Interesting....

[Samandiriel]

US needs more soul-searching after September 11: author

NEW YORK (Reuters) - U.S. authors and film makers have failed to prompt soul-searching on how Americans contributed to the September 11 attacks, the author of a new bestseller on the events said on Tuesday.

"I feel like it's been a great failure of our artists and writers that we haven't done a better job at looking at ourselves and how we are and how our own behavior, to some extent, contributed to this tragedy," said Lawrence Wright, whose book "The Looming Tower" hit bookstores on Tuesday.

Almost five years after the attacks that killed nearly 3,000 people and amid a media frenzy this week surrounding the release of director Oliver Stone's new movie "World Trade Center," the book debuted on top of the Amazon.com bestseller list after good early reviews.

"America has lost so much standing in the world and we're going to have to do a lot to recapture it, but it begins with self-examination and I don't think that we have gone through that," Wright told Reuters in a phone interview.

Wright, a staff writer at The New Yorker magazine, spent five years researching and writing his book, which he described as a bid to understand and explain the rise of Islamic extremism.

"When bin Laden attacked America he was posing two questions to us. One is: 'What is America and what does it stand for?' and the other is: 'What is Islam and what does it stand for?"' he said.

"We phrase (the first question) to ourselves as 'Is it because of who we are or what we do?' I think that for the most part it's what we do," said Wright, pointing to U.S. policies in the Middle East. "It's not really because of who we are."

The United States has long faced criticism in the Arab and Islamic worlds for a perceived pro-Israeli bias, and many of its Middle East policies are unpopular in the region.

Wright said the United States had lost sight of what he called its core values, particularly the rule of law and a code of decency.

"I don't think any American thought we would be in this posture five years after 9/11," he said. "There's a lot of rebuilding that we have to do to get back to the country we thought we were."

Some aspects of Washington's post-2001 fight against terrorism, including the war in Iraq and the treatment of suspected militants, have come under attack from critics who say the United States is not living up to its own human rights standards.

President Bush acknowledged in June that the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, had hurt the United States' image abroad.
********************


Discuss. 5 years later how far have we come?? how did it impact us not just in the states, how do non Americans feel as well? We say too soon about the movies but have we really remembered how we felt that day?

 

[Belegon]

In the immediate aftermath we showed the best of what we can be; we filled up the boots of firefighters at stoplights with money, came together without regard for color or creed...even the most immediate of the "foreign pol9icy adventures" was, IMHO, very justified and even necessary...that being the ousting of the Taliban and all that went with it.

but the farther we have gotten from 9/11 the less it is used to promote charity and the more it is used to justify violence.

And that is one of the reasons I say it is not inappropriate to make movies that remind us what really happened that day. Yes, it is painful...no it is not defiling. The people who defile the honor of those who perished are those who use the tragic loss of life to promote further loss of life.

 

[rgraham666]

Wright said the United States had lost sight of what he called its core values, particularly the rule of law and a code of decency.

I disagree with this one. Most of the Americans I know are fine and decent people.

Unfortunately, the people who lead them are not. And I am not speaking, strictly, about the current administration.

If I may, my opinion on why this happens has to do with a major dichotomy in the U.S. collective psyche.

On one hand, as I pointed out, most Americans are decent people who believe in the rule of law.

On the other, there is a worship of 'success'. And generally people who 'succeed' are admired no matter how they got ahead.

This latter trait often overwhelms the former, which results in people who shouldn't have power getting it.

Also, America is going through a major change. It's no longer the 'indispensable nation'. It is now merely 'first among equals' and soon to be second when China surpasses them. I'm afraid America isn't handling this change very well.

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

We say too soon about the movies but have we really remembered how we felt that day?

I do remember how I felt that day. I had just gotten home from walking the two eldest to school. I reached down to turn the news to Sesame Street, for my son, when I noticed the WTC building on fire and then the second plane struck. I stumbled back to my seat and watched in disbelief. I then called my husband and while talking to him the Pentagon was hit. I felt numb. I sat in the chair for hours until it was time to pick up one kid from Kindergarten. I was so relieved to have a reason to leave my television. I walked to school pushing the stroller with my son in it and I breathed. It felt like the first breath I had taken since I sat down in that chair.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I do remember how I felt that day. I had just gotten home from walking the two eldest to school. I reached down to turn the news to Sesame Street, for my son, when I noticed the WTC building on fire and then the second plane struck. I stumbled back to my seat and watched in disbelief. I then called my husband and while talking to him the Pentagon was hit. I felt numb. I sat in the chair for hours until it was time to pick up one kid from Kindergarten. I was so relieved to have a reason to leave my television. I walked to school pushing the stroller with my son in it and I breathed. It felt like the first breath I had taken since I sat down in that chair.

It may be even different that people are saying. I may be not that it's too soon. It may be that (A) we are too close to the story at this point as a society to see the WTC for what it was and (B) everyone who wants to show it to us again and again are doing it not in the memorial sense but with a money motivation.

Just a thought

 

[rgraham666]

I'll confess to not being shocked by what happened on 9/11.

But then I pay a fair bit of attention to the world. And I know that twice as many people die every day in all the piddling little conflicts that take place all over the world as died that day.

And as many people die from gunshots every month in America.

The former doesn't get much attention in the media as much of America isn't that interested in the rest of the world. It's a legacy of their history. The first people there, besides the natives, were running from the world and Americans have retained the habit of not paying much attention to it.

The latter is 'normal' so people shrug and accept it.

Because of these things, 9/11 holds a special place in America's psyche. The outside world intruded on its complacency, and it wasn't normal. So 9/11 holds a big place in its collective thinking.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I'll confess to not being shocked by what happened on 9/11.

But then I pay a fair bit of attention to the world. And I know that twice as many people die every day in all the piddling little conflicts that take place all over the world as died that day.

And as many people die from gunshots every month in America.

The former doesn't get much attention in the media as much of America isn't that interested in the rest of the world. It's a legacy of their history. The first people there, besides the natives, were running from the world and Americans have retained the habit of not paying much attention to it.

The latter is 'normal' so people shrug and accept it.

Because of these things, 9/11 holds a special place in America's psyche. The outside world intruded on its complacency, and it wasn't normal. So 9/11 holds a big place in its collective thinking.

I think the fact that this happened on American soil is what made such and impact, that and the fact that we believed no one could touch us.
As you say, many people are massacred daily around the world and no one blinks an eye. We don't know what its like to live in such areas of the world, we don't face that daily, no one is dropping bombs on us daily or oppressing us. We need to be mindful of that and grateful, material wealth means nothing when you don't have a home, designer clothes will do no good if they become rags, plasma tv's don't work when your generators are cut off. We need a mighty big slice of humble pie.

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

I think the fact that this happened on American soil is what made such and impact, that and the fact that we believed no one could touch us.
As you say, many people are massacred daily around the world and no one blinks an eye. We don't know what its like to live in such areas of the world, we don't face that daily, no one is dropping bombs on us daily or oppressing us. We need to be mindful of that and grateful, material wealth means nothing when you don't have a home, designer clothes will do no good if they become rags, plasma tv's don't work when your generators are cut off. We need a mighty big slice of humble pie.

I agree. The fact that it happened on US soil was shocking. IT doesn't happen here. IT doesn't happen to AMERICA. . . then we wake up and IT is happening here. We aren't immune. We aren't special. We are a target just like everyone else.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I may be exposing myself to some substantial abuse by saying this but I don't have many of the same feelings about 9/11 that are being expressed here.

First of all, I don't believe the west coast (where I'm at) has nearly the emotional reaction that those on the east coast do. For one thing, it's just too far away. For another most of us haven't seen what happened there. I remember clearly watching the incident live on television, but it could have just as well been Tokyo or Munich, not New York. Television and the news clips just don't carry that kind of impact.

Second, this country was complacent far too long in a world of growing terrorism. We knew about the Saurin attack in Tokyo, the Madrid Bombing and so on. We watched it on our televisions and we did nothing more than shake our heads and say, "Poor them." We believed it would never happen here, even after the first WTC bombing.

As it happens, I have a close personal friend who lost her husband at the WTC on 9/11. But still, for me, it's too far away, too unattached. This feeling is reinforced by the "Anti-Terrorism" steps that immediately followed the 9/11 Disaster. Homeland Security received $207,000,000,000 in funding between 2002 and 2005. According to the HLS website by 2003 there was greater inter-departmental and inter-service communications, inproved security for disaster relief, increased security at our borders and so on. But Homeland Security proved it's worth in the Katrina Disaster. Homeland Security has shown how well our borders are secured after 9/11 with hundreds of thousands of "undocumented" hispanics crossing our borders anually, a number that has increased dramatically over the pre-9/11 years.

So with the expenditure of some $207 BILLIONS coupled with Homeland Security's record I'm supposed to feel safer than I did in 2001? Frankly, I don't feel any safer today than I did then. I do feel less secure in the loss of personal freedom that has come about because of the disaster. But that's another issue.

JJ

 

[Carnevil9]

"I feel like it's been a great failure of our artists and writers that we haven't done a better job at looking at ourselves and how we are and how our own behavior, to some extent, contributed to this tragedy," said Lawrence Wright, whose book "The Looming Tower" hit bookstores on Tuesday.

If someone had applied this same logic to a rape victim, and asked what she had done to encourage the attack, they would have been ripped to shreds......Carney

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

If someone had applied this same logic to a rape victim, and asked what she had done to encourage the attack, they would have been ripped to shreds......Carney

Probably, Carney

But the commentary on what happened on 9/11 is more a matter of blame shifting for the most part rather than an honest look at what was going on in 2001. It was terrorists! It was Iraqis. It was Al Quida. In fact, most of the terrorists were Egyptians and Saudis. It may have been an Al Quida plot but Al Quida is run by a Saudi who seems to be uncatchable.

Sometimes I wonder if there is really any concerted effort to erase terrorism or if it is allowed to continue because it serves the re-election purposes of the current administration. And yes, I see the Bush administration as just that Machaivellian.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

I may be exposing myself to some substantial abuse by saying this but I don't have many of the same feelings about 9/11 that are being expressed here.

First of all, I don't believe the west coast (where I'm at) has nearly the emotional reaction that those on the east coast do. For one thing, it's just too far away. For another most of us haven't seen what happened there. I remember clearly watching the incident live on television, but it could have just as well been Tokyo or Munich, not New York. Television and the news clips just don't carry that kind of impact.

Second, this country was complacent far too long in a world of growing terrorism. We knew about the Saurin attack in Tokyo, the Madrid Bombing and so on. We watched it on our televisions and we did nothing more than shake our heads and say, "Poor them." We believed it would never happen here, even after the first WTC bombing.

As it happens, I have a close personal friend who lost her husband at the WTC on 9/11. But still, for me, it's too far away, too unattached.

I think this is a good point. The fact that most of us saw it on television, iwht merely the acknowledgment that it took place on American soil, didn't necessarily make it that much more real to us.

Also, I think the extent of how we should feel about it has gotten lost in the ensuing politics, being dealt by both sides continuously as a result of the tragedy, make it more a thought to be considered, than something to be felt and pondered in an of itself.

Basically, the political circus has somehow buried the point, and we're all too caught up in that to really know how we should feel about it.

This feeling is reinforced by the "Anti-Terrorism" steps that immediately followed the 9/11 Disaster. Homeland Security received $207,000,000,000 in funding between 2002 and 2005. According to the HLS website by 2003 there was greater inter-departmental and inter-service communications, inproved security for disaster relief, increased security at our borders and so on. But Homeland Security proved it's worth in the Katrina Disaster. Homeland Security has shown how well our borders are secured after 9/11 with hundreds of thousands of "undocumented" hispanics crossing our borders anually, a number that has increased dramatically over the pre-9/11 years.

So with the expenditure of some $207 BILLIONS coupled with Homeland Security's record I'm supposed to feel safer than I did in 2001? Frankly, I don't feel any safer today than I did then. I do feel less secure in the loss of personal freedom that has come about because of the disaster. But that's another issue.

JJ

That last part was right. This entire part of your post is another issue. It's political, and while that doesn't make it wrong to have such an opinion, or even to state it, it's this type of statement, on so many threads here, that make everything political, and nothing much else. It distracts greatly, if not entirely, from what seems to be the point of this thread: How we, as artists, have not introspected and paid homage to the lessons that should be learned from the tragedy, or at least as to whether or not we have. Or perhaps just to respond to the contents of the article itself, even besides that.

Q_C

 

[3113]

It's not a matter of whether the events of 9/11 shocked you, or whether you felt close to them or distant.

There are events that happen which are like a skip in the music. It doesn't matter where they happen or what you feel about them, what matters is that they draw the attention of the world. They cause the world to pause. And for better or worse, they make the world react and think. Soul-search.

Not just a group of people or a city or a country...the world. Humanity pauses.

9/11 did that. The world paused. And this is why it was important. And this is why it was a turning point. It's a fork in the road, primarily for the U.S., but for a lot of the rest of the world as well.

In the end, thanks to our government, but also thanks to the complicity of at least half the citizens of the U.S., we took the wrong road in that fork. That pause got everyone's eyes on us, and we had their hearts as well. We could have taken the high road--we even seemed to be going that way--people bought books on Islam to try and understand. We could, while still reacting strongly, have also used this moment to examine why it happened and how to fix relationships so that it didn't happen again in the future with some OTHER Islamic group of country.

We allowed ourselves, instead, to be taken down the low road. We gave into chauvinism (patriotism), fear, anger and a need to feel in control and in power. We gave into the need to flex our muscles and prove we weren't weak. We gave into that and we should not have.

The soul-searching moment was five years ago. It's gone. The article is, I think, ridiculous. Consider how many years it took for the movie Tora, Tora, Tora to be made giving the Japanese pov of the bombing of Pearl Harbor. 9/11 has been sanctified, and there's no being objective or soul-searching about it. Not while we're still walking the road that it put us on--or rather the road we decided to be on because of it.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

It's not a matter of whether the events of 9/11 shocked you, or whether you felt close to them or distant.

There are events that happen which are like a skip in the music. It doesn't matter where they happen or what you feel about them, what matters is that they draw the attention of the world. They cause the world to pause. And for better or worse, they make the world react and think. Soul-search.

Not just a group of people or a city or a country...the world. Humanity pauses.

9/11 did that. The world paused. And this is why it was important. And this is why it was a turning point. It's a fork in the road, primarily for the U.S., but for a lot of the rest of the world as well.

In the end, thanks to our government, but also thanks to the complicity of at least half the citizens of the U.S., we took the wrong road in that fork. That pause got everyone's eyes on us, and we had their hearts as well. We could have taken the high road--we even seemed to be going that way--people bought books on Islam to try and understand. We could, while still reacting strongly, have also used this moment to examine why it happened and how to fix relationships so that it didn't happen again in the future with some OTHER Islamic group of country.

We allowed ourselves, instead, to be taken down the low road. We gave into chauvinism (patriotism), fear, anger and a need to feel in control and in power. We gave into the need to flex our muscles and prove we weren't weak. We gave into that and we should not have.

The soul-searching moment was five years ago. It's gone. The article is, I think, ridiculous. Consider how many years it took for the movie Tora, Tora, Tora to be made giving the Japanese pov of the bombing of Pearl Harbor. 9/11 has been sanctified, and there's no being objective or soul-searching about it. Not while we're still walking the road that it put us on--or rather the road we decided to be on because of it.

You've summed things up beautifully.

 

[Carnevil9]

Sometimes I wonder if there is really any concerted effort to erase terrorism or if it is allowed to continue because it serves the re-election purposes of the current administration. And yes, I see the Bush administration as just that Machaivellian.

Are you saying that you think the Bush administration is going to try to repeal the 22nd amendment? That's a new one......Carney

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Are you saying that you think the Bush administration is going to try to repeal the 22nd amendment? That's a new one......Carney

No. I didn't say that. What I am saying is terrorism is a political act. Everything that has occured since 9/11 has been a political act. And, given that, why would the government want to press to stop terrorism completely when it plays into their own adjunda?

Have they searched for Al Quida? Yes. Could they do more to fine Bin Laudin and his cohorts? I think so.

 

[LadyJeanne]

9/11 brought out the best in America...for about 15 minutes.

Since then, it's brought out the worst in America.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

9/11 brought out the best in America...for about 15 minutes.

Since then, it's brought out the worst in America.

That's very true, Lady J...

The real unfortunate part is because we've acted the way we have the rest of the world sees us as a bunch of retards. The U.S. has lost their prestige and the respect of the world.

 

[LadyJeanne]

That's very true, Lady J...

The real unfortunate part is because we've acted the way we have the rest of the world sees us as a bunch of retards. The U.S. has lost their prestige and the respect of the world.

Actually, I think it's worse than that. I think we're seen as predators. The Red, White and Blue Menace.

 

[champagne1982]

The world lost that pink flush of innocence on its western profile. Gone was the blithe attitude of being above it all. The oceans are not so broad as to shield America from the rest of civilization.

Fear became the motivation for the first world's behaviour and has maintained that status since. It would be nice to look at a stranger and not believe he could be my enemy once again. But, that can't happen until fear takes a back seat to charity.

 

[rgraham666]

Actually, I think it's worse than that. I think we're seen as predators. The Red, White and Blue Menace.

That is unfortunately so, LadyJ.

I just finished rereading a very good book on this subject, Future: Tense by Gwynne Dyer.

A most interesting observation in this book was how the neo-cons in America and the Islamist in the Islamic world have become 'objective allies'. Although they are opposed to each other, they need each other, and every action they take helps the other.

So 9/11 strengthened the neo-cons, and helped them achieve their goals. And the invasion of Iraq helped the Islamists and is helping them to achieve their goals. Strange, but true.

I was also pondering last night, and this thought came to mind. I've read that about half the adult population in America is functionally illiterate. Now to me, literacy is not simply about the ability to read, but about the knowledge that can be obtained through reading.

So I'm wondering, is the mess the U.S. gotten itself into linked to the high illiteracy rate?

 

[3113]

So I'm wondering, is the mess the U.S. gotten itself into linked to the high illiteracy rate?

Well, yes and no. Russia under it's corrupt communist government had one of the most literate and best read populations, which might have made it more aware that it was miserable but didn't help it to change. That reqiried that it spend too much money on trying to beat the U.S. (hmmm, do we see a corollary?). And Germany under Nazism was, I believe, a well read and civilized country.

It would be nice to think that a population that reads would avert such things, but I don't know that they do. I think they CAN, but you can't trust that they necessarily WILL.

America, of course, has never trusted the smart and educated. Jimmy Carter sold himself to the U.S. voters as "peanut farmer" NOT a Nuclear Engineer (he was both). And Clinton sold himself as a "poor boy from Hope, AK" not as a "Rhodes Scholar" which he was.

Certainly, however, the fact that most Americans are illiterate means that they must rely on television for their information, and the less they know, the more they'll go for television information that is simple and uncomplicted--that doesn't use big words. Fox News presents the world pretty much as black-and-white, us-against-them, and people like this.

Certainly religious fundamentalists, who don't want people reading other opinions and questioning the tenents of their faith like it. I know a guy who converted to his wife's church, and has since become so religious that he wanted to get a degree in religion and become a minister. His church has discouraged this, telling him that studying for the minstry leads to "too much thinking!"

Thing is, however, most of these folk don't vote. Heck, those that can read don't vote. In the last election, only 25% of the voting population voted. That means that Bush won by a small margin over 1/8th of the voters. The other 3/4th of U.S. voters didn't bother. That they're not literate might well contribute to the fact that they didn't vote.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

That's very true, Lady J...

The real unfortunate part is because we've acted the way we have the rest of the world sees us as a bunch of retards. The U.S. has lost their prestige and the respect of the world.

I don't think this is nearly as true as people would like to believe. The problem was, before 9/11, not only did we is the U.S. feel untouchable, the rest of the world saw us as that. They looked up to us to a degree because they felt we were what they wished they were, regardless of the arrogance that we tended to carry ourselves with. Like 3113 pointed out, the world paused. Everyone saw it. We weren't untouchable, and that arrogance was merely a side-effect of our own blindness, in point to our blindness to the weaknesses we had toward such attacks from enemies abroad. I don't think the primary damage was done afterward, but before, with our arrogance, the insistance that we were above the worries of other nations, but our lack of concern for them. Then, all of a sudden, just like that, we're on thier level.

We look like retards because we thought so highly of ourselves, offered little concern for those suffering from this particular plight, and in the matter of minutes, were receiving aid offers from other countries, something that was repeated during Katrina, that we felt we were above just moments ago. Humble pie? No. We aren't less arrogant. That arrogance has merely shifted. It's gone from being more national, to being more party oriented. We're not ready to accept that, as a whole, the U.S. was vulnerable, or is vulnerable. It's this person's fault, or that person's fault. Things would be better if so-and-so were in office. It's now the arrogance of the Republicans vs. the arrogance of the Democrats. The arrogance of the conservatives vs. the arrogance of the Liberals.

What's happened since then...? Well, it has most certainly affected the whole of world politics. But the seeds were there, already planted, waiting for the sun to shed light on them.

Q_C

 

[rgraham666]

I'm thinking of a line from the book I mentioned.

"…an electorate less comfortable with nuance and complexity than most."

When you mentioned about past Presidents selling themselves as 'simple' bought that to mind.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I'm thinking of a line from the book I mentioned.

"…an electorate less comfortable with nuance and complexity than most."

When you mentioned about past Presidents selling themselves as 'simple' bought that to mind.

George W. Bush grew up in a rural Log Mansion in New Hampshire. A studeous young man who read law book by the fireplace while playing with his Super Nintendo. Then he became an oil man and moved to the wilderness of Texas where he eaked out a living on his modest 20,000 acre homestead.

RGraham, somehow, that doesn't work for me. Never has, never will.