Important: Concerning WOTW stealing stories.

[Sateema Lunasi]

Dillinger's stories were stolen and he made a thread about it. I decided to check for myself. Yep. A bunch of Lit authors are listed there. I matched Author names and story titles through Lit's search engine and found many authors stories listed there. I do not know if these people gave permission for their work to be listed but I will give a list of what names I found:

Dillinger
Jason X
Alex Valentine
Dakota Ryan
Dave Evans
Tawny T
Sparky Kronkite
Dutchboy
Alex Finch
Dangermouse
HotScribe
Stardog Champion
Knight Mooves
Savannah Skye
MiamiCuban
Tristmegistis

There is probably more. And all of these authors have multiple stories on that site.

Here is the link to the site:
http://www.womenontheweb.com/eroticstories/

 

[Sateema Lunasi]

Add Greg Lee Hunt to that name list.

 

[its Leslie]

Read this morning a barrage of threads here on the subject of people outright stealing, or in activity that sure looks like the act of stealing work by us Lit authors.

Alas, be it a story or any of manner of item that is publicly reachable to anyone with a computer and a net connection, theft is always possible.

Copyright means nothing to almost everyone.

Hands up if there is actually someone here that hasn't got a copy of a computer game on their computer that they didn't get from buying it in a store; that actually has bought every version of Windows they ever used; that hasn't downloaded any music of a peer to peer sharing program; that has never watched video obtained the same way music can be; that hasn't employed software that is only trial, but has somehow obtained a cracked copy that de activates that time based limitation.

Remember you can only put up your hand if you qualify for ALL of the above.

I suspect you all get my point.

Now me personally. I would be annoyed if I was attempting to write commercially and my works were being "stolen" defacto in any means at all.

The fact that my stuff is here on Lit is by Literotica's very generous permission always pleases me. But it's also very publicly open to evey person that can get online for that matter too. A simple matter for anyone to copy and paste to their computer and presto my work has been acquired.

I am not sure what I would do if someone attempted to grab my works really. If someone was getting financial worth out of my works I might be annoyed if it wasn't me getting the cash I suppose. I don't think I would be any more successful at objecting though, than anyone from any of the examples I mentioned above.

Sure they closed Napster. But then again. They accomplished nothing. Absolutely nothing.

The music industry is currently pursuing a process of taxing blank cds/cassettes to impose a measure of return on lost revenue.
I dare say we haven't that luxury.

So what do we do about theft?

Hmmmm if I had that answer myself, I would offer it.

Maybe I will get to it shortly after I finish up this Unified Field theory equation.

 

[karmadog]

Somebody is getting financial worth out of your works. Literotica.

Haven't you noticed the ads? The people who steal your work, or that of others, are also trying to use what you wrote without permission to create revenue through ad views. Don't get me wrong, I am more than happy to post here on lit. I think they give more than enough back in return for what little an individual story or poem or writer generates for them. I hope they're getting rich, but I doubt it.

 

[Ray Dario]

Hand Held High

Leslie,

For what it's worth, I can proudly hold my hand up in response to your query. But I know what you're saying. I am in a very tiny minority and some of the worst offenders of stealing music are also the one's that scream the loudest when their work is stolen.

Ray

 

[SexyChele]

Hands up if there is actually someone here that hasn't got a copy of a computer game on their computer that they didn't get from buying it in a store; that actually has bought every version of Windows they ever used; that hasn't downloaded any music of a peer to peer sharing program; that has never watched video obtained the same way music can be; that hasn't employed software that is only trial, but has somehow obtained a cracked copy that de activates that time based limitation.

Remember you can only put up your hand if you qualify for ALL of the above.

*Raises her hand from the back of the room*

Yup, I can say that I qualify for all these. And I irritate those people who I know that engage in such practices by calling them on it.


*sigh*

But, like Ray, I do get your point. And the the fact is, I must simply accept the fact that not everyone has the same standards that I do, and that many would not think twice about stealing some else's work and calling it their own. Just one of those little facts of the technology age.

 

[KillerMuffin]

All I've done is download from Napster. Once the artists did thier suit, I got seriously pissed off at them. Once that was over, I felt guilty. The truth is, I had infringed their copyright and "stole" the music.

I'm too evil to delete my mp3 files, but I no longer share them and for the past year and a half I've been buying, brand new, the CDs that these files come from.

It's kind of bad paying for them after the fact, but I think they'd appreciate that more than just deleting them.


As far as my stories go, if anyone posts them illegally and they are not removed, I will sue them. I have proof that I'm the original writer in a way they simply cannot circumnavigate.

 

[its Leslie]

I chuckle along with Killer Muffin on that one comment, I sure would like to see someone actually try and mimic me.

No I am not unique or special, but it's still hard to fake being me.

 

[Wm_Sexspear]

Also raising his hand...

Larry asks you zillion experienced authors "How about a How To piece on the basics of what to do. A short 101 telling us newbie's what we can do to help prevent theft, then our options if "we" spot a theft. I gather it would be a short short story.

Thanks Salteena for your vigilance.

 

[its Leslie]

All of you are raising your hand eh.......

Hmmmm well I am not going to say it's not true, not my responsibility heheh.

But we all know gals claim to say sperm tastses good and they love to swallow. And of course the average male member is not really 6 but 9 inches long heheh.

But you will forgive me for this raised eyebrow hehehe

 

[Whispersecret]

I can raise my hand to the stuff you listed, Les, but I'm guilty of other areas of copyright infringement. I've made tapes from CD's for friends, not from peer to peer software, but the old-fashioned way. I've shown videos to my class when it clearly says not to show it to large groups. I've Xeroxed stuff out of other people's teacher idea books and vice versa.

Yet I'm not making a profit from violating the copyright. I'd assume the people that take the stories and put them on their own site are covering up the theft by changing author names or titles. Obviously, they know it's wrong if they try to cover their tracks. They make money from the ads or it may even be a pay site. To me, that makes a big difference.

I'm not saying I'm not guilty of anything, but as with much in life, the degree of the act does make a difference. A slap on the cheek is on a different place on the scale than a beating with a lead pipe.

As for preventing the theft, the only way to do that is to not post your stories.

I know zilch about the law, but it seems to me that the attorney fees necessary for suing a person for stealing my stories would far outweigh the amount we'd probably get if we won. Probably the only way to make that worthwhile would be to make it a class action suit type thing.

 

[Wm_Sexspear]

Class Action, hummm!

If a group of people, like from this site, were to pool their efforts it might work. If it ya set up like an assembly line, many watchers, a streamlined. reduced rate for volume, legal process... Who knows. Any lawyers out there writing for this site, any of them writing about screwing people, instead of in court actually shafting them. ;=()

 

[Sateema Lunasi]

I use Morpheus to download music. using Morpheus, I have found dozens of artist that do not get mainstream play on radio stations that I never would have known about without downloading their music at random on Morpheus (kind of like Napster.) Some of those artists are: Suzanne Vega, Little Tin Frog, Iian Vittzberg, Clandestine & Beat Symphony to name a few. I download songs to see if they are shit or not. 90% of the time, what I download is shitty and is promptly erased while I get my dignity back.

If I like an artist's music, I buy the CD. Simple. Just like listening at a headphone station at Virgin Records.

As for reasons why I don't want my work put on a site I do not sanction to do so, it goes beyond simple "they stole my stories" bits. I have found my stories on sites that advertise child pornography and horse fucking. I don't care if a site makes money on my work. i just want them to ask me first. Usually, I will say yes, but I check out the site first.

 

[Axeltheswede]

stealing stories

So it's OK to steal from thieves, Leslie? That must be some interesting legal system you have there in Canada. Try that for a defense here in the states. The judge might even take a month off your sentence, if he enjoyed a good laugh.

 

[its Leslie]

No I never said copyright was ever ok, I was merely pointing out that I highly doubt that many actually have clean hands.

Maybe that's a negative outlook, maybe not.

I know to many people, have seen to much online.

The world doesn't seem in a hurry to care much in practice.

 

[Axeltheswede]

Leslie, I hope that last post made some sense to you.

Your earlier post seemed to be saying people have no right to complain about getting a story ripped off if they ever ripped off anything themselves. I don't mean to sound like Mr. Spock, but that is some weird logic.

By the way - to, in the direction of, too, to a greater extent than desirable.

 

[its Leslie]

Well the main theme of my comment is basically a "kettle calling the coffee pot black" sort of thing really.

We all want a better, nicer, world. Are we all deserving of it.

I don't have a copy of this game or that game. Mainly because 97% of the games out there don't interest me in the slightest. But I know where to get them, because I know so many that can get them for me.

Actually I know where I can get a free copy of virtually anything.

Which is entirely sad I suppose.

It doesn't mean I like it or support it. But I can report on it.

 

[Closet Desire]

Guilty...

...of copying 8-tracks, cassettes, vinyl records, CDs, and lifting from Napster. Yep...copied pages from books and even entire books if they were out of print. Ditto for magazines.

I could rationalise it of course, but the blunt truth is I copied music so I wouldn't have to pay for it--that is assuming it was available.

So I won't be a hypocrite.

A word about protecting what you write or create--as someone who has been a plaintiff in a lawsuit over copyright violation by a large media giant. You're not gonna "win". Here's why.

Copyright violations are a federal case and they are tried in a federal court. You can attempt it as a tort in small claims or your local district court by not raising the issue of copyright and just saying that your work was stolen without compensation. If it's a big case though, the defendant is going to scream and kick. They'll start by demanding right of discovery which bumps you out of small claims and into district court. Then the delays and legal arguments and you will quickly find yourself out of your league no matter how many episodes of Perry Mason you've watched.

Then you'll do what you should have done in the first place and consult a copyright and trademark attorney (at $200-$300 and hour) and answer some pretty difficult questions like: did you do everything you could to protect yourself?

"Well I posted it for free under a phony name on this public forum called Porn R Us."

Have you published a lot of work for which you've been paid?

"Well, no, not really."

Have you registered your work with the Office of Copyright?

"I didn't think I had to."

Well, yes, before you can sue you have to register so send two copies of your manuscript along with a cheque for $30 and in two or three months you'll have a certificate. Now tell me, how much have you lost as a result of this infringement?

"Ummm...well...err..."

Oh, that's right you don't earn your living doing this do you? Well it's hard to establish the damages if you've never determined the cost.

And so forth and so on.

Honest, legitimate people are afraid of being sued--but those who copy your work don't give a shit. Before you can sue them you have to find them. Who is the registered agent? What state are they incorporated in? Are they incorporated? What state has jurisdiction? And...do they even have any money to pay you with? Odds are you'll spend more of your own money trying to write a wrong than you will collect--I did.

Courts aren't stupid either. You put it in the public domain, anonymously, with no genuine effort to establish a value on it and in determining what is equitable the court will decide that you have not been "damaged" and you will be one of those souls who is awarded "one dollar" just to show you won.

If you like writing and sharing your stories with others on Lit or elsewhere then that is the value for you. Don't lose sight of that. If one person has nicked your work and you know about it then imagine how many others have nicked it without your knowledge. Pursuing them is futile. It's like posting a picture of your lover on the web with a kind message asking people not to copy it.

If you want to protect your work then don't publish it where it can be easily copied. If you want to be paid for it then don't post it for free.

Well, that's my early morning ramble for today!

 

[its Leslie]

Closet Desire your remarks were the first I have seen on this thread, that were made by a person standing on firm ground.

My hat is off to ya for being what we all are, and not being afraid that your halo needs a lot of fresh paint.

Hey can you hand me that flashlight, I think my halo has to be around here somewhere. Halos are round ringy looking things right?

Just to point out, I still don't approve. I have not nor will I be holding my hand up though.

Call me a cretin (I suppose I am one in a few ways). I ain't going to try be a saint this late in the game.

 

[Sateema Lunasi]

Just some points...

Closet Desire, you are right, but I am more on the subject of morality, not legality.

Also, I am a writer, a published writer. I make around 30% of my earnings from writing and much of that is in the erotic genre. I only have a few stories on Lit and they are not what I make a living on of course, as well as they are published under a pen name. But the storties I have at lit are ALL registered with US Copyright. The stories posted here are stories I wrote for magazines years ago and now their hold on them is outdated, so I posted them here just to share.

I am not trying to toot a horn but I have been hired by several large magazines and companies to write for them, and sometimes I use the name Sateema, and sometimes I don't. Posting a handful of free stories on the net has gotten me many contracts. But on two occasions it lost me contracts. A site called AOL Women stole a few stories (from Lit and also from my personal site) and posted them on their site. They also had child pornography on their site, an underage girl. My employers said "Holy hell, we can't have you writing for us if your shit is on a kiddie porn site."

That cost me around $2500 just for that contract, not to mention the other that pulled out.

My stories posted here are for fun and for advertisement. I tell possible clients to read a few stories I have posted here, or at my personal site. Although the stories I have here are my weakest ones, the ones I won't pull my hair out if they are stolen.

My writing belongs to me. The same way it would belong to me if it were printed on paper. Or an ebook. Theft is theft, it doesn't matter if it is electronic or not.

While most authors here do not lose funds or reputation when their stories are ripped off, I do, and I know two other authors here who do as well. A site stealing your work may not make you a winner in court but it does make them immoral assholes.


Off my soap box now.

 

[Closet Desire]

Being pragmatic...

I don't think we actually disagree on the morality or legality of "stealing" another's work and it's clear that you already exercise care in the work you choose to post in the public domain. My own philosophy is to not waste my time hand wringing about the lack of conscience by others. It steals time that I could use for other things--like writing or editing books.

The battles over copyright are nothing new and, I'd forward, they were far more ferocious and costly in the 19th century than they are now. Publishers were notorious for snatching up work that had entered the public domain and publishing it. A common scheme then (as now with E.T. and Star Wars) was to substantially edit or add to a work, obtain a new copyright, and publish it as the only "official" work. I have several of these "copyright" editions that I use in research. The public didn't really care and weren't likely to notice so they chose the cheaper, bootleg editions. Even today, most of the so called "classics" that you can pick up in Barnes and Noble at a cheap price (Bronte, Dickens, Scott, et. al.) have been printed from editions that are not true to the original manuscript authorised by the author. Nothing has really changed.

I have registered a few of my books with the US Copyright Office but for the most part I just view it as unecessary expense and delay. With the globalisation of publishing it seemed even less important. For example, a book I am editing now will be published simultaneously in three countries and include the work of authors in four countries. One of my partner's books has been published in a dozen countries in five different languages so there seems little point in chasing all the fine details. Those who want to pilfer wouldn't have bought the books in the first place, but by making it readily available we achieve more sales from those who will. Our decisions not to register was based on the advice of solicitors who felt it was unlikely that somebody would actually "steal" the works in the first place--true of most authors' works--and that the work can be registered at any time should you need to initiate litigation.

I've been publishing work--fiction and non-fiction--since the early eighties and still manage to produce two or three books of fiction and one book of non-fiction a year. In spite of that it is a relatively small fraction of a rather generous income we earn in other ventures. More often than not--when you figure it all in--writing, editing, and publishing is just an expensive hobby for us (figure the time it takes away from more profitable pursuits).

I think any successful author comes to her or his own solution to this problem, but I do notice that the successful ones--like you--guard themselves reasonably and don't lose a lot of sleep over it.

I'm far more pissed off when a scholar uses my critical work in literature without attributing it to me. Of course, that's work for which nobody gets paid, but I will take the time to write to the university or journal responsible and raise it as an issue.

 

[cliper2]

As far as my stories go, if anyone posts them illegally and they are not removed, I will sue them. I have proof that I'm the original writer in a way they simply cannot circumnavigate.

KM,

Unless you've registered the copyright to your story with the Library of Congress, you generally will not be able to sue anyone infringing your work. Registering your copyright makes you eligible for statutory damages and is the only way a lawyer will take your case (copyright is a federal statute so you'd have to sue in federal court and there's no practical way to do that without a lawyer).

You can register all your work for a year at once for $30, though it's best to register within 90 days of publication. That entitles you damges of up to $150,000 per infringement. Just having the registration in hand is often enough to scare people into removing your stories and paying you a fee.

 

[Nudemodel]

Sateema,
I didn't see my name on your list. But WOTW did not steal my stories. Either just before or just after I sent several stories to Literotica, I sent versions of stories to WOTW. It's been a year. But I think that I sent them slightly different (probably poorer) versions: "Bar 69"; "After Bar 69"; "On-Camera After Bar 69." The stories were published almost simultaneously. It seemed okay, and anyway, it would have been difficult to take them back from either net-publisher. So I just let it be. It's been a long time ago, and I haven't checked. But I am not sure that I used my Literotica pen name, Nudemodel. Anyway, that's how that happened. Nice to see that you're looking out for us. Thanks.

 

[Nudemodel]

Closet D,
I generally agree with your long, thoughtful piece. But I usually copyright novels and screenplays, just in case. One never knows. And if a piece of writing suddenly hits the bigger money, it would seem best if a writer is protected. Also, one can leave copyrights to someone in a will. As for the porn stories here, they don't seem worth the effort. Under American copyright law, they're automatically protected. And as far as academics not attributing, my suspicion is that they like to attribute big names in their fields, but forget to put in the little peole with the marvelous ideas. Nudemodel

 

[Sateema Lunasi]

Nudemodel,
I figured that a few of the names I listed probably gave permission, but I listed what names I found, so that the authors could check, just in case. Unfortunately most of the names I listed did not give permission. I have yet to hear from anyone who did give permission from the list.

I like looking out for ya.