, the Scots, the Scots and so too the French, especially the French and the Germans and the Norwegians and on down the list and this seguey's into the homosexual community and their lack of 'kinship' that embraces an ethnic or cultural history, they leave all that behind.

Perhaps your experiences were different than mine or perhaps you 'wish' that things could be as you want, or will become what you think right and proper, dunno, but the world I have lived in does not resemble yours, as per your description....

ami