Irredeemable Sin

[Colleen Thomas]

I've been discussing this with a friend since before I posted, and here's the answer he came up with.

"Part of redemption is forgiveness. If you cannot allow a person to redeem themselves, that, in and of itself, is unredeemable."

I'm unredeemable then

I can live with it

 

[tolyk]

I'm unredeemable then

I can live with it

Even though I know he's right, I'm cannot see myself forgiving a rapist. But, the scenario he spelled out is rather convincing, though not very plausible.. I mean, how often have you heard of a rapist seeking forgiveness from the person they raped, or going on to help rape victims (What rape victims would allow a prior rapist to help them?)... society just doesn't work that way..

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Hey, Boxlicker, ever read Dr. Richard Leakey's "The Sixth Extinction"? Very fascinating book about that subject.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Even though I know he's right, I'm cannot see myself forgiving a rapist. But, the scenario he spelled out is rather convincing, though not very plausible.. I mean, how often have you heard of a rapist seeking forgiveness from the person they raped, or going on to help rape victims (What rape victims would allow a prior rapist to help them?)... society just doesn't work that way..

There are a lot of ciminal acts I simply don't have it in me to forgive. There are some legal acts, Mr. Phelps and his funeral protests come to mind, that I will not forgive.

If the inability to forgive is the cornerstone of being unredeemable in his opinion, then I am totally unredeemable. At the same time, my moral/ethical code dosen't work on the same principals as his. Since I don't hold with CPA style morality. A nobel peace prize does not in any way mitigate a past as a Nazi offical invlved in transport of Jews to Aushwitz. Good works cannot be stored and then applied to mitigate crimes.

In my accounting, if you rape someone, you have done harm to them that is irreperable. That puts you beyond the pale. Nothing you do can repair the damage you have done. And I don't see any act of charity or good will that could possible mitigate your origninal crime.

He seems to be interested in a blanket statement. I am more prone to look at things on a case by case basis.

 

[Wildcard Ky]

From a purely Christian point of view, the Bible speaks of only one unforgiveable sin. That sin is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. I realize that there's a difference between irredeemable and unforgiveable, but I thought this would add an interesting twist to the discussion.

According to the Bible, all other sins can be forgiven if the sinner is truly repentant except for that one.

Irredeemable? Pedophiles.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I think this has already started to slide away from the question at hand. Lucifer didn't ask what we think god would find unforgivable, he asked what WE find unforgivable. A few have answered the question, but it's turning into a religious debate. This is why I try to respond to a post like this from the first post, not after reading the entire thing. Or at least think of my responce first.

That's a good point, Tolyk.

I think the most unforgivable thing, for me, is taking pleasure in the pain or sorrow of others. I think it very wrong and vicious to destroy others in the course of getting what one wants, but even that is more understandable to me than those who create suffering for the love of suffering itself. To me, that is the essence of evil: to enjoy another's misery and sorrow.

(I suppose, this forum being where it is, that I must of course note that I'm not talking about "pain" in the sense of a delightful round or two with a lively crop, but "pain" as in "thing that causes undesired physical pain or mental/emotional distress").


Shanglan

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Even though I know he's right, I'm cannot see myself forgiving a rapist.

There's a story about a woman who was attacked... and in the midst of being raped by this man... she looked up into his eyes and told him that she loved him. She gave him her love and compassion in that moment, in the very moment she was being violated, and the man stopped. He sobbed, and she held him... and he walked her home. Saying he didn't trust her alone on the streets, that someone might hurt her. :x

Now, I'm not saying this is typical, usual, or even plausible in most cases... but that is a level of forgiveness that, to me, can be transformative.

I knew another woman who, at the sentencing of the man who had killed her only son (drunk driver), was asked by the judge, what do you want to see happen to him? The woman replied that her son was gone, nothing could bring him back... and that her love and compassion now went to the man who had killed him. He ended up doing presentations with her for MADD after he was released.

I haven't been pushed to these limits... but I don't know that there is nothing I couldn't forgive.

 

[tolyk]

I knew another woman who, at the sentencing of the man who had killed her only son (drunk driver), was asked by the judge, what do you want to see happen to him? The woman replied that her son was gone, nothing could bring him back... and that her love and compassion now went to the man who had killed him. He ended up doing presentations with her for MADD after he was released.

That one touches me on a personal level, as my eldest brother was killed by a drunk driver as well, and my mother had her own MADD chapter, I helped out by keeping her books organised and whatnot. The drunk driver in this case acted in no way similar to your story. It's nice to know that at least one person did..

 

[SeaCat]

Personaly I don't deal with sin. I have my own religio beliefs and hold them to myself.

Judge not lest ye be judged.

That being said I do have to add that I will respond in sometimes socialy unacceptable fashion in certain circumstances.

If I catch you commiting rape, you will die in a very unpleasant manner. (In front of your victim none the less.)

If I catch you molesting a child, you will die in an extremely unpleasant manner.

If I catch you beating a woman, your beating will be at least twice as bad as the one you were giving her.

That's it. (If you attack me I laugh at you. If you attack my family then all bets are off. I'm not civilised.)

Cat

Oh, they have to find your body to say it was murder.

 

[Stella_Omega]

There's a story about a woman who was attacked... and in the midst of being raped by this man... she looked up into his eyes and told him that she loved him. She gave him her love and compassion in that moment, in the very moment she was being violated, and the man stopped. He sobbed, and she held him... and he walked her home. Saying he didn't trust her alone on the streets, that someone might hurt her. :x

Now, I'm not saying this is typical, usual, or even plausible in most cases... but that is a level of forgiveness that, to me, can be transformative.

I knew another woman who, at the sentencing of the man who had killed her only son (drunk driver), was asked by the judge, what do you want to see happen to him? The woman replied that her son was gone, nothing could bring him back... and that her love and compassion now went to the man who had killed him. He ended up doing presentations with her for MADD after he was released.

I haven't been pushed to these limits... but I don't know that there is nothing I couldn't forgive.

I do know the MADD story is true- but one wonders about the first story.
As a top who occasionally deals in psychological scenes, I might be able to notice the moment and "flip" an attacker in that way. And I would take the initiative. Of course I would. But would I actually forgive and love him?
heh.

 

[BlackShanglan]

That one touches me on a personal level, as my eldest brother was killed by a drunk driver as well, and my mother had her own MADD chapter, I helped out by keeping her books organised and whatnot. The drunk driver in this case acted in no way similar to your story. It's nice to know that at least one person did..

I'm very sorry for your loss, Tolyk. It's beyond comprehension to me that someone could do such a thing and not spend the rest of his life striving to atone for it. Were I (God please forbid) in that position, whether I ever achieved the forgiveness of my fellow humans would seem to me entirely beside the point. That there is no way to ever undo the terrible consequences of one's actions is no reason not to try.

Shanglan

 

[tolyk]

I'm very sorry for your loss, Tolyk. It's beyond comprehension to me that someone could do such a thing and not spend the rest of his life striving to atone for it. Were I (God please forbid) in that position, whether I ever achieved the forgiveness of my fellow humans would seem to me entirely beside the point. That there is no way to ever undo the terrible consequences of one's actions is no reason not to try.

Shanglan

Thank you Shang..

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Personal forgiveness can be very difficult. It's difficult to forgive even small personal slights like betrayal by a friend. I know for me it takes both time and a measure of repentance on the person regarded. I have a hard time forgiving a lot of evil people. Rapists, wife-beaters, those who delight in the misery of others, those who try to drive another to suicide with the smug knowledge that "they aren't killing anyone", mere misogynists, etc...

My own personal ability to forgive doesn't look too hot sometimes and people point out from time to time that that isn't a very nice attitude to have. My SO recently forgave and rebecame friends with an ex who had nearly raped her at a party and then told his gf that it had been the opposite that my SO had been all over him and kissed him to save his skin. I was in the very odd position of trying to convince her that she wasn't being "silly" to have had "such difficulty" in forgiving him while at the same time noting that if I had been in the same position, the guy would be lucky to only be cursed out and that friendship would be impossible.

But I recognize that I can be vindictive and bastardly about such things. I do forgive many slights, but I do not seek friendships with those that slight and do not look kindly on them. And there are many people out there I would be all too happy to take my dagger to despite the knowledge of how deeply that would stain my own soul. And like the friend who taught me everything about forgiveness and kindnes, there are certain sights where all the self-control in the world would not stop me (woman being raped).



Still, would I forgive an earnestly repentant man who devoted the rest of his life to insufficiently making up for his crime, who was tortured every night and day by his actions, and who strove his damnedest to make the rest of his life one anyone could be proud of? With knowledge of what he had done? When do the scales tip back? Do they ever? Is it all lost if he reverts as soon as he believes they've tipped? (To this last one I have an answer and it is yes). I'd like to believe that for the truly repentant, to those who truly atone for the rest of their miserable lives in earnest agony of what they've done, that there is hope for them and I know the people I admire would be able to appreciate what they've done no problem and like to believe that eventually after much spiting I'd be able to do the same once I'd been convinced of the earnestness.


The quote of Marlowe is great for a Black Romantic like myself. The belief that there is always a glimmer of hope for redemption if it is harsh and earnest until the moment when the sinner gives up attempting to redeem themselves. And I thought it interesting the brief debate on whether a deity would forgive. I understand that there are Christian sects that believe faith not deeds are what grant forgiveness and that to them this would seem trivial. Nonetheless, I liked how it was advanced that faith itself could be an instrument of atonement (an earnest seeking of absolution for a recognized sin and not to "just get off the hook").

I realize my own viewpoints on eternal justice are merely a complicated version of CPA morality (as the incredibly brilliant Colleen put it), the idea that the intention, the reaction, the atonement, etc... color the deed and that this summation of colored deeds colors your life good, evil, eh somewhere in the middle and the various shades of these. Thus, I enjoyed the mix of both large-scale and personal views on the matter and would love to hear more. What we can forgive and what we believe is forgiven by whatever force or God you give most weight is interesting and it is indeed a play that had explored both that made me bring up this topic. A man through his atonement ends up forgiven and respected by everyone who knew his sins, but does not receive the direct forgiveness of his deity.

And it is also a topic of personal interest to myself as I have an uncharitable past and a multitude of sins both in done deeds and temperments, which I am atoning for and striving to improve myself from. It is such a question? Is there hope for the fundamentally evil man if he works hard enough? Is there salvation for the Devil?

 

[BlackShanglan]

And it is also a topic of personal interest to myself as I have an uncharitable past and a multitude of sins both in done deeds and temperments, which I am atoning for and striving to improve myself from. It is such a question? Is there hope for the fundamentally evil man if he works hard enough? Is there salvation for the Devil?

I've heard some espouse the theory that Satan himself would indeed be forgiven, and immediately - if only he could bring himself truly and humbly to ask for it. I suppose that's my model of sin and forgiveness in the Diety. I tend to view it not as a CPA-style ledger where good and evil weigh up, but as a final state of the soul itself. In some ways it's less forgiving than the CPA model: years of good works would not save someone who went horribly astray and died unrepetent and vicious. But in other ways it's gentler: no one is beyond redemption.

That said, I also recognize that some things are very rare. It's quite uncommon for a truly evil and vicious person to repent in a serious way. Fortunately, I think it's also quite rare for a truly good person to fall to the other side. I also understand and accept that human forgiveness works differently to divine forgiveness. We're not able to see into someone's soul and judge the veracity of his or her repentence, and we're understandably frightened that we'll be hurt if we guess wrong. We also lack truly divine capacities for forgiveness, and I think that God understands that. For that reason, I have no serious qualms with human justice when it is strong without glorifying suffering or vengeance. Some people are too dangerous ever to be trusted again; whatever God's understanding of their souls, humans must judge them by their actions, and some actions cannot be mitigated in this life.

Shanglan

 

[Rope64]

I don't think any sin is irredeemable. I guess I have a quasi-Buddhist perspective, that if you have perfect understanding, you will not sin. Hence, "The Buddha's Curse" is understanding after the fact why something you did was a sin. Perfect justice would be having simultaneously to live the lives of the people you have affected, and while there is no reason for anyone to expect that perfect justice will ever be served, I can't think of any reason to hold anything else over someone who has come to internalize the harm he has caused others, and to appreciate going forward that he should act as though he is subject to perfect justice.