Iraq, the Aftermath…

[amicus]

Watching a film tonight, seen it before, but…”The Hunters, Robert Mitchum, Robert Wagner, May Britt, a 1958 movie, concerning the “Korean Conflict” in the early 1950’s.

Keep in mind, as you read this, that I have been around a long, long time and think about and study such things and I do not expect that many have.

While it is not Doctoral Research that leads me to my conclusions, rather some history, some books, some films, some anecdotal, personal experiences, not necessarily documented, but valid in some ways, at least I think so.

World War Two, with Allied Occupation of both Germany and Japan, was a turning point in world history. Were it not for the Communist Soviet Russia, it may have indeed been the war to end all wars.

Regardless, the occupation of Japan and Germany, gave the world two democracies, and millions of people afforded human liberty and freedom.

It was the dictatorship of Stalin in the Soviet Union that brought about Korea and Communist China and eventually Vietnam.

We faced Soviet Tanks and Aircraft in Korea, Vietnam and Iraq and the weapon of choice for terrorists is still a Soviet invention, all over the terrorist world.

The aftermath of Iraq…will it resemble Berlin and Tokyo, or will it become Saigon and Pyongyang or Beijing; festering places of human degradation, or beacons of human freedom?

I suppose this will be considered a political thread, but is it not a literary one also, wherein human freedom and dignity, free choice and free will are in opposition to oppression and slavery and degradation of the free human spirit?

Curious as to how the ‘usual suspects’ will approach this thread….if at all.

Amicus…

 

[Gavionn]

If things continue as they've been going; we'll see Iraq much the way you describe Saigon, Pyongyang and Beijing.

If someone with half a brain takes over, there is still hope that something less-than horrible can come from the current mess in Iraq.

The key is to understand the history of the region and the different religious sects involved in the conflict. Rather than thinking that the "big bad USA" can just saunter in and change 2000 years of conflict with some tanks, helicopters and rhetoric.

Someone who isn't looking to profit financially would be a good choice, too.

I can't say that I think Iraq will ever be a "beacon of human freedom" -at least not in my lifetime - but I do believe that it could become an example of parliamentary success.

The most we can hope for at this juncture is for the 3 major players in Iraq (Sunni, Shia and Kurd) to establish a dialouge. And unless and until each of them doesn't feel the need to destroy the others in order to survive... there's no way.

 

[amicus]

[QUOTE=Gavionn]If things continue as they've been going; we'll see Iraq much the way you describe Saigon, Pyongyang and Beijing.

If someone with half a brain takes over, there is still hope that something less-than horrible can come from the current mess in Iraq.

The key is to understand the history of the region and the different religious sects involved in the conflict. Rather than thinking that the "big bad USA" can just saunter in and change 2000 years of conflict with some tanks, helicopters and rhetoric.

Someone who isn't looking to profit financially would be a good choice, too.

I can't say that I think Iraq will ever be a "beacon of human freedom" -at least not in my lifetime - but I do believe that it could become an example of parliamentary success.

The most we can hope for at this juncture is for the 3 major players in Iraq (Sunni, Shia and Kurd) to establish a dialouge. And unless and until each of them doesn't feel the need to destroy the others in order to survive... there's no way.[/QUOTE]


~~~

Welcome to the forum Gavionn and thank you for taking the time to respond.

Sighs...."The Big Bad USA"...I think my post was clear enough, however, when the big bad USA sacrificed lives, time, energy, resources in WW1 and WW2, to come to the aid of much of the world, I suggest America was seen in a different light.

There were also analogous 'tribal' loyalties in Europe and Asia, all of which acted to deprive people of their innate rights to life and liberty.

I sometimes despair that you folks will ever gain an understand of human freedom and those who have defended through time immemorial.

Amicus...

 

[Gavionn]

Thanks for the welcome, Amicus.

I think I understand your point, but comparing the current activities in Iraq with WWI and WWII is hardly an "apples to apples" comparison.

And specifically which of the "tribal loyalties" of Europe and Asia did America attempt to assimilate/homogenize into a single Democratic Union during occupation after either of those 2 wars?

I'm not sure which group you are lumping me in with when you say "you people". And I'm also not sure in what way you claim that I misunderstand human freedom. It seems to me that allowing different sects with varying hard-held beliefs to maintain their own sovereignty within their own country IS human freedom. At no point have I suggested a return to Dictatorship in Iraq. Merely that it may be too much to expect thousands of years of strife and civil war to end merely because of our presence. In fact, our presence seems to be making it worse on many levels. Helping Iraq build a parliamentary system of government seems to me to be a more logical first step.

Many of the beneficial missions our military are undertaking are being usurped by the hamfisted policies of this administration. Albert Einstein is quoted to have said something to the effect of: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

This is how I feel about the whole "Stay the course" rhetoric that I hear repeated again and again. When something isn't working, you don't keep doing it for months and years on end. You adapt and change and innovate.

All I'm suggesting is that there is more than one option for which course to take, and at this point; the course that represents the least risk of continued American casualties is the best option. It is time for the Iraqi government to step to the plate and take some responsiblity for their citizens. We are not the worlds police force, or babysitter. And if all of the terror threats we hear bandied about are true... we need a stronger force here at home than we currently enjoy.

And before you tell me that the terrorists will only follow us home, let me suggest this: When are we more vulnerable? When a majority of our military is deployed or otherwise supporting operations in another country, or when they are on-site here at home? In which scenario would you think an attack is more likely to happen?

Just some of my thoughts on the subject, not trying to start a brouhaha or anything. I fully respect your right to disagree with me and will gladly listen to your rebuttal.

Thanks again for the words of welcome and the thoughtful reply.

 

[amicus]

Thank you for revisiting a thread that got little response and pretty much died from neglect.

Both the left and the right seem to conclude that this administration has botched the events in the Middle East.

I mostly disagree with both and I do point out that the war and the conduct of it has been a joint coalition effort from the beginning.

I don't like to contemplate the world at large if Great Britain had not held out and thwarted the Nazis. A fascist Europe? Or if Japan had not attacked the United States, and Imperialist Asia?

Would either have stopped there?

The global containment of Soviet Russia, also an Allied effort that saw conflict throughout most of the world for nearly forty years.

Most do not seem to to take the threat of Islamic Fundamentalism as seriously as World War Two or International Communism even though it is rampant throughout Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Asia and has inflicted terror on North America.

Most did not want to confront the German, Japanese or Russian threats to world order in the middle of the 20th century.

They were wrong. I think those opposed to the attempts to restrain the Muslims are also wrong.

I suppose that time will tell.


Thank you

Amicus...