Individual v Reality

[haldir]

"The individual is the only reality. The further we move away from the individual towards abstract ideas about Homo sapiens , the more likely we are to fall into error."


Interesting postulate I think, and much as I admire this person I can't agree. It is not even consistent with his own thoeries.

Come on you axe grinders - lets have a god discussion.

Starter - who said this?

 

[Pure]

Rand? Stirner?

 

[BlackShanglan]

I agree with your disagreement. Many of the worst ideas and policies seem to me to come from an intense individual focus and the inaccurate assumption that "what is true in your own private heart is true for all men." It isn't, and it's dangerous to assume that everyone in the world shares one's own goals and will be glad of a shove in the direction of achieving them.

Don't know the source of your quote. Mine's from Emerson. But what can one expect from a "transparent eyeball"?

Shanglan

 

[brightlyiburn]

I dunno. It's incredibly true that a lack of individualism causes a lot of problems. It's the mob mentality.
Think about it. When you're bullied in school, it's because you're not like everyone else. When there's a war, it's because one group doesn't agree with another groups ideas. Things like the KKK...all people who believed the only people who deserved to live were white Christians. When someone who is gay is beaten to death, it's usually by a group of people.
Mob mentality. Too often people refuse to think for themselves.
The idea of living on individualism is flawed in that not everyone adopts it. My philosophy teacher thought the idea of "live and let live" was absurd. In reality, it would work if everyone adopted that policy, but few truly do.

 

[NoJo]

Sounds like it could be Richard Dawkins. In which case it bears thinking about. The man's no fool.

 

[haldir]

quote

It was written by C G Jung - a man that I have a tremendous respect for - but not in this statement.

Understanding the individual is important but understanding the "group" is just as important - how else can we start trying to explain something like the Holocaust?

 

[NoJo]

What I know about Jung could be counted on the fingers of a severed stump, so I couldn't say how inconsistent he's being.

I read a very interesting book a while back called "The Evolution of Cooperation", which explains mechanism by which completely selfish organsms like bacteria and plants can evolve cooperative "behaviour". What's important about it, is it blows away the idea that you need have some sort of "niceness" (which is often seen by bothe Left and Right as a sort of weakness) to see cooperation, charity, social responsibility as beneficial.

 

[Pure]

OK, Haldir, CJ it is.

If the individual is the only reality what the fuck is{What reality is there to} the 'collective unconscious' and what are its archetypes?

It is also ironic, that among the 'intellectuals' this spokeperson for 'individualism' is one who was quite attracted to National Socialism!

Here's a similar one for you to guess. (By the way you never replied to my response about a book you proposed to discuss, by two biologists.)
{{Correction: You make a brief reply but the discussion stalled. In the Philosophers v. Scientists thread.}}

mystery quote

The individual is the true reality in life. A cosmos in himself, he does not exist for the State, nor for that abstraction called "society," or the "nation," which is only a collection of individuals. Man, the individual, has always been and, necessarily is the sole source and motive power of evolution and progress. Civilization has been a continuous struggle of the individual or of groups of individuals against the State and even against "society," that is, against the majority subdued and hypnotized by the State and State worship. Man's greatest battles have been waged against man-made obstacles and artificial handicaps imposed upon him to paralyze his growth and development. Human thought has always been falsified by tradition and custom, and perverted false education in the interests of those who held power and enjoyed privileges. In other words, by the State and the ruling classes. This constant incessant conflict has been the history of mankind.

 

[haldir]

Pure - thats exactly why I cannot agree with it!

 

[amicus]

Pure:

The mystery quote sounds much like Ayn Rand, but it does not seem quite her style and I do not recognize the passage.

Perhaps her protege' Nathaniell Branden, who was fond of using the word 'archetypes' in his essays.

The point made is worth consideration, that being that 'thought' takes place in the mind of one individual. It may be shared with others and agreed with, but 'thought' takes place in the individual mind.

While we choose to be social and exchange labor for mutual benefit, it again all comes back to the 'individual' and his individual thoughts and choices.

Given the freedom to choose, of course, without that there is not choice.

amicus...

 

[Op_Cit]

...What's important about it, is it blows away the idea that you need have some sort of "niceness" (which is often seen by bothe Left and Right as a sort of weakness) to see cooperation, charity, social responsibility as beneficial.

What I think Sub Joe doesn't see, or perhaps the author of that book didn't distinguish, is the cause and effect nature of all things.

He puts the word "charity" in the same phrase with "cooperation" and "social responsibility". That is, he has fallen into the myth that charity is a good, or even ordered, thing. The word "charity" implies the "niceness" factor. Yet charity is more akin to firing a gun in the air.

What people and societies fail to acknowledge is the nature of cause and effect. Specifically, that random and unplanned giveaways are believed to be, by the nature of them being giveaways, "good". Just as people tend to think building a freeway is "good".

A freeway, properly planned with current and future impacts considered and addressed, can be beneficial. But when done without consideration for long term effects on every aspect, it will, 99 times out of 100, end up having a detrimental effect. I have not yet found one that was properly planned.

Now, the phenomena of the "mob mentality" has long been acknowledged. Yet everybody immediately throws this acknowledgement out the window if the "mob" performs "charity".

That is, why do people see the mob performing at the lowest common denominator when they are "bad", but they do not think that is also true when the mob does something they think is "good"?

Here's one of my favorite bits of wisdom, who can name its author?

"Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves."

 

[cloudy]

Here's one of my favorite bits of wisdom, who can name its author?

"Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves."

Tolkien....Gandalf said it, didn't he?

(Amazing, the tidbits your mind stows away for no apparent reason)

 

[rgraham666]

Sigh. The 'only one truth' hypothesis again.

Individualism is fine, until it falls into utter selfishness, where the only thing that matters are your wants and goals. The psychological term for this is psychopathy.

Belonging to and acting for the good of a group is fine, until the group's wants and goals must be followed and those not part of the group become things only good for exploitation and murder. And opposing the group, or even questioning it makes you into one of 'those', a thing.

Each of us must search our heart every day and decide which side of the equation we come down on. We should be aware that if we are right more often than we are wrong, we are ahead of the game.

It may not be the 'smart' thing to do, but it is the good and wise thing.

And who gives a flying fuck what the 'great minds' think?

 

[Op_Cit]

Tolkien....Gandalf said it, didn't he?

(Amazing, the tidbits your mind stows away for no apparent reason)

Bingo. Where do I send the cigar?

 

[cloudy]

Bingo. Where do I send the cigar?

Save it, and enjoy it yourself. I just have one of those weird memories that files things away like that. Now, if I could figure out why I remembered things like that, it might be useful....