Incest, Defined

[CuteSlaveLisa]

That's the bottom line. End of thread.
_____

Oh wait, we must bloviate. Okay, IRL incest sucks, and LIT Incest rocks because LIT fantasyland is not IRL bummersville. IRL incest is usually abuse and, as mentioned, is the same as non-incest power imbalances: kid abused by authority figures.

Don't bring IRL to LIT except as a morality play, with abusers appropriately punished, or not. Forget all the legal and religious and biological stuff except for flavor. In LIT, close relatives fuck consensually. The consequences won't be bad or the story will get lousy reactions.

LIT Incest is positive. Leave the readers masturbating.

I hate to interject reality into Fantasyland. I'm a girl and 100 percent against coercion, overt or implied. I am also an unrepentant brother and sister fucker.

If you have a loving caring parent who teaches their children that there is A way to be a good mate, parent, lover... If you have a like aged sibling that was taught the same... Guess what, mom or dad created Mr. or Ms. Right just for you. (Likely unknowingly.)

We, big bro, adopted sis, have been together 42 years, along with four others. The IRL incest that makes the papers is bad. But choose an pronoun, the Jews, Sikhs, Armenians, Negroes (I'm old), Mexicans, Hindus that make the paper are outliers.

I personally know of a dozen bro-sis unions. None are abusive. The average longevity is thirteen years and in those there are ZERO splits. Compare that to the population at large where everyone has seven exes and their longest relationship was seventeen days.

Power differential, coercion, and sadly rape are real life problems. As are speeding and reckless driving. Raising the driving age to 24 is as productive as outlawing bro-sis sex. If society determines that procreation is the ONLY valid reason to issue a fornication permit (valid for the next three days) we are all fucked. And not in the good way.

Love and Kisses

Lisa Ann

 

[SimonDoom]

I hate to interject reality into Fantasyland. I'm a girl and 100 percent against coercion, overt or implied. I am also an unrepentant brother and sister fucker.

If you have a loving caring parent who teaches their children that there is A way to be a good mate, parent, lover... If you have a like aged sibling that was taught the same... Guess what, mom or dad created Mr. or Ms. Right just for you. (Likely unknowingly.)

We, big bro, adopted sis, have been together 42 years, along with four others. The IRL incest that makes the papers is bad. But choose an pronoun, the Jews, Sikhs, Armenians, Negroes (I'm old), Mexicans, Hindus that make the paper are outliers.

I personally know of a dozen bro-sis unions. None are abusive. The average longevity is thirteen years and in those there are ZERO splits. Compare that to the population at large where everyone has seven exes and their longest relationship was seventeen days.

Power differential, coercion, and sadly rape are real life problems. As are speeding and reckless driving. Raising the driving age to 24 is as productive as outlawing bro-sis sex. If society determines that procreation is the ONLY valid reason to issue a fornication permit (valid for the next three days) we are all fucked. And not in the good way.

Love and Kisses

Lisa Ann

I think all Hypoxia is saying that it usually sucks -- that most cases of incest involve abuse of children, rather than consensual adult activity. I don't think he's denying that it can ever be good. I have no personal experience with good or bad incest, but I find the stories entertaining and don't think of the stories I write as having any relation to the real world. It's not important to me.

 

[KeithD]

The dose of reality for this thread is that Literotica loosely defines incest and has a category for it (combining it with taboo, which makes it even broader in application), a generally trump category, where most any definition of the term determines it's where the story resides in the Literotica collection. Discussions of how it's defined outside of Literotica don't affect what happens on Literotica.

 

[jaF0]

There are a number of films that cross into this area, but let's take Back To The Future for example. Guy goes back in time and runs into his as yet unmarried parents long before he was a twinkle in their eye. If he bangs her in the past, is he committing incest with his future mother?

 

[Hypoxia]

There are a number of films that cross into this area, but let's take Back To The Future for example. Guy goes back in time and runs into his as yet unmarried parents long before he was a twinkle in their eye. If he bangs her in the past, is he committing incest with his future mother?

Write an adaptation of BttF (change names and places), submit it in EC, and guess where Laurel slots it. Meanwhile, see Wikipedia's Incest in film and television. There's quite a bit.

 

[colddiesel]

My God ! What a bunch of heathens.

Surely everyone is aware of "A Table of Kindred and Affinity wherein whofoever are related, are forbidden in Scripture and in our Laws to Marry together."

It's in The Book of Common Prayer, following the Articles of Religion. I refer of course to the 1771 edition as that was the one applicable to the American colonies.

 

[Hypoxia]

It's in The Book of Common Prayer, following the Articles of Religion. I refer of course to the 1771 edition as that was the one applicable to the American colonies.

Anglicans (royalists) lost control soon after. Tsk. Anglican rules didn't mean much anyway to the larger numbers of non-Anglicans: deists, 'non-conformers', natives, Catholics, Jews, et al. BTW America was never a Xian nation despite claims otherwise. Money has always been the main religion. It's a tradition.

 

[RetroFan]

Trouble? Sounds like a great story to me. How is this trouble? Sis is dating Wilt Chamberlain (sorry I'm old) physique of a Greek God, loyalty of an alley cat. Her brother, who loves her, I mean really truly loves her, with the physique and brain of Albert gets 'Scooby Doo Scarry Island' transported into Wilts body. What Trouble?

Perfect for bro and sis, as Meatloaf sang 'Two outa three ain't bad.'

Sounds like the beginning of seventy chapters to me.

Love and Kisses

Lisa Ann

I posted the first chapter of this series this week - Body Swap With Sister's Boyfriend - and the second one went up today on Incest/Taboo.

Boy, do they hate it. They really, really, really hate it. We're talking 'Dirty Grandpa', 'Freddy Got Fingered', 'That's My Boy', 'The Cat in the Hat', 'Garbage Pail Kids', 'Batman & Robin' and 'Movie 43' level hate. The first chapter did get quite a few favorites so obviously some people liked it, but has a low score currently at 3.10 having been below 3 quite a few times. It also got some comments that are negative to say the least. The first comment was 'What a pile of shit' and things only got worse from there.

The second installment hasn't been up long enough to make any assessments yet, but an early score of 2.75 isn't a good sign. I'll keep on writing it because some people obviously like it and I'm actually having fun working on it as it is a comedy, which is the main genre I write in.

 

[CuteSlaveLisa]

I posted the first chapter of this series this week - Body Swap With Sister's Boyfriend - and the second one went up today on Incest/Taboo.

Boy, do they hate it. They really, really, really hate it. We're talking 'Dirty Grandpa', 'Freddy Got Fingered', 'That's My Boy', 'The Cat in the Hat', 'Garbage Pail Kids', 'Batman & Robin' and 'Movie 43' level hate. The first chapter did get quite a few favorites so obviously some people liked it, but has a low score currently at 3.10 having been below 3 quite a few times. It also got some comments that are negative to say the least. The first comment was 'What a pile of shit' and things only got worse from there.

The second installment hasn't been up long enough to make any assessments yet, but an early score of 2.75 isn't a good sign. I'll keep on writing it because some people obviously like it and I'm actually having fun working on it as it is a comedy, which is the main genre I write in.

When I looked at it at 0220 Zulu the numbers were even lower, sorry. You have a lot of well received works in other Genres: EC, Fetish, Humor.

My stuff in humor has 5% to 10% of the looks that my stuff in I/T has. They also have 1.0 to 1.5 more stars. As alluded to by the couple comments that were not nasty there is a segment of the I/T readership receptive to the plot. But...

You just didn't have an orgy on the first page or include Great Aunt Sally. Or fucky, fucky, sucky, sucky all over the place. "Damn it stop alluding to stuff," they would say. Well they would if they knew what the word 'allude' meant.

Looking at your scores in say EC I am guessing that demographic likes a slower build up. For someone my age there are funny bits in your story, it might have done better in Humor with more receptive eyeballs.

Incest and Taboo is a weird category; it's huge because it covers so many different kinks. I get lots of nasty comments on my stories, but I have a really thick skin, IRL I worked 40 years in a workplace dominated by military trained aviators. Many were combat vets, our normal day to day conversations would be considered sexual harrasment in most work places. (I also grew up with three brothers.)

Many of the sub demographics in I/T don't like the other elements, I get lots of "no BDSM in I/T stories" messages, although not as many as the "don't tell me its a true story" hate messages. My favorite messages are along the lines of "I know you say its a true story but we don't know you so why not add uncle Clay and aunt Gertie to the next chapter. Oh, and flying monkeys..."

I write for the reason stated below, not for the scores, I could likely modify what I write to conform to suggestions made on this Forum by more experienced better writers than me. Folks with a dozen red "H"s, I don't (did I mention that I am stubborn too).

OTOH maybe they are all just jealous because you live in Australia, the Kitzbuehl, Kangaroos, yodeling 'Waltzing Matilda' and all that.

Love and Kisses

Lisa Ann

 

[blozo]

I posted the first chapter of this series this week - Body Swap With Sister's Boyfriend - and the second one went up today on Incest/Taboo.

Boy, do they hate it. They really, really, really hate it. We're talking 'Dirty Grandpa', 'Freddy Got Fingered', 'That's My Boy', 'The Cat in the Hat', 'Garbage Pail Kids', 'Batman & Robin' and 'Movie 43' level hate. The first chapter did get quite a few favorites so obviously some people liked it, but has a low score currently at 3.10 having been below 3 quite a few times. It also got some comments that are negative to say the least. The first comment was 'What a pile of shit' and things only got worse from there.

The second installment hasn't been up long enough to make any assessments yet, but an early score of 2.75 isn't a good sign. I'll keep on writing it because some people obviously like it and I'm actually having fun working on it as it is a comedy, which is the main genre I write in.

I use my own method to gauge my success, the ratio of views to favorites.
Greater than 1.5 favs per 1000 views = great story.
1 to 1.49= good
.75 to 1= fair
<.75 = poor.

It's incredibly easy to vote multiple times, an haters will do just that. Look at the ratio of views to votes on your well liked stories and compare them to that 2.75 story you were talking about.
Let me know how that goes, your experience may differ from mine.

 

[SimonDoom]

I use my own method to gauge my success, the ratio of views to favorites.
Greater than 1.5 favs per 1000 views = great story.
1 to 1.49= good
.75 to 1= fair
<.75 = poor.33

.

That's not a bad way to look at things, but there are some wrinkles to consider. I've noticed that the favorite:view ratio goes DOWN for subsequent chapters in a series, even while the score rises. I assume some readers will favorite the first chapter but not bother to favorite subsequent chapters. But that doesn't mean the subsequent chapters are less "successful."

 

[NotWise]

That's not a bad way to look at things, but there are some wrinkles to consider. I've noticed that the favorite:view ratio goes DOWN for subsequent chapters in a series, even while the score rises. I assume some readers will favorite the first chapter but not bother to favorite subsequent chapters. But that doesn't mean the subsequent chapters are less "successful."

I looked at how the ratio ranked my stories. It was interesting, but I didn't entirely agree with it.

The ratio may vary with the category and a number of other factors unrelated to the quality of the story. I've had few problems understanding the reader's rating. There are complications, including the sweeps. While the sweeps usually improve ratings, they can also make it hard to understand the results.

 

[CuteSlaveLisa]

I use my own method to gauge my success, the ratio of views to favorites.
Greater than 1.5 favs per 1000 views = great story.
1 to 1.49= good
.75 to 1= fair
<.75 = poor.

It's incredibly easy to vote multiple times, an haters will do just that. Look at the ratio of views to votes on your well liked stories and compare them to that 2.75 story you were talking about.
Let me know how that goes, your experience may differ from mine.

I LIKE your thought process here, haters can't UNLIKE stories others LIKE. My stuff seems to collect likes, maybe its trolls who don't understand that liking ME gives them an early crack to one bomb (Some of my 3.13s started out at 5 votes 23/24 stars), liking the STORY doesn't. I oddly have two stories with more likes than voters, can't figure that one out.

If I translated your 1.5/1000 to a 5.0
1-1.49/1000 to a 4.0
0.75-0.99/1000 to a 3.0
forget the rest over the last couple days I looked at all of 'em. None would be worse, almost all would be better.

What does it mean, I don't know but, 23/18,500 (1.35/1000) "liked" my lowest rated (3.03) story.

Love and Kisses

Lisa Ann

 

[Tio_Narratore]

Incest is often confounded with inbreeding. Incest is having sex with relatives you're not supposed to have sex with. Inbreeding is reproducing with genetically close partners.

Incest, then, is socio-culturally defined, not biologically defined. In a totally matrilineal society, such as the Trobrianders, a man is not a relative of hos daughter, so se with her, while considered very improper, is not incest. Similarly, for a patrilineal society, like the Kachin, a man is not a relative of his mother, and, in fact, inherits her as a wife upon the death of his father. He is expected, however, to give her to one of his father's brothers, and would suffer a good deal of opprobrium (possibly fatal) if he kept her. In ancient Egypt, among the Inca rulers, and the nobility in Polynesia, all places where the first-born inherits but males own, a first-born girl in a high-status family would be required to marry and reproduce with her younger brother in order to keep wealth and status in the family. It is similar to the still-current Mid-Eastern custom of marrying a daughter to her father's brother's son to keep status within the family. None of these are considered incest, though they may involve close inbreeding.

On the biological level, mating beyond third cousins (people who share great grandparents) is no different genetically than mating with strangers.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

By the way, the movie "Lone Star" features an incestuous/inbreeding relationship between the male and female protagonists. I find it a great film, and if you do watch it, pay attention to the walls: everything is written (or unwritten) there.

 

[CuteSlaveLisa]

Incest is often confounded (confused?) i.v in with inbreeding. Incest is having sex with relatives you're not supposed to have sex with.

Not supposed to? According to whom? Who exactly owns my body? Gee silly me, thought I was an adult. God? Abraham and Sarah were brother and sister, thier son Isaac did alright. Who did Cain "begot" with? How about Noah's kids? Humm there goes religion and morality as opponents to my inviting my big bro inside of me.

The State, ha, on every continent inhabited by humans the ruling classes engaged in incest to concentrate and control wealth. Dispensation schmishprensation, if you make an exception it's not a rule.

Inbreeding is reproducing with genetically close partners... On the biological level, mating beyond third cousins (people who share great grandparents) is no different genetically than mating with strangers.

The problem with this argument is the rules preceded the research by centuries. Rules again' incest were made to prevent common folk from challenging royal authority.

Sure there are biological concerns, I did not carry my brother's seed. The wonderful boy who provided half the genetic material for my child(ren) is not related to me. But as a society we divorced sex and procreation years ago.

Statistically a minute percentage of PiV results in births. The percent for anal and oral is even lower. ;-)

Environmental factors, smoking, heavy metal poisoning, poor nutrition are far more dangerous than genetic concentration which operates in both directions anyway.

Love and Kisses

Lisa Ann

 

[Tio_Narratore]

Not supposed to? According to whom? Who exactly owns my body? Gee silly me, thought I was an adult. God? Abraham and Sarah were brother and sister, thier son Isaac did alright. Who did Cain "begot" with? How about Noah's kids? Humm there goes religion and morality as opponents to my inviting my big bro inside of me.

The State, ha, on every continent inhabited by humans the ruling classes engaged in incest to concentrate and control wealth. Dispensation schmishprensation, if you make an exception it's not a rule.

According to the society in which the people live. To say that society has rules on sex is not to say that they're right. I don't agree with any one having the say over what two consenting adults do.

It is the case that the two (incest and inbreeding) are confounded (not confused one for the other, but incorrectly blended into each other), just as sex and reproduction are not inextricably linked but not one and the same thing.

The problem with this argument is the rules preceded the research by centuries. Rules again' incest were made to prevent common folk from challenging royal authority.

What argument? I haven't proposed that biology has anything to do with incest; it is a socio-cultural phenomenon, and I would argue that incest rules are primarily concerned with inheritance and social position. The folk view of incest "causing" "hereditary" problems is likely based on incidental observations of the effects of homozygosity long before people knew how reproduction took place (something that really wasn't reasonably understood until the 20th century, and is still be studied.

Sure there are biological concerns, I did not carry my brother's seed. The wonderful boy who provided half the genetic material for my child(ren) is not related to me. But as a society we divorced sex and procreation years ago.

Statistically a minute percentage of PiV results in births. The percent for anal and oral is even lower. ;-)

Once again, sex and reproduction are not one and the same. (and you left out axillary, femoral, manual, and a host of other possibilities ).

Environmental factors, smoking, heavy metal poisoning, poor nutrition are far more dangerous than genetic concentration which operates in both directions anyway.

Love and Kisses

Lisa Ann

Radiation (including thermal as well as radioactivity) and catalysts (including ascorbic acid as well as a wide array of chemical agents) are responsible for most genetic mutations. Poor nutrition may have a greater effect on epigenetic inheritance.

The whole set of questions concerning incest and inbreeding have been and are being comprehensively studied; most educational programs at any elementary, high school, and even college level do not adequately address the reality, and "folk" beliefs and views still hold sway.

If you (or any one else) would like to hear more from an anthropologist/human geneticist about this, please feel free to PM me.

 

[jaF0]

The proof is in the Amish.

Not in red fonts.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

The proof is in the Amish.

Not in red fonts.

The proof of what? The effects of homozygosity in a closed breeding population? Most assuredly.

 

[shellyismymom]

more common

I hate to interject reality into Fantasyland. I'm a girl and 100 percent against coercion, overt or implied. I am also an unrepentant brother and sister fucker.

If you have a loving caring parent who teaches their children that there is A way to be a good mate, parent, lover... If you have a like aged sibling that was taught the same... Guess what, mom or dad created Mr. or Ms. Right just for you. (Likely unknowingly.)

We, big bro, adopted sis, have been together 42 years, along with four others. The IRL incest that makes the papers is bad. But choose an pronoun, the Jews, Sikhs, Armenians, Negroes (I'm old), Mexicans, Hindus that make the paper are outliers.

I personally know of a dozen bro-sis unions. None are abusive. The average longevity is thirteen years and in those there are ZERO splits. Compare that to the population at large where everyone has seven exes and their longest relationship was seventeen days.

Power differential, coercion, and sadly rape are real life problems. As are speeding and reckless driving. Raising the driving age to 24 is as productive as outlawing bro-sis sex. If society determines that procreation is the ONLY valid reason to issue a fornication permit (valid for the next three days) we are all fucked. And not in the good way.

Love and Kisses

Lisa Ann

Brother sister in loving sexual relationships is way more common than people suspect. My mother's best friend has been with her brother sexually since well for purposes 18. The brother is now married and they still have that relationship with support from his wife. She , the wife says their own sex life is really good and more so after her husband has been with his sister. Consensual sibling incest is not a bad experience for either, almost never.

 

[Hypoxia]

Pickup line at evening meat market:

He: Do you disapprove of incest?
She: No, nothing wrong with it.
He: Will you be my sister?
She: [insert response here]

And now, a dose of reality. Societies set varied rules on who gets to fuck, and when, and how. Close or distant kin may be on- or off-limits with odd degrees of sanction. I note in What Is Incest? (which you read, hey?) that parent-child, sibling, avuncular (aunt / uncle), and cousin matings range from mandatory to common to harshly prohibited. But sanctions are broken, hopefully without scaring the neighbors.

So, reality. Kin MARRIAGE can be tracked somewhat, sometimes. But for kin FUCKING around the world, I doubt anyone has ANY IDEA where reality lies. Tough sanctions or even mild disapproval promotes laying low and quiet. I'd distrust all statistics by an order of magnitude in any direction.

We're left with anecdotes, our created stories -- and ubiquitous surveillance. Gnat- or dust-size spycams will soon track EVERYTHING and EVERYONE, and of course hackers will flood the world with your words and misdeeds. What happens to taboos then?

Can incest remain taboo when privacy is obsolete?

 

[SimonDoom]

Can incest remain taboo when privacy is obsolete?

This is a big question, a subset of the bigger question whether anything having to do with sex will remain taboo as privacy diminishes.

We're already seeing some changes. In the past it would have been a huge scandal, and possibly the death of an actress's career, for photos of her nude and having sex to be revealed to the public. Now with hacking of cloud photo archives going on constantly, it's a daily occurrence. People don't care as much. The still do care, which is evidenced by the fact that employees in certain kinds of positions, such as teachers, still get fired when caught having sexy photos online or exchanged via phones, but things are relaxing.

I suspect privacy won't become completely obsolete. People will find new technological ways to fight against its erosion. But it will decline as a value, and in the future people won't care as much about seeing it compromised.

 

[dick912]

Father Daughter

Father daughter incest is more common than people realize. My ex wife had sex with her father for a number of years.
== Results from bdsmtest.org ==
100% Exhibitionist
100% Degrader
100% Voyeur
100% Rigger
99% Primal (Hunter)
98% Switch
97% Brat tamer
95% Master/Mistress
93% Experimentalist
93% Non-monogamis