Incorrect Assumptions

[wildsweetone]

Edited to add: This thread has altered from my original intent. We are now discussing aspects of responses to a different thread. I apologise for the difference. I am unable to change the thread title, hence this edit.




Some readers will respond to a story by sending feedback to an author making strong suggestions about what he/she'd like to do to the author.

For example:

'Hey! Great story! I'd like to get you and fuck you until you moaned like she did!

Wanna get together?' (though not always with this level of grammar punctuation )





Then there is the other aspect when we are reading work written by other authors.

Do we assume that Stephen King is a thrill seeker just because he writes such stories?

Do we assume that John Barth smoked pot because he wrote about it?

Am I a murderer because I have written about a murder?





What things have you written about that you would hate a reader to accuse you of being or doing?

 

[destinie21]

Some readers will respond to a story by sending feedback to an author making strong suggestions about what he/she'd like to do to the author.

For example:

'Hey! Great story! I'd like to get you and fuck you until you moaned like she did!

Wanna get together?' (though not always with this level of grammar punctuation )

WSO

I'd have to say that the readers that send feedback like that are the ones who don't use logic. I enjoy non consent stories but that doesn't mean that I'd like to be raped or forced to do something that I find questionable or outright painful





Then there is the other aspect when we are reading work written by other authors.

Do we assume that Stephen King is a thrill seeker just because he writes such stories?

Do we assume that John Barth smoked pot because he wrote about it?

Am I a murderer because I have written about a murder?


No
No and
NO

see previous commment



What things have you written about that you would hate a reader to accuse you of being or doing?

murder

Some themes are quetionable though also the manner an attiude with something is written.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Someone once thought that my incest story was true. That's why I've put up a disclaimer in my bio, to tell my readers not to believe ANYTHING I write.

 

[cahab]

What things have you written about that you would hate a reader to accuse you of being or doing?

I actively encouragethis kind of identification I'm afraid. My whole raison d'etre on the site is to turn on my readers, and to that end I have a profile and photo intended to give an impression of a complete slut. I'm afraid i'm not one really. So I'm not offended when the assumption is made, it just means all is going according to plan.

Strangely, though, no-one ever assumes I'm telepathic. Odd, that.

 

[gauchecritic]

I sincerely hope that no one thinks my incest stories are in any way autobiographical. Eeoow.

The mature stories on the other hand, well they were part what has happened (very small part) and filled in with fantasy.

Do I want them to think the mature stories are real? Not arf.

I received a feedback from a woman about my mature series and telling me that she was 49. Unfortunately that's just one year older than me.

Without wanting to derail the thread, I'm still 22 in my head so women of 49 (or 56) are in fact still mature enough in my mind.

Gauche

 

[Guest]

I haven't received any funky feedback; it's all about the writing and I've had some fulfilling corresondence with complete strangers simply about writing. I prefer that, and do not care if anyone gets hot and/or bothered by my work. My stories are utter fiction; my poetry is me.

Hey, Gaucheman, I'll be 57 in three months. Forget the thread, I'm starting to derail.

Purrdita


(Today's AV: Perdita illustrated; second from left.)

 

[Dirty Slut]

There's a little piece of each author...

In every story, poem, book, or what have you there is a piece of the author. For there to be any connection with the reader that has to be taken into account. We write from what we know best. Does that mean that we inject ourselves into every character that we write about? No, but they do take on characteristics of people we have known, and met in our lives I'm sure. If the reader confuses charaters in our story with us, then we should be flattered as what was fiction to us, for a short time became reality in the mind of our readers.

DS

 

[SexySoBeChick]

I've been writing for a while in various genres and have received feedback from a number of sources. But I have to say, the feedback I received from my first posting on Literotica unnerved me a bit.

Although I've written romance and chick-lit that's very sensual, I hadn't explored writing erotica until now. My object was simple—to write a hot story that people liked. I wasn't trying to expression some secret fantasy. I'd even made it a point to write the story in the third person, so there'd be no confusion that the protagonist was me.

Yes, there's always something of myself in the characters I write, but that doesn't mean I want to be my characters or do everything they do. So, I wasn't sure what to do with some of the feedback I received. The good news was that it was overwhelmingly positive—so much so, that some men wanted to get to know me more intimately. One man—who shall remain nameless—even proposed marriage.

Now, I'm all for attracting readers, but I didn't mean to attract them to me—just my writing. Really! I wasn't sure how I should respond, but I ended up being polite, but discouraging. It seems to have worked, because those individuals haven't persisted and I haven't received any "die bitch!" emails. Always a good sign in my opinion.

What have I written about that I wouldn't want readers to accuse me of doing or being? Too many things to list. However, there are also many things I've written I wish I could do. Which is which? I'll never tell.

--SSBC

 

[Why]

Re: There's a little piece of each author...

In every story, poem, book, or what have you there is a piece of the author. For there to be any connection with the reader that has to be taken into account. We write from what we know best. Does that mean that we inject ourselves into every character that we write about? No, but they do take on characteristics of people we have known, and met in our lives I'm sure. If the reader confuses charaters in our story with us, then we should be flattered as what was fiction to us, for a short time became reality in the mind of our readers.

DS

Is it not the aim of all writers to have their reader suspend belief for a small fraction time. It pumps up our ego and has us punching the air. Yes the best work, least for me personally does have elements of me in it. Often my frustration at the world drives my better work. I pour into my characters, the feelings, longings and the life that the real me has only touched on, or does not really wish to live. The writing allows me to explore what I could be, or would have been if the dice had fallen another way.

But now and then people confuse "me" with the characters, this hapened once on another forum, my forum persona/role playing character became to many the "real me" the result has both delighted and frightened me and caused a hell of a lot of thinking and research on the nature of "created charaters/personas vs the real person behind the illusion.

Maybe that is why I am why, and lurk here more than post...

 

[wildsweetone]

Hi all and thanks for responding. There's some interesting thoughts coming up.


How are we to know that a 'controversial literotica persona' is suffering from the problems his/her characters are suffering from?

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

Yes, WSO, you're being wonderfully clever and subversive. I'm sure no one had any idea what you were angling at when you started this thread.

Allow me to be blunt.

Americandemon may or may not be vivesecting coeds in a boiler room somewhere. Americandemon may or may not be raping some woman and leaving bitemarks all over her breasts a la Ted Bundy.

That is a moot point. It's so moot I doubt if even Moots would recognize it.

Bret Easton Ellis wrote (in the first person) about a sociopath hooking up a prostitute's breasts to a car battery, he wrote about psycho-sexual murder in fairly graphic detail- but it was not for psycho-sexual gratification- either for himself or the reader. It was satire. It was an analogy. An ugly analogy, yes, but a valid one, nontheless.

Writing "about" a subject like a horrific, brutal rape for academic, intellectual, fictional, satirical, characterization is not deplorable.

Writing about brutal rape in an deliberately eroticized context IS.

American demon is not writing an expository piece in which he juxtaposes the unspeakable acts of the protagonist with our sensibilities in order to "wake us up" or "make us think".

He is not mentioning it as part of a bigger plot- it IS the plot.

This is not a satire.

Where is my proof of this? Well, aside from the author's clear enjoyment of the material he is describing, and it's absolute lack of merit in any other capacity- there is always the irrefutable proof that it was SUBMITTED TO AN EROTICA SITE.

The issue lies in presentation.

This piece was written as a prurient, blatant wank piece. That isn't acceptable to most people on this site and doesn't fit their definition of "erotic" [I would guess- anyone who disagrees, feel free to interject].

Whether he is committing these kinds of atrocities in the private sector is irrelevant. The story is offensive, because it glorifies, wallows, revels and exploits in the terrorizing, ruin, battery and dehumanization of a proxy victim, a woman- and presents these actions as "literotic".

Do you find it erotic, WSO? It's on an erotica site. And no, before you even say "well, I don't find aardvark tickling erotic either and that's ok by people...blah blah blah..." I ask you again-

Should the rape and brutalization of a woman be considered erotic by anyone?

Should we as a whole be subjected to Americandemon's mental excrement because *he* considers it erotic?

I'll tell you where this piece came from. A.D. was driving along, feeling like the average "angry white male" (oppressed by women, blacks, asians, rich people, aliens, oompa loompas, household appliances) and an attractive woman in an SUV with a cell phone committed the unpardonable offense of cutting him off.

Most of us would have gotten mad, maybe swear, maybe flip her the bird- maybe not, road rage being what it is these days- and then, we would have gotten over it.

Not AD. AD carried the fury of that minute interaction with him, seething, boiling- until he got home, and vomited all his bile and impotent rage into this pathetic excuse for a story- his revenge.

Is that erotic? I don't find mindless hatred erotic. Extreme, yes. How 'bout you?

As for whether this story means he's a sick fuck in real life-

Hell, I shouldn't even get into this, WSO, because you'll make a red herring out of it-

But yes, I do think so. My boyfriend couldn't sit down and write a story like that if he tried; he's more uncomfortable with this topic than I am. He couldn't even finish the story. Why? Because he doesn't hate or fear women.

I think the body of Americandemon's writing suggests he has an abnormal psychology consistent with that of a rage-motivated sexual predator- but that is MY opinion.

Miss Blue Pen's opinion.

And it is irrelevant.

And, gosh, no- I'm not suggesting we ban psycho-sexual sadists from Lit because of their personal lives. As long as they're willing to write about healthy adult fantasies and kitten wiggles, well, the more the merrier.

 

[Dirty Slut]

Because he doesn't hate or fear women.

What's to fear from women? We aren't the one's who make war, or see who can piss farther up hill. In face we are rarely if ever brought to the brink of violence until a man is involved that is. We are the creators of life, the wombs you men lived in for nine months, and quite comfortably I might add. We roar loudest when we say little or nothing. Beware, we don't make war, but we do get even.

DS

 

[Guest]

For the record:

Mlle: I daresay you're one of the two most intelligent and literate persons I've read on Lit., or elsewhere. Your ideas need to be heard and published, so I am grateful to Lit. for allowing you to speak.

I am thirty years your senior but you have raised my consciousness (old 60s term but it fits here) about a few things in the brief time since we've "met' (and wasn't that quite a first date!)

Sincere praise aside, I'm with you here, no hesitation. I see no argument and I am disappointed in WSO.

Perdita

 

[Quint]

Should should should.

I eroticize rape. I eroticize brutality. I eroticize the sadistic and violent treatment of woman, namely, me. I've read it. I've written it. I'm not sharing it because it's mine, so the question is irrelevant if my readers will think I'm a sick fuck. I know me too well for that.

If a fantasy gets you hot, get hot. I'm not bashing the writing of incest or adultery. Lemme alone.

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

Quint-

Honey, it isn't the same thing. Sorry you don't understand the difference between what you do and what American demon does- and what the intent is, but I assure you, there is one. At the risk of pissing off the verbiage gods, I'll refrain from any more commentary.

Blue


By the way, it was kind of ever-so-kind of you to provide Mr. Demon with a direct link to my deprecatory thread. The supreme irony would be if I got raped and tortured because of it!

Of course, if I was, I'm confident that evidence would subsequently be misinterpreted too *laugh*

And, as someone unrelated remarked, the following day there would doubtless be a discussion on Lit as to what kind of irony it was...was it really ironic? Or just unfortunate? lol

 

[wildsweetone]

Be disappointed people. For once in my life I'm speaking out. This thread was not designed especially for Blue Pen's benefit. It was begun because her thread had given me much to think about.

To Blue Pen,

If you are going to take another author's story and bash it to pieces and send out a lynch mob to hang draw and quarter an author who is not even aware of the lynch mob, nor the connotations you have taken from his/her writing, then all I say is you're no better than a person who prefers to say 'guilty until proven innocent.' Did you even bother to give that particular author feedback and telling him/her of your opinion? Did he/she reply?

It matters not what I think of this particular author, nor what I think of his particular style of writing in the excerpt you preferred to show us.

What matters is that your own personal baggage that you've been carrying has blinded you to the possibility that an author simply may be an author, nothing more, nothing less. He or she is a human being, just as you are a human being.

I don't care what you do on your own thread Blue Pen, but get off mine if you're going to bring up something that was not intended to be discussed on here and I say that in the most respectful way.

I do not apologise for whatever tone you may wish to construe from my posting. I know the intent of the tone and anyone who knows me will know it.

Lynch Mobbing is something that sickens me.

 

[Quint]

No, I truly don't want to instigate, but I would like to pinpoint why it's held that he is a sick fuck and I am entitled to my fantasies.

Difference A: I am a female writing about the violent treatment of females, while he is male. Is that it?

Difference B: False modesty cast aside, I write well. I treat my details lovingly and thoroughly, whereas he made a shopping list of actions. I'm pretty sure that the respective quality of our writing does not separate the sane from the sociopathic, but it's a funny thought anyway.

Difference C: I have not posted anything of this nature on a public site. Neither have I posted other works that may or may not "explain" this perversion of mine in origin or intent. Is it the fact that this is accessible to all (over 18, yeah yeah) that bothers you?

Difference D: I have not been the obnoxious bad guy on this forum before, to my recollection. Is it his history here that makes him a sociopath? Or his stories?

Difference E: When I write what is in all other ways a rape story, I don't whimsically throw in an orgasm for whatever purpose, be it peace of mind or placement on Literotica. But that is for my own reasons: I don't find rape nearly as erotic when it's enjoyed.


Similarity: We both have written rape stories. The pleasure of the female was not the focus of the story; her shame, pain and degradation was. At the beginning of this topic, I distinctly read that "the writing reflects the writer," and if this is the case, then I tend to think americandemon and I are in the same boat. I'm genuinely curious why this is suddenly not so. Thank you.

Edited to say: WSO, I'm sorry for carrying on this topic in your thread. Out of it now.

 

[Leslie again]

Don't worry if no one remembers me, I have posted a lot in the past (quite a bit back though), and I have a handful of stories buried somewhere in here at Lit.
Although I have lost access to my original account (not keeping track of passwords n stuff will do that). And it hasn't been vitally important to fret over.

At any rate, to summarise, this all seems to revolve around a person or person's that write material, about actions that in the real world would get you immediately put in jail even potentially sentenced to death (depending on where you live), and likely condemned to solitary if in jail, for the duration. As the inmates would likely remove you from consideration rather rapidly otherwise.

Now writing is just a form of artistic creation. Film is about artistic creation too for instance.
I have not seen any of the films done for Hannibal. But I would not let you expend any of my time on this earth viewing it either. Yet it was very big at the box office. It generated 3 films.

Some material remains what it is, whether it is "well crafted" or gross amatuerish crud.

Now if AD's work is all basically of the same style, same genre, same quality of literature, it is possible I would not want to know him personally as well.
AD though, is not defacto what his literature implies. It would help of course if he quantified his work for all to see publicly.
Until AD does so, this is really largely pointless dialogue.

I have experienced many types of individuals on many forums of all manner of sort. Generally, the majority of people on a forum meet the basic mold.
But there is always a few, that you scratch your head over. And there is too, those that you would find impossible to find in any other way than annoying irritating or down right offensive and repulsive.

But being annoying or even aggravating is not really against the rules of conduct in most cases. And that includes as in the case of here, fictions that do nothing but inspire disgust.

I know I could write the most vile most hideous, most disgusting fiction. I know the words would be just words. And if I submitted them publicly to a site like Lit, they would still be just words.
They would not be indicative of my minds workings, they would illustrate the extent that my mind can articulate though.

I have an imagination that frankly has no boundaries that I can yet discern. Want a vivid nightmare produced for you? Just ask. If you want to be truely and thoroughly unable to sleep for days, I can oblige.
I can see to it that you feel awkward walking alone in the dark as well.

I am not sure I have the skill of a great writer, but this I do know, I have the power to make you scared.

Does it mean deep down I am a monster? Nope.

But I have not yet written anything with express purpose to entertain, that is in fact best left in the darkest portions of my imagination.

Sure we all have imaginations. I would not be surprised if each and every woman has fantasised about a horrible fate at the hands of a monstrous attacker at least once.
I know I have experienced thinking about numerous horrible fates.
I can't imagine anyone considering it desirable literature though, well written or otherwise.

It is possible, that it is fair to say, AD's stories are indeed a smoking gun that could condemn him. But to assume he is guilty of anything more than bad judgment in his choice of literary creation is idiocy. To automatically assume his writings are somehow a sign he needs help is equally bad judgment.

I am a staunch advocate of pavlovian reaction though.
Some would say yeah right, I control my thoughts.
That is foolish arrogance in my opinion.
But I say this, if you had to watch rape upon rape upon rape, your mind WILL become affected. So don't sit there and tell me otherwise. We don't have the term brainwashing for nothing.

People DO get affected by that which they are subjected to continously. Sometimes it is good, and we call it a good habit. Sometimes it is a negative thing, and the influence is a bad habit.
The list could go on ad nauseum.
Always saying thank you is a good habit.
Lying is a bad habit.
You get the idea I am sure.
Do something often enough, and soon you no longer notice it. It recedes from your attention span entirely.

Does anyone remember what it was like to watch a movie, and a woman never appeared naked, there was no outrageous swearing, and the special effects didn't involve lots of idiotic fireballs?
Today, no one even notices when a woman gets undressed in the film and has visible sex. If the film has sufficient swearing that it dominates the dialogue, no one cares.

I can't speak for elsewhere, but here in Canada, you can go to a video rental, and get a tape of some fairly outrageous sexual conduct.
The day I watched a tape that had nothing more than 2 full hours of just men shooting their loads of cum onto and into women, I knew it had gone to far.

I am suuuuuure you won't find much erotica from 50 years ago, that would even be regarded as erotica today.
Well it would seem sooooo tame, as to be indestinguishable as even erotic enough to call it erotica. Certainly not up to present common standards at least.

My idea of non consent basically involves forcing a woman to have sex when she really wasn't interested. That is to say, she was given what she might not normally mind, but was currently not her wish to receive.

I am completely incapable of going past that mark myself though. I think I would need to be "forced against my will" to ever generate anything of a "extreme" nature. I don't even know what extreme looks like. I am not willing to go look either.

Hell part of the reason I have been long absent from Lit and posting, is the Lit experience grew stale as well. The status of my stories is currently unknown to me. I don't regret that, they were written during a different time in my life. I have moved on.

I was compelled to comment here though. I know persons on Lit. and the thread was mentioned (I am sure there are many on Lit that chat with persons off Lit about Lit).
Don't think that my only having 1 post means I am a newbie though. Those that have been here a long time might recognise me (but it's not important).

its Leslie

 

[Dirty Slut]

Should I start to worry now???

Got this feedback today:

[Personal information removed - please see the forum guidelines at the bottom of ever forum page for details]

Never mind, I'll start a new thread on this.

DS

 

[Leslie again]

Hmm I would say yes worry.

Fact one, a clever person can find out who YOU really are. Your identity is NOT secure. Hackers can break into the pentagon, so you ain't safe here.

Fact two stalkers are for real. So don't brush this off as just a jerk wanting to scare you, are you willing to just ignore every threat.

Fact three, that message is I would think a genuine threat that in a court of law would see a severe reaction.
And the powers that be CAN find out who sent that to you if you make it necessary for them to do so.

Scared yet?

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

WSO: I won't post anything more on your thread; frankly I regret letting myself be goaded in the first place.

Apparently strongly articulated opinions are not as acceptable in your view of free speech as depictions of brutal rape.

My apologies for misunderstanding the topic of your thread; I thought it involved American Demon, and that you had deliberately misinterpreted points that I made on a different thread and ran with them, something I am not eager to have done with my words.

I have been told not to disagree with you by others, because you are "such a nice person". I didn't realize that being "nice" was cart-blanche to toss off opinions without having to justify their original thought.

On a personal note, I am dismayed that you would trivialize my intellectual feelings on the subject as so much "baggage". I think that is extremely patronizing, and not at all "nice."

I also do not think I ever came off as inarticulate, reactionary, or underhanded, so I am at a loss to understand your feelings of outrage over my expression. I was merely straight-forward, which is my method.

I take exception to you calling a group of people engaged in a legitimate discourse about a disturbing issue in the public domain "a lynch mob".

The tone of your reply is irrelevant- I don't mind if you hate me. I don't like sly allusory comments. It's like slapping someone when they're looking the other way and then crying "Don't touch me, you brute!" for the benefit of others when they react.

Sorry for my intrusion- enjoy your thread. I understand now that it was created expressly for those who agree with you.

Quint: The difference I was alluding to was that American Demon's writing appears to be motivated by a good deal of underlying rage and non-sexual misogyny, which I had assumed to be different from your garden variety pain/degradation/humiliation fetish.

If I'm wrong, then fine. You're just as horrible as the next guy Ça va?

Tout Finis.

 

[Leslie again]

Hmm Blue Pen I can't help but ask, do you yourself personally know AD?

Further to my inquiry, do you have verifiable credentials to back up your implied psychiatric assessment of his inner demons?

In a public forum, to type the words "appears to be motivated by a good deal of underlying rage and non-sexual misogyny" is basically to accuse AD in the same manner you hate being treated by WSO.

If she can't do it to you, you can't do it to him.

His work might suck, but all you can do is attack his fiction. To attack him personally, only opens yourself up to attack from others.
Might be his friends, might just be people with an opinion.

 

[destinie21]

Be disappointed people. For once in my life I'm speaking out. This thread was not designed especially for Blue Pen's benefit. It was begun because her thread had given me much to think about.

To Blue Pen,

If you are going to take another author's story and bash it to pieces and send out a lynch mob to hang draw and quarter an author who is not even aware of the lynch mob, nor the connotations you have taken from his/her writing, then all I say is you're no better than a person who prefers to say 'guilty until proven innocent.' Did you even bother to give that particular author feedback and telling him/her of your opinion? Did he/she reply?

It matters not what I think of this particular author, nor what I think of his particular style of writing in the excerpt you preferred to show us.



What matters is that your own personal baggage that you've been carrying has blinded you to the possibility that an author simply may be an author, nothing more, nothing less. He or she is a human being, just as you are a human being.

I don't care what you do on your own thread Blue Pen, but get off mine if you're going to bring up something that was not intended to be discussed on here and I say that in the most respectful way.

I do not apologise for whatever tone you may wish to construe from my posting. I know the intent of the tone and anyone who knows me will know it.

Lynch Mobbing is something that sickens me.

WSO I'm going to express my opinion, If you're as open minded as you claim then you should find no offense here. Be mindful that this is not a personal attack though I have chosen to quote you.

I'm going to go to with the logical (logic is of course realative to the thinker) conclusion that Miss Blue Pen was not bashing the entire genre of non consent but this particular author. It was not so much his writing acumen (or lack thereof IMHO) that insighted people to rage. It was the fact that what he is talking about is clearly a brutal form of rape and he has done so strictly for erotic pleasure. The fact that an orgasm is thrown in doesn't mean that it's a simple non consent story. Who among us thinks that having your teeth knocked out or being beaten to the point where you'd be unrecognizable is erotic? It's more like chilling at least to me. You say in the above quote that lynch mobbing is something that sickens you (as it should) So imagine how nauseated you'd feel if you came across a story in the erotic couplings section about someone being graphically lynched and then an orgy thrown in at the end is just supposed to make everything just peachy. I write about rape and murder and pedophilia in essays and stories and yes to me these things are disturbing and controversial but when I write it is not to glorify or erotcize them that's what is most disturbing. In regards to AD stand on the situation he says the same thing in the reply as he said in the thread he dosen't care what I or nay Sayers any feel. Wjich is not surprising because if I felt justified in writing a lesbian story then some sent feed back saying I was sick and twisted I would say the same thing or more likely I'd say what were you doing in the lesbian section.

Anyway my real point is whether I like it or not his story is a form of free speech which I vehemently defend (nausea aside). But it belongs under extreme. I like a good Non- consent story so yes I would be mad if I came across a story like AD's there because it is (IMO) wrongly placed.

 

[Dirty Slut]

Has anyone explained this to Laurel??

That's the real question;.)

DS

 

[wildsweetone]

see my thoughts in bold

WSO: I won't post anything more on your thread; frankly I regret letting myself be goaded in the first place.i didn't 'goad' you, it was your own feelings that made you post

Apparently strongly articulated opinions are not as acceptable in your view of free speech as depictions of brutal rape.they are most definately acceptable to me, however accusations of the nature of saying that americandemon is a rapist or will become one are utterly unfounded except by your own opinion. unless you have some kind of Masters Degree or whatever in psychology i respectfully suggest that your opinions might not be correct in this instance.

My apologies for misunderstanding the topic of your thread; I thought it involved American Demon, and that you had deliberately misinterpreted points that I made on a different thread and ran with them, something I am not eager to have done with my words.apology accepted. in my first post after your first post on this thread i said 'It was begun because her thread had given me much to think about.' Sorry but I thought that was clear enough for anyone to understand.

I have been told not to disagree with you by others, because you are "such a nice person". I didn't realize that being "nice" was cart-blanche to toss off opinions without having to justify their original thought.From the beginning I was not being the person in judgment of another person. I try hard not to do that. I considered that you had, and that you had insited others to do the same without considering that the story excerpt shown was just fiction I am sorry that others felt the need to tell you not to disagree with me. I do try to be a reasonable nice person, I was only doing what I thought was right when I realised people were accusing another author of being a potential rapist because of what he'd written. I'd jump to the defense of anyone if I saw that happening again. If you can't understand the logic behind that, then really it's not my problem but yours. It's a logical enough action when you consider it from this point of view.

On a personal note, I am dismayed that you would trivialize my intellectual feelings on the subject as so much "baggage". I think that is extremely patronizing, and not at all "nice."'Baggage' is a term common in this country for people who have opinions that is solely based on their own bad experience. It's 'baggage' and colours thinking to the extent where sometimes it's not possible to make a non-judgmental comment. It wasn't meant as an insult, it is merely a saying here in NZ. I was going to apologise for using it, however on reflection the term fits aptly enough (and not just to yourself Blue Pen) the way I intended to use it. Just a very personal note to add here... I was raped. I know exactly what it is like to be raped, to be held and raped, to be brutalised. And my rapist never spoke a word out loud, nor did he ever write out his intentions. However, I do not look at another authors writing and believe that that person actually does the things that they've written about.

I also do not think I ever came off as inarticulate, reactionary, or underhanded, so I am at a loss to understand your feelings of outrage over my expression. I was merely straight-forward, which is my method.I was straightforward and respectful back to you. Perhaps we really have a lot in common and our perspectives are similar, at least on rape situations. However the difference between us is that I don't accuse writers of being something they're not unless I have darn good evidential proof that they've done something. Do you know this person personally? Have you watched him/her rape somebody or seen the expression in their eyes when they've been talking about doing it to somebody?

I take exception to you calling a group of people engaged in a legitimate discourse about a disturbing issue in the public domain "a lynch mob".It was not me that quoted the title of the story specifically and provided a link to that specific story. Because you named the person instead of being general with your comments, you accused him/her. It became a lynch mob. And I still stand by that opinion. I do not accuse people of doing such things lightly eh.

The tone of your reply is irrelevant- I don't mind if you hate me. I don't like sly allusory comments. It's like slapping someone when they're looking the other way and then crying "Don't touch me, you brute!" for the benefit of others when they react.I don't hate you. I hate the way you stood the author up in front of everyone to see and accused him of being a potential rapist. That's what it looked like to me and from the replies that were given to you by others in that thread, they also thought the same thing. Those kinds of actions should not be done publically. Sure, be general with your comments of crap writing, but once you get specific you open yourself up to all the other crap. When I came on your thread, I tried to change the direction that I saw the thread was going. I tried to get your viewers to understand that the story was a piece of fiction writing, and that the writer was perhaps not writing his autobiography. If you as an author are closed minded enough to not see what I was trying to do, then that's not my loss. It's yours.

Sorry for my intrusion- enjoy your thread. I understand now that it was created expressly for those who agree with you.crap to that too. I don't create threads for cliques, I create threads that make people think. Check any of the threads I've started, and most of the postings I've posted.

Quint: The difference I was alluding to was that American Demon's writing appears to be motivated by a good deal of underlying rage and non-sexual misogyny, which I had assumed to be different from your garden variety pain/degradation/humiliation fetish.The cue word in this is 'appears'. Pity you didn't say that earlier.

If I'm wrong, then fine. You're just as horrible as the next guy Ça va?

Tout Finis.