Interview with George RR Martin

[PennLady]

Just read this, on RollingStone.com
http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423

He discusses the GoT books in general terms, but if you haven't read the books, there are a couple of spoilers, mostly from the first book.

Mostly he talks about how and why he writes and what it means to him and things like that.

 

[jomar]

Thanks for the article. I do wish he'd get on with it.

 

[PennLady]

Thanks for the article. I do wish he'd get on with it.

LOL I bet HBO does, too.

 

[Bramblethorn]

LOL I bet HBO does, too.

I'm looking forward to "Game Of Thrones: The Filler Years" where everybody sits around and plays cards while waiting for GRRM to decide what happens next.

Although this being HBO, they'll probably just pad it out with a couple of seasons of sex. (77% M/F, 12% F/F, 3% M/M, 8% group, I think that's the standard ratio

 

[AMoveableBeast]

I'm looking forward to "Game Of Thrones: The Filler Years" where everybody sits around and plays cards while waiting for GRRM to decide what happens next.

Although this being HBO, they'll probably just pad it out with a couple of seasons of sex. (77% M/F, 12% F/F, 3% M/M, 8% group, I think that's the standard ratio

http://www.theonion.com/articles/game-of-thrones-season-3-opens-with-every-characte,31882/



You can thank me later.

 

[StarryEyed665]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/game-of-thrones-season-3-opens-with-every-characte,31882/



You can thank me later.

-laughs to death-

I can totally empathise with his epically slow pace, it's how he makes the books so epic, but I am so afraid he won't live to finish them. It's like, my greatest fear.

 

[DirtyAllie]

I was very impressed with the show until last week

I have no issue with characters having bad things befall them, the book is full of that, but as upsetting as Red Wedding was it was pretty true to the book

What happened last Sunday(I won't spoil it) was atrocious. The total opposite of what happened in the book and to me totally destroyed two characters.

Martin claims he wasn't "in on" that scene. He didn't seem happy about what happened and I don't blame him.

The show is shocking enough without the directors trying to go over the top.

I'm so upset that I'm skipping tonight and might walk away altogether. Especially seeing that I-and many others-are getting the feeling he may never finish this thing.

 

[jomar]

I was very impressed with the show until last week

I have no issue with characters having bad things befall them, the book is full of that, but as upsetting as Red Wedding was it was pretty true to the book

What happened last Sunday(I won't spoil it) was atrocious. The total opposite of what happened in the book and to me totally destroyed two characters.

Martin claims he wasn't "in on" that scene. He didn't seem happy about what happened and I don't blame him.

The show is shocking enough without the directors trying to go over the top.

I'm so upset that I'm skipping tonight and might walk away altogether. Especially seeing that I-and many others-are getting the feeling he may never finish this thing.

Are you talking about the Jaime/Cersei sex scene?

 

[DirtyAllie]

Are you talking about the Jaime/Cersei sex scene?

Yes.

In the book she has some initial resistance, but succumbs consensually. There is an article on yahoo where they even quote the passage "Oh, my sweet brother" etc....

That was rape and is destroyed where they were going with Jamie(who supposedly has a code) it also destroys his love for his sister, which although sick of coarse was love.

This was HBO, oh its been to long since something shocking happened, because let's face it the a-hole kicking off was great, not shocking so....

It just becomes now where do they go that they have screwed the dynamic between two characters and what else will they decide to take upon themselves.

Just too bad they felt the need to screw with a successful formula.

 

[PennLady]

Are you talking about the Jaime/Cersei sex scene?

Yes, I'm pretty sure they are. And it was a tough scene to watch, and not like the books (which was consensual after some initial resistance by Cersei).

I have read some articles about this. This one (http://www.pajiba.com/think_pieces/...-murder-and-rape-differently.php#.U12TQsdfnK0) was less about scene itself and more about why it's so upsetting. The conclusion, and I'm not saying I agree, is that sexual crimes are simply more upsetting than others.

So we have seen Jamie have sex with his sister, push a boy off a window (for seeing same), be generally pissy to people, kill a young boy, but what upsets more people is that he raped his sister. I think this is also difficult because he was on a path of change, perhaps even redemption, and he went so far as to prevent the rape of another woman -- and then he came and raped his sister.

However, this is the show. The books are not terribly kind to women either in the sense that since it is based partly on medieval history, not exactly a time of equality for the sexes (or other divisions), this is going to happen. If they did this solely for shock value, then I'll be annoyed. If they did this and it opens up different/new avenues in the story, then I'll be curious.

 

[DirtyAllie]

Yes, I'm pretty sure they are. And it was a tough scene to watch, and not like the books (which was consensual after some initial resistance by Cersei).

I have read some articles about this. This one (http://www.pajiba.com/think_pieces/...-murder-and-rape-differently.php#.U12TQsdfnK0) was less about scene itself and more about why it's so upsetting. The conclusion, and I'm not saying I agree, is that sexual crimes are simply more upsetting than others.

So we have seen Jamie have sex with his sister, push a boy off a window (for seeing same), be generally pissy to people, kill a young boy, but what upsets more people is that he raped his sister. I think this is also difficult because he was on a path of change, perhaps even redemption, and he went so far as to prevent the rape of another woman -- and then he came and raped his sister.

However, this is the show. The books are not terribly kind to women either in the sense that since it is based partly on medieval history, not exactly a time of equality for the sexes (or other divisions), this is going to happen. If they did this solely for shock value, then I'll be annoyed. If they did this and it opens up different/new avenues in the story, then I'll be curious.

Well yes, rape is upsetting in general, and good point that Jaimie has done some pretty bad things.

But.....yes he was on a better path(albeit from being crippled) and he was in love with his sister.

But most upsetting is this was not in the book and will now undoubtedly set off a chain reaction because now a lot of things will be skewed.

There has been a lot of violence and torture in this series, but I don't recall a rape scene. Did they put this in there because they felt its time they had one?

But if it were in the book then it would have been like Red Wedding, yes it was pretty tough to take, but it was true to the series.

HBO has seemed to decide they have had enough of a good thing.

 

[jomar]

Thanks DA. Definitely less rapey in the book, but seems to me she essentially let it happen...will look at it again. Given who she is if she didn't want it/wasn't conflicted she would have shoved a dagger through his heart.

 

[jomar]

PL, an interesting juxtaposition is that Jaime couldn't control his lust for his sister at a time when he is otherwise becoming fairly noble.

 

[PennLady]

Well yes, rape is upsetting in general, and good point that Jaimie has done some pretty bad things.

But.....yes he was on a better path(albeit from being crippled) and he was in love with his sister.

But most upsetting is this was not in the book and will now undoubtedly set off a chain reaction because now a lot of things will be skewed.

There has been a lot of violence and torture in this series, but I don't recall a rape scene. Did they put this in there because they felt its time they had one?

But if it were in the book then it would have been like Red Wedding, yes it was pretty tough to take, but it was true to the series.

HBO has seemed to decide they have had enough of a good thing.

But a number of things have been changed from the books. The first and biggest (in many ways) is that the Stark children were aged up, as was Danaerys. Some characters are not there, such as Strong Belwas. Robb's wife, Talisa, was not in the books as such. All of these changes mean different dynamics in the show than in the books.

So, Jamie/Cersei in the crypt. It's not just this scene that's different in the show, it's the lead up as well, and that puts it all in a different tlight.

Book: Jamie returns to King's Landing *after* Joffrey's death and finds Cersei in the crypt. They have sex, which Cersei initially resists, although IIRC, it's more because of the inappropriateness of it than that she doesn't want to have sex with Jamie.

Series: Jamie returns to King's Landing some time -- weeks, maybe? -- before Joffrey's wedding. Cersei rejects him, blaming circumstances that were beyond his control. Both Cersei and his father see him as less than a man b/c of the loss of his sword hand, and he has time to stew over this prior to Joffrey's wedding. Joffrey taunts Jamie during the security of discussion, another insult. Then, during the wedding, Joffrey is killed, meaning the entire Kingsguard -- led by Jamie -- is at fault.

My point here is not to excuse the rape, because there is no excuse for it. However, I do think they laid the foundation for Jamie to do this in terms of the story. He is an angry, desperate man doing the wrong thing to try to get back the one woman he (thinks he?) loves.

Anyway I guess what I'm saying is that for me, this did not ruin Jamie's character, nor the show. There are were far worse things done to other people that I would cite as reason not to watch, such as Joffrey's scene with the two prostitutes, not to mention what he did to Ros.

The dynamic is different between Jamie and Cersei, true, but it was never quite the same as in the book anyway, and I will give the writers/directors/creators some leeway and watch to see what they do next.

 

[PennLady]

PL, an interesting juxtaposition is that Jaime couldn't control his lust for his sister at a time when he is otherwise becoming fairly noble.

There is that, and Jamie himself says to his father that basically, he is trying to be an honorable man because that's all he has left. I think, as I said in my previous post, that Jamie is also an angry, frustrated, desperate man and this leads him to do something awful. Now to see the fall out.

 

[DirtyAllie]

Thanks DA. Definitely less rapey in the book, but seems to me she essentially let it happen...will look at it again. Given who she is if she didn't want it/wasn't conflicted she would have shoved a dagger through his heart.

What bothers me is why the need? Even in the book they were fucking on their son's casket basically, that is not shocking enough?

And she would never hurt Jaimie and I am sure thought he would never hurt her.

The fact is they blew it. Flat out stone cold blew it. Because now their interaction has to change from what it was in the rest of the books. So now they have set themselves on a divergent path to who knows where? Odds are they don't and I think this will have a domino effect in how the series goes from here.

Maybe HBO was upset that fans of the books were leaking spoilers and wanted to pull the "so you think you know" game. Well they really could not have picked a worse thing to change.

People become emotionally vested in these people and if the books deem they die or are hurt then we have to deal with that. But now its a case of them saying, "Fuck the books and the characters we'll do what we want."

Well I think they're going to get a pretty big fuck you back on this one.

I also wonder about the effect it will have on Martin who admittedly is struggling as it is. These are his babies and now they have been warped out of what they were.

What is HBO going to do start telling him how they want the last book/books written based on what they have blundered?

I think I am going to drift off the series and wait to see if it finishes. I'm not going to invest time in something that could never end or if it does HBO decides "Nah, it should end this way."

 

[PennLady]

What bothers me is why the need? Even in the book they were fucking on their son's casket basically, that is not shocking enough?

In the books, Robb's wife is *not* killed at the Red Wedding (she's also not Talisa; she is Jayne Westerling). Was it not shocking enough for the Starks to be betrayed and killed? Did they have to stab Talisa in the abdomen as well?

You could go back and forth on a lot of this stuff, and to a great extent it all comes down to the Weiss and Benioff and the decisions they make for creativity, or whatever you want to call it.

The fact is they blew it. Flat out stone cold blew it. Because now their interaction has to change from what it was in the rest of the books. So now they have set themselves on a divergent path to who knows where? Odds are they don't and I think this will have a domino effect in how the series goes from here.

But books/movies rarely follow their source material so very faithfully (BBC's Pride & Prejudice miniseries excepted). And Jamie and Cersei do fall apart in the books. They're just doing it differently here.

What is HBO going to do start telling him how they want the last book/books written based on what they have blundered?

I think I am going to drift off the series and wait to see if it finishes. I'm not going to invest time in something that could never end or if it does HBO decides "Nah, it should end this way."

I read some time ago, and wish I could figure out how to find it, that HBO and Martin had discussed ending the TV series if he didn't/couldn't finish the books. Also, HBO could just decide to end the series regardless of where Martin is in his process. I know they've renewed it for two more seasons, but still.

Perhaps it's because I've watched Walking Dead, which I know has strayed immensely from the comic series (which I have not read), but I'm just not too concerned about this. Other things have also been changed, and this is simply one more, albeit with more major characters.

I'll be curious to see viewing figures for tonight's episode, but I don't expect to see a huge decline.

 

[DirtyAllie]

I think-and like you can't remember where- That I read that if they look like they are going to catch up with the books they are going to do a season that goes backwards. I think to the mad kings reign.

To me that's kiss of death, the "We're stalling!" tactic.

And I do recall Robb's wife(who I never liked) did not die. I think in the show it was about, "Okay, we are going to be rebooting from here, for our purposes she is a loose end, kill her off" type of thing.

 

[PennLady]

I think-and like you can't remember where- That I read that if they look like they are going to catch up with the books they are going to do a season that goes backwards. I think to the mad kings reign.

To me that's kiss of death, the "We're stalling!" tactic.

And I do recall Robb's wife(who I never liked) did not die. I think in the show it was about, "Okay, we are going to be rebooting from here, for our purposes she is a loose end, kill her off" type of thing.

I had not read about that, but it could be interesting, I guess. What I had read at least implied that they had worked out a way to end the series if he didn't finish the books. Or, I guess, if HBO canceled the series.

And if they can "reboot" with Robb's wife, why can they not do this with Jamie and Cersei? After all, in the book, Jeyne (sp?) is pregnant, which means that there is a future Stark descendant who could claim Winterfell, and/or be a rallying point for a rebellion. So they just dumped that whole thing.

 

[Bramblethorn]

However, this is the show. The books are not terribly kind to women either in the sense that since it is based partly on medieval history, not exactly a time of equality for the sexes (or other divisions), this is going to happen. If they did this solely for shock value, then I'll be annoyed. If they did this and it opens up different/new avenues in the story, then I'll be curious.

I don't like "based on medieval history" as an explanation here. Authors pick and choose which things they want to keep from real life (or their perception of RL - not always the same thing!) and GRRM has done plenty of that along the way: prophetic visions, telepathic wolves, dragons, twenty-year winters, and an incredible amount of social stasis - Westeros seems to have been a quasi-medieval society for around ten thousand years now, without evolving past that.

So if the story's brutal and rapey, it's not because the Medieval Authenticity Police forced him (or in this case forced the TV writers); it's because that's the story he chose to write. Not saying he's wrong to make that choice, just that it should be understood as a choice.

I'm not a historian, but there's some interesting discussion here suggesting that the general level of violence presented in GoT is excessive and unsustainable even by medieval standards: http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/74505170627/things-were-just-like-that-back-then-thoughts-on

 

[jomar]

DA, being a Reacher Creature who was highly aggrieved that 5' 6" Tom Cruise played 6' 5" Jack Reacher in the movie, I get your passion. But, there's lots do differences in the series though it seems to stay true to the heart of the books.

 

[PennLady]

I don't like "based on medieval history" as an explanation here. Authors pick and choose which things they want to keep from real life (or their perception of RL - not always the same thing!) and GRRM has done plenty of that along the way: prophetic visions, telepathic wolves, dragons, twenty-year winters, and an incredible amount of social stasis - Westeros seems to have been a quasi-medieval society for around ten thousand years now, without evolving past that.

So if the story's brutal and rapey, it's not because the Medieval Authenticity Police forced him (or in this case forced the TV writers); it's because that's the story he chose to write. Not saying he's wrong to make that choice, just that it should be understood as a choice.

I'm not a historian, but there's some interesting discussion here suggesting that the general level of violence presented in GoT is excessive and unsustainable even by medieval standards: http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/74505170627/things-were-just-like-that-back-then-thoughts-on

I don't mean to use "history" as an excuse for things. I think it's more a matter of plausibility, or dare I say, "truthiness." That is, the things that happen in the show seem plausible to us today (well, me anyway) because it was a rougher, less advanced time during the War of the Roses, which is where Martin has drawn a lot of his inspiration.

So yes, everyone couldn't have been spying and murdering and warring, because then things would fall apart. As the article points out, you need people to grow the crops, tend the animals, raise the children, etc.

I know that Martin's portrayal of men, women, various races, etc., are his choices and that's fine. I'm just saying that probably for many people, with a rather cursory knowledge of similar times, what happens in the show is believable *enough*.

 

[PennLady]

Found this article at the AV club, listing some differences between the books and the shows, and there are many things here I'd forgotten about or not known.

http://www.avclub.com/article/well-actually-books-15-differences-text-tv-game-th-203713

 

[soflabbwlvr]

I had not read about that, but it could be interesting, I guess. What I had read at least implied that they had worked out a way to end the series if he didn't finish the books. Or, I guess, if HBO canceled the series.

The show has been renewed through six seasons, so far. HBO would like to go to 8, Weiss and Benioff are thinking 7. The producers have met with GRRM and discussed what happens when the show (inevitably) passes the books. With Martin's blessing, the show will write its own ending that may or may not be the same as the ending of the book series.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

Yes, I'm pretty sure they are. And it was a tough scene to watch, and not like the books (which was consensual after some initial resistance by Cersei).

I have read some articles about this. This one (http://www.pajiba.com/think_pieces/...-murder-and-rape-differently.php#.U12TQsdfnK0) was less about scene itself and more about why it's so upsetting. The conclusion, and I'm not saying I agree, is that sexual crimes are simply more upsetting than others.

So we have seen Jamie have sex with his sister, push a boy off a window (for seeing same), be generally pissy to people, kill a young boy, but what upsets more people is that he raped his sister. I think this is also difficult because he was on a path of change, perhaps even redemption, and he went so far as to prevent the rape of another woman -- and then he came and raped his sister.

However, this is the show. The books are not terribly kind to women either in the sense that since it is based partly on medieval history, not exactly a time of equality for the sexes (or other divisions), this is going to happen. If they did this solely for shock value, then I'll be annoyed. If they did this and it opens up different/new avenues in the story, then I'll be curious.

This is an internet controversy and nothing more. Jaime and Cersei sex scenes always follow the same dynamic: Jaime initiates physicality, Cersei voices a tepid objection, Jaime persists, Cersei gives in and they fuck. It happens the same way every time, including this time. Go back and look at their prior scenes and you'll see it.

I watched this with my wife, who was outraged that anyone would call it rape. If it was rape, then why was Cersei kissing Jaime and wrapping her leg around him? My sisters made similar points.

The problem for some viewers is that they have short attention spans, they have forgotten who Jaime Lanister really is, and they are applying 20th century definitions of rape to the fictional kingdom of Westeros. Where was the outcry when Joffrey beat women, forced them to use evil looking dildos on each other, and he shot one with a crossbow? How about Craster raping generations of his daughters? Cat's crazy sister nursing her 12 year old son--in public? Viserys trading his underage sister for an army (he thought)? I could go on and on. The Jaime/Cersei scene doesn't even crack the top 10 of worst things to happen on this show.