Is "Gay" A Choice?

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SAFE BET

Its a scientific fact that every dyke looks like Drew Carey and is 5 feet tall. The book says the typical dyke weighs about 275 pounds and buys mousse by the barrel.

 

[Guest]

Ah, but then you'd be confused in your own reading--and might very likely give responses that got everything in a tangle.

I saw that on one thread, where LaJoke had me on ignore and kept misinterpreting what I was discussing with posters he didn't have on ignore.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

'whispers "We're still gay."'

Absolutely hilarious. Lovely little cartoon.

 

[ericahope]

Now, now. You can't accuse others of being closed-minded just because they disagree with your opinion on something.

It is strictly your own opinion based on your own experiences, that's what you said.

And others have had different experiences. Thus - different opinions entirely.

Personally, because of this very situation, I need more than just anecdotal information to make up my own mind.

I agree completely Sarah! How could I not agree with someone who writes such wonderfully arousing stories?? Oh my...did I just say that?

Truthfully, I think there is tons we don't know about all sorts of things that makes us tick. Anyone who says they "know" the answer is probably wrong.

And I do love your stories...

Erica

 

[Guest]

yeah.. I wish he could set up an "ignore this thread" function, for those unexpected flamies that show up once in a while. Like Sub Joe's atheist! thread.
I touch bases, but ah is not my "home forum" any longer. If a topic needs subtlety in discussion, I put it elsewhere.

Yes. And it's damned refreshing. The idiots are quite effectively ignored there because of the setup.

Me like.

 

[ericahope]

Nope. I'm not going to ridicule you. I'm simply going to tell you that neither one of you is basing your "opinions" on fact and that you are flying in the face of scientific evidence. The implication that it's some sort of a choice is intrinsic to you argument. Trust me (and the AMA, APA, AP Assoc., Amer. Psychoanalytic Assoc., AAP and the NASW), you are working on a faulty premise.

However, if you want to say that SOME people CHOOSE to ignore/not act upon who or what they truly are, so as to be accepted into the mainstream, I prolly wouldn't disagree with you... but like the chick said, "Psssst... but we're STILL gay!"

So are you saying that people are either born gay or straight and there's nothing in between? Trust me, I know more than a few people who aren't on either end of the spectrum.

 

[Guest]

I agree completely Sarah! How could I not agree with someone who writes such wonderfully arousing stories?? Oh my...did I just say that?

Truthfully, I think there is tons we don't know about all sorts of things that makes us tick. Anyone who says they "know" the answer is probably wrong.

And I do love your stories...

Erica

Laughing - you are too kind!

I agree, there are too many variables, too many unknowns.

For now.

 

[CarolinaHeat]

'whispers "We're still gay."'

Absolutely hilarious. Lovely little cartoon.

yea. I like that line too.

if you're gay, you can sacrifice who you are and pretend not to be gay, but it doesn't change the fact that you are. and in my opinion, you won't find happiness trying to live a lie.

 

[Wildcard Ky]

I think you can't take millions of people and put them into one definitive category.

Some are born that way, and there are some that choose. I suspect that the number that are born with it greatly outnumber those that choose, but there are some that choose.

 

[Safe_Bet]

So are you saying that people are either born gay or straight and there's nothing in between? Trust me, I know more than a few people who aren't on either end of the spectrum.

Like Stella mentioned, they are called Bisexuals, hon. And for this conversation/thread gay men, lesbians AND honest to god bisexuals are included. (BTW, kissing some chick during a frat party to get a rise out of the guys don't earn you any extra points on the Kinsey Scale)

 

[Stella_Omega]

I think you can't take millions of people and put them into one definitive category.

Some are born that way, and there are some that choose. I suspect that the number that are born with it greatly outnumber those that choose, but there are some that choose.

Choose what?

 

[WRJames]

Back in the 70's there was an outburst of what I would call political lesbianism associated with the feminist movement. Women who had been married, and women who had considered themselves heterosexual suddenly turned up with same sex partners.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Back in the 70's there was an outburst of what I would call political lesbianism associated with the feminist movement. Women who had been married, and women who had considered themselves heterosexual suddenly turned up with same sex partners.

Or "women who had been married because of family and/or societal presures, and women YOU considered heterosexuals because they did their best to act that way inspite of their feelings, needs and desires..."

 

[Stella_Omega]

Back in the 70's there was an outburst of what I would call political lesbianism associated with the feminist movement. Women who had been married, and women who had considered themselves heterosexual suddenly turned up with same sex partners.

Women who considered themselves hetero, but realised that they were bisexual. The ones who were actually hetero went back to heterosexuality sooner or later. Women could do that because there has been less homophobia against lesbians-- especially at that time, when most men didn't even recognize lesbianism.

I've yet to see the same phenomenon among men. Male homophobia is far nastier.

 

[WRJames]

Women who considered themselves hetero, but realised that they were bisexual. The ones who were actually hetero went back to heterosexuality sooner or later. Women could do that because there has been less homophobia against lesbians-- especially at that time, when most men didn't even recognize lesbianism.

I've yet to see the same phenomenon among men. Male homophobia is far nastier.

Well, I can tell you that it did happen. I can't tell you why for sure, but it seemed to me at the time that in part it was trendy. Women who were deeply into feminism were trying to do without men altogether.

When you say that there is less homophobia against lesbians -- do you mean that a man would be more willing to accept a woman with a taste for other women?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Women who considered themselves hetero, but realised that they were bisexual. The ones who were actually hetero went back to heterosexuality sooner or later. Women could do that because there has been less homophobia against lesbians-- especially at that time, when most men didn't even recognize lesbianism.

I've yet to see the same phenomenon among men. Male homophobia is far nastier.

And it really, really gets in the way of my writing! Try as I might, I simply cannot fit male-male sexuality into my fiction.

As far as manly gay men go, do a google on Pondoro Taylor some time. Yeah, he was gay.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Well, I can tell you that it did happen. I can't tell you why for sure, but it seemed to me at the time that in part it was trendy. Women who were deeply into feminism were trying to do without men altogether.

When you say that there is less homophobia against lesbians -- do you mean that a man would be more willing to accept a woman with a taste for other women?

In a word, yes! Shoot, it's a cliche' in the porn industry that girl on girl films sell like hotcakes, mostly to straight men.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Well, I can tell you that it did happen. I can't tell you why for sure, but it seemed to me at the time that in part it was trendy. Women who were deeply into feminism were trying to do without men altogether.

There are still a few strickly lesbian enclaves that exclude all men. Many of the women there are not just feminists but are rape and abuse survivors and can't tolerate the presence of ANY man. I think most lesbians don't have any problems with guys they just don't find them sexually attractive.

When you say that there is less homophobia against lesbians -- do you mean that a man would be more willing to accept a woman with a taste for other women?

????? Are you seriously asking that question? It's the great str8 man's fantasy to watch two lesbians having sex...

 

[Belegon]

*sigh*

...and I know dozens of readers and writers of M/M fan fiction and romantic fiction and paranormal gay romance who are straight women. And the audience is full of, though not exclusively, straight women.

There are PLENTY of straight women who get turned on by the idea of two (or more) guys together.

To portray this curiosity and interest as exclusively male is neither honest nor helpful, gang.

I have to agree that male homophobic behavior is more publicly extreme... but I don't think the female behavior is any less painful due to its less boisterous average level of expression.

We who do not want labels applied to us should try not to label others...

 

[Liar]

(BTW, kissing some chick during a frat party to get a rise out of the guys don't earn you any extra points on the Kinsey Scale)

Unless you found out that it REALLY curled your toes.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The late psychiatrist Milton H. Erickson, MD, worked with all kinds of perverts. I use the term pervert to mean acting grossly different from 68% of other humans. His clients were generally self-referred because their problem conduct was out of control and they needed to get a grip on it because of employment or prison sentences or whatever.

One case I recall involved a Reserve Navy Officer who used a piece of garden hose to piss thru. He had orders for sea duty and couldnt use his hose on the ship.

Another case involved a Chicano youth whose homosexual hooking was a serious legal problem because he kept getting caught. The judge told him if he was pinched one more time he was going to prison. So the kid came in wanting help to avoid being arrested.

Erickson hypnotized the youth, and the voice that responded to Erickson revealed that the youth wasnt queer at all, he just thought he was queer, but was mistaken. Most of us have some beliefs that are founded on bad information. Like, my mother believed she was younger than she was, so when I was born she 'lied' and put her correct birthday on my birth certificate. She believed she was 17, but she was really 19.

Ditto for the Chicano kid. Something happened and he believed he was queer, but he wasnt.

Take LIAR. His momma likely told him he's a brainiac and he believed her.

 

[Belegon]

(BTW, kissing some chick during a frat party to get a rise out of the guys don't earn you any extra points on the Kinsey Scale)

What about kissing another dude to win a bet with your girlfriend?

 

[Katyusha]

Why are some women "girly-girls" and other women remain tomboys their whole lives? Is my indifference to make-up, trendy clothes, and high heals inherent in me or am I attempting to act as "abnormal" as possible? Why do some straight men really like wearing women's clothing even though they have no interest at all in sex with other men?

Why do people have to be shoved into categories that define what "normal" should be for them? Could it possibly be that we are all unique in our preferences and behaviors?

I think I like these last two questions.

I know a guy who'll wear nylons and sometimes women's panties because they physically feel good enough to turn him on...it's a kink, maybe a fetish for him, I don't know. But I do know he's as straight as a person can get.

I've known straight women who were tomboyish, and lesbians who were girly-girls through and through (and vice versa). I've known gay men who were manly men, and straight men who were very effeminate (and again, vice versa). I don't know why anybody has to be shoved into any category that makes them either "more" or "less" normal than...everyone else I guess.

 

[Liar]

I've yet to see the same phenomenon among men.

You didn't go to my high school then.

There was a "gay guys" clique, with all the cliché queer mannerisms, who stuck together through hell, high water and the taunting from homophobic (and generally xenophobic) jocks.

As an openly gay (and subsequently openly bi) guy, I was accepted in their ranks and got to know them pretty well, but I was always too "normal" to feel really comfortable with the group. But some of them are my friends to this day.

Turns out a number of the guys in the gang weren't gay at all, but just latched on to whatever group identity that was most like them socially, and bought the sexuality bit as part of the package. It probaby never felt right for them, but on the other hand, their prior experiences with girls, if they'd had any, never felt right either. Which is often the case on that rollercoaster we call puberty and post adolescent insanity.

After school, they went on to realize they were actually hetero, and haven't been interrested in their own gender since. Sexually, I mean. And that their embracing of "gayness" was more about anti-conformity. (and conformity to fit in with the other anti-conformists)

Soinds pretty much like the "political lesbians" to me. But in a difeferent context.


They didn't choose to be gay, though. They chose to convince themselves they were. Whaich was possible for a while, until reality caught up.

I guess the same quite often happens to gay men and women who aer brought up in an environment where homosexuality isn't an option.

 

[sr71plt]

You didn't go to my high school then.

There was a "gay guys" clique, with all the cliché queer mannerisms, who stuck together through hell, high water and the taunting from homophobic (and generally xenophobic) jocks.

As an openly gay (and subsequently openly bi) guy, I was accepted in their ranks and got to know them pretty well, but I was always too "normal" to feel really comfortable with the group. But some of them are my friends to this day.

Turns out a number of the guys in the gang weren't gay at all, but just latched on to whatever group identity that was most like them socially, and bought the sexuality bit as part of the package. It probaby never felt right for them, but on the other hand, their prior experiences with girls, if they'd had any, never felt right either. Which is often the case on that rollercoaster we call puberty and post adolescent insanity.

After school, they went on to realize they were actually hetero, and haven't been interrested in their own gender since. Sexually, I mean. And that their embracing of "gayness" was more about anti-conformity. (and conformity to fit in with the other anti-conformists)

Soinds pretty much like the "political lesbians" to me. But in a difeferent context.

And, of course, some of the "homophobic" jocks were really gay.