"Irony"

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On the “Makes me wince!” thread several posts began to discuss Irony and its use and misuse, even abuse. Understanding irony has long been a personal effort and desire. I’m not so interested in the ironic discussed in the ‘wince’ thread, i.e., irony in daily life or irony as a literary technique, but I daresay something more profound. There is much in academia and lit. theory on the subject, which only makes it more complicated, the understanding, yet more intriguing to me.

I was given the stock definition early in high-school via dramatic irony, e.g., King Lear turning into a fool and The Fool commenting on it; or Lady Macbeth becoming the human vs. her earlier admonitions to her husband, and of course the ending of Romeo and Juliet.

But what I find more interesting is something like, for want of a better simile, sub-textual irony, something a bit more difficult to define. This in turn causes me to wonder about irony in nature, or perhaps ‘natural’ irony, e.g., perhaps too simple but the fact that ‘nature’ safeguards forests with the seeming chaos of fires that in the end help the ‘growth’ of the ‘trees for the forest’ vs. ‘the forest for the trees’ viewpoint. One could look at that literally as a literary example but it seems too big a reality to confine it so. Is the plate tectonic theory ironic? Is the law of gravity ironic? The Big Bang (whether as theory or reality)?

I suppose there might even be a philosophy of irony, or a psychology of irony (perhaps most detectible in the way dreams work, which of course relates to language itself). Is religious 'faith' an irony? 'God'? And so I return to language and its unique part in the makeup of the human. Is irony inherent in language, its structure, it sub-textual structure, its form-and-content? Or is the mind merely what the brain does?

Just one more specific comment: Shakespeare uses irony exquisitely, more profoundly than the examples learned in h.s. above. I read his texts with that sense of the inherent irony seeping, flowing at times, through the language, the structure of it, even given the 'translation' required to understand the Elizabethan consciousness (a truly impossble task I believe, and therefore somewhat ironic, or perhaps simply a mystery however profound). So I'm led back to 'dramatic irony' and wonder more about the 'irony of drama', including the actual 'acting' of it, which leads to 'role play', particularly the sexual.

Enough from me. Any thoughts, Lit. people?
 
Irony can be grand if it's used correctly. In any form of prose be it erotic or non. As far as natures irony I find it "funny" that studies show that animals (outside of the human race) do not have sex for pleasure but to reproduce and populate their species.

with that said the ironic bit would be the animals who eat their young. (hamsters, rats)


I can think of only a few stories whre the ironic undercurrent is both apprant and nicely done one of those would be othello and the events that transpired within:kiss:
 
I think you're probably right Purr, irony would have no existance if not for the fact of words. Events of themselves aren't ironic. That is to say "shit happens".

It's observers or participants who relate events that gives them irony.

Another example of 'natural' irony would be the zebra's stripes. As camouflage the markings on a zebra serve to make it almost impossible for a predator to distinguish a single animal in a herd. Ironically, those same markings make it a sitting duck when out of the crowd.

It's not ironic for the zebra, it's lethal. It's not ironic for the lion or leopard or cheetah, it's serendipity. It's ironic because I said it is.

(Standard flippant remark for end of serious post.) Maybe I'm just being foolish [almost went into a song there] and it's not ironic at all whether I say so or not.

Maybe the irony of this post is that I assumed an imagined irony in the subtext of Perdita's original.

Gauche:confused:
 
gauchecritic said:
Maybe the irony of this post is that I assumed an imagined irony in the subtext of Perdita's original.
Thank you gauchemaster! I can always trust someone with a brain (don't know if the gender makes a diff.) unlike mine (i.e., nearly anyone) to put it much more simply and understandably. I think a clever slogan for a tee might be:

Shit happens is not irony.

The zebra example is spot (or stripe) on. Even your 'standard flippancy' works (more apparently than you think, or admit). A song would have been welcome too.

And the above quote only confuses me further, but amuses too.

Purr
 
Irony

THERE IS “IRONY”:

(Said by someone of whom it is know, does not admire the beauty of the lady in question.)

“What a lovely hat! I especially like how the feather curls about to obscure your face, and makes each feature more mysterious.”



THEN THERE IS “DRAMATIC IRONY”:

(Jim has just been killed by a trigger-happy police officer. Said either by, or to, someone who does not know of Jim’s fate - perhaps, even both persons, as long as the audience/reader is aware.)

‘You won’t hear Jim making any bleeding heart complaints about police brutality!”
 
Re: Irony

Quasimodem said:
THERE IS “IRONY”:
(Said by someone of whom it is know, does not admire the beauty of the lady in question.)
“What a lovely hat! I especially like how the feather curls about to obscure your face, and makes each feature more mysterious.”

THEN THERE IS “DRAMATIC IRONY”:
(Jim has just been killed by a trigger-happy police officer. Said either by, or to, someone who does not know of Jim’s fate - perhaps, even both persons, as long as the audience/reader is aware.)
‘You won’t hear Jim making any bleeding heart complaints about police brutality!”
Quas, I don't see the first example ironic; merely sarcastic, not even ironically delivered.

Not sure about the formal label for the seond; if ironic I'd say it's too forced. Perdita
 
irony >noun (pl. ironies) 1 the expression of meaning through the use of language which normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous effect. 2 a state of affairs that appears perversely contrary to what one expects.


As in the first example, irony is often sarcastic, but a statement which is sarcastic is not, necessarily ironic.

Dramatic irony happens when a character states something which the audience/reader KNOWS is wrong - although the character saying it, and/or the people to whom he delivers the statement are not aware.

This, as said, usually has a humourous effect. Dramatic irony, unless one is aware of the situation that exists around the statement, usually does not - of itself - appear humourous. Only when seen within that situation.
 
Would you consider THIS irony?

"Still," said Ron, reaching for the plate of toast, "there's a definite possibility that he's a vicious, cold-blooded -" Ginny squeaked. Ron glanced up and saw Draco standing in the doorway, wearing Mrs. Weasleys' fuzzy pink sweater and carrying a large green book. "Oh. Um...piece of toast?" said Ron lamely, offering the plate to Draco.

"I've been called a lot of things in my life," said Draco, looking at the plate. "But never a vicious, cold-blooded piece of toast."
 
Re: Irony

Quasimodem said:
THERE IS “IRONY”:

(Said by someone of whom it is know, does not admire the beauty of the lady in question.)

“What a lovely hat! I especially like how the feather curls about to obscure your face, and makes each feature more mysterious.”


I think this statement would be ironic if the speaker prefaced the statement like so you have the most beautiful eyes I've ever seen oh and “What a lovely hat! I especially like how the feather curls about to obscure your face, and makes each feature more mysterious."

even that would be a Strecth unless the recipient of the "compliment" later found out that the person was completely and blind. and having never seen a hat on a head and wouldn't know the hat would obscure the eyes. Her beauty and hat had been described to them.
 
sirhugs said:
I as initially gonna say "no", then I realized there is irony in Draco's absence of awareness of the true facts.

sirhugs, I'm sure many more will agree with me when I say:

HUH???:confused:
 
Despite what Alanis Morisette thinks, irony is NOT a black fly in your chardonnay. Tha'ts just unfortunate, and if you're the kind of person who drinks chardonnay regularly, then it's pretentious as well.

If a diabetic, on his way to buy insulin, is hit by a truck, then he is the victim of a traffic accident. If the truck was delievering sugar, then it is an oddly poetic coincidence. But if the truck was delivering insulin, THEN it is ironic. (Paraphrased somewhat from part of a George Carlin routine.)
 
Svenskaflicka said:
Would you consider THIS irony?

Draco's statment is more satirical than strictly ironic.

Satire may include irony, but need not neccessarily be ironic.

In your example, I would tend to judge that it fell more under the ridicule portion of satire's definition, rather than that of irony.
 
postlude

Except for Gauche I need to say these responses were disappointing. If one reads my initial post I tried to prompt more substantive discussion than the usual literary term culled from h.s. English classes. Even Hugs' site is mundane, and I disagree with the last entry on 'verbal irony' with the example from Hamlet. Puns are not ironic except on a very minimal technical level. Perhaps the UVic site was intended for first year students; still it's surprising to me that it represents a UK uni.

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly, but no matter. Thanks for the attention.

Perdita
 
I have always understood the relation between verbal, dramatic, and situational ironies--and for the moment I'll assume there are those three common ones only--to be one of increasing metaphor, and that verbal irony is the original. Perhaps if I went back to Aristotle I'd find I was wrong.

Verbal irony is words used and intended in the opposite of their literal sense: 'What a lovely hat!' is ironic. It is independent of whatever tone it was spoken in (we have other words for the tone, which could be sincere-sounding when addressing the other, or sarcastic when seeing it in a shop).

Dramatic irony comes when actors speak words, and the audience knows that the words can be, or soon will be, taken in an opposite sense: 'Now is our family's joy complete!' (excerpt from lost Euripides I just made up on the spot).

The much-abused situtational irony, use of which should be forbidden to anyone who doesn't know the first two, comes from seeing life itself as a stage, us the hapless players, the gods our knowing spectators. We do something that we believe cuts one way, the unappeasable gods nod at the meaning we do not realize we have expressed.

I do not know, nor do I care, what the postmodernists may say about extending irony a stage further, except that it seems to be a favoured word, and therefore suspect to the rest of us. However, with the caveat that I am taking this in an Aristotelian way only, what would be an extension to natural actors who have no wills?

In biology, certainly. Natural selection forces creatures to behave in ways strongly against their long-term interest: all trees in a canopy have to be as high as they can, and equally high, otherwise the shorter is shaded out by the taller even though it's not squandering its resources on growth. Any arms race, such as between leopards and antelopes, or that requires excessive armour, such as giant horns for mating fights or thick shells, represents a huge expenditure in directions other than food and sex. No-one has enjoyed safe comfortable expansion since the early stages of the prokaryotic soup.

In inanimate nature? There's a law of least action that means you don't get contraries blown up to the degree you do in biology. I don't think it's ironic for anyone except us the sentient spectators that the universe, after such a promising outward phase, will end in an era of galactic black holes followed by Hawking radiation to nothingness--or in a big crunch, if that's the fate. We see that as wasted effort, as something smaller would be in life (as life is with death at the end), but I want a metaphorical participant who's frustrated in their efforts before I call it cosmologically ironic.
 
Yay sarcasm!

Svenskaflicka said:
I think sarcasm is funnier than irony.
Hiya, Svenska,
Sarcasm is certainly my favorite. I have difficulty with anything else.
MG
 
Rainbow:

thanks, I will give your post much consideration and thought, must leave for work now.

I knew if I acted Gauche I'd get one more good response. ;)

MG: you are the 'cine qua nun' of sarcasm and other literary merriment, you ironic little baby you.

Svenska: keep your irony to yourself, I think HP needs it. Ow! Guache, help! Owowow...

P.
 
Re: Rainbow:

perdita said:
MG: you are the 'cine qua nun' of sarcasm and other literary merriment, you ironic little baby you.
Hiya, Perdita,
Thanks, but I seldom go to movies and I certainly don't live in a convent.
MG
 
Nope. I WAS going to share him with you, but if you're gonna insult my boyfriend Harry, I'll just keep Snapey to myself!

*sticks nose in air*
 
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