I'm mad, too.

[laurel-marie]

A recollection of something i said to my Master in the earliest stages of our relationship, as a brand new & inexperienced submissive ... just recently popped into my head. i didn't realize how inappropriate my words to Him were, at that time.

i don't even recall exactly what it was i had done or said that had started it, but i was being lectured a bit for some OTHER inappropriate behavior that had annoyed Him. When He was finished in making His point and letting me in on the fact that He was very disappointed in my behavior, my reply upon being asked whether or not i had anything to say regarding my poor behavior, or thoughts to add:

"Yeah, well i'm pretty pissed off and annoyed with YOU ... TOO .. right now.".

Realized in that moment, just by the 'look' .... it was not a good choice of words! Best part is, i wasn't even TRYING to be a brat, or disrespectful. It was the very first experience i'd had with Him being displeased with me. i was new .... had no real understanding of how disrespectful and inappropriate the choice of wording would be interpreted as coming from a submissive in conversation with her Dom.

i laugh now, but it wasn't so funny to me at the time.

After reading this post from the Things a sub should NEVER say to her Dom thread, I began wondering....when is it an appropriate time to tell a Dom exactly how you feel about something? Also, what is the best way to do this(face to face, in a journal, etc.)? Or do you just bite your tounge and deal with it?

 

[bisexplicit]

Perhaps you don't want advice from a not really BDSM-er (anything my boyfriend and I do is strictly in bedroom and is only on occasion)...however, I think that there is something wrong with your relationship if you're unable to communicate your feelings. I think its imperative to be able to share how both people are feeling.
I would think, even if you lived your life this way 24/7 that you need to be able to call time outs...*shrugs* But then again, thats just me.

 

[SweetDommes]

In most long term relationships there are ways to do this set up (at least, most that I know about). One way is a journal that both have access to, either online or off. Another is a key phrase that lets the sub call for a "time out" to talk about it - something like "may I speak freely?"

 

[curiousjen]

When I'm upset about something or pissed off or whatever I tend to just tell him. Face to face is always best. Once I wrote him a letter and that totally didn't work, he refused to read it saying if i haven't got enough courage to say it to his face then he doesn't want to know.

However, I am the type of person who processes what I think better by writing it down so sometimes when he has pissed me off I will spend a bit of time on my laptop punching expletives into the keyboard and thinking about my argument before actually confronting him. I know, I'm even a geek when it comes to arguing

He is not, and never has claimed to be an infallible man. And, so he tells me, he has no desire for his wife to have teeth marks in her tongue! It would horrify him more to know that I am doing the woe is me martyr thing and suffering in silence if he genuinely has been an idiot, rather than telling him I am upset. All he asks is that when I confront him I am calm, speak respectfully and try to keep things in perspective. And if he disagrees with me I don't call him a smug controlling bastard Sounds simple, but I often fail at those simple things. I would say the best time is one where he is not too tired (i.e. when he walks in the door from work) and when my initial rage has passed. I don't always succeed at this one, either!

This is rarely an issue, because he so rarely annoys me. And when I have raised a justified complaint in the past, he has always apologized, and tried to rectify his mistake. In the past he has cried when he has apologized for hurting me, and I don't think that makes him any less of a Dom or indeed a man.

 

[s'lara]

Excellent topic.

i think sin's example shows that submissive's don't operate on level that is devoid of emotion. While our submission is expected and required, that doesn't mean we are above harboring feelings of anger, irritation, etc. i think the most difficult predicament to be in is to have to tell a Dominant how you feel when angry or upset. The need to keep a respectful tone gets shredded minute by minute as your anger rises. Some go mute with anger, while others involuntarily explode. What i find dangerous is not allowing an environment for the submissive to vent those feelings and fostering a fear of retribution if the sub does "spill forth the venom."

To answer the question, i think the method of drawing out the anger is going to vary from sub to sub. Some won't feel comfortable under any circumstances verbalizing their anger. That's where the journal or other hand-to-paper expression is key. There are those subs who will need to have that eye to eye contact with their Dominants in order to have immediate reactions to what was said. Sort of a comfort to know that the world isn't going to open up and swallow you whole if you say "i don't like what You said and i'm ticked off at You too." Still another method is the time out practice. It is as simple as requesting withdrawal to a quiet place until the submissive can assess whether his/her anger requires further discussion or can be allowed to dissipate without held resentment.

Whatever the case, the opportunity to express how you (subs) feel should be had by all. While that's an ideal situation, it doesn't necessarily mean that the Dominant will allow it. If He/She doesn't make allowances for such expression, you should reconsider what your needs are in that regard and decide if it suits you or not. As for the Dominant, if the world You construct for your submissive is devoid of an outlet for anger on the part of the sub, You will have to expect some longterm negative effects of living under these conditions. Long held internalizing of anger can lead to having this practice extend to other areas of emotional expression (affection, joy, sadness, etc.). In other words, the toy might turn into a living, breathing, non-reactionary hole ALL the time. Not sure if anyone wants to have property like this on a full time basis.

Pardon my verbosity.

lara

 

[graceanne]

I grew up in a house where I was not allowed to be angry. I developed ulcers and began biting myself to release tension.

K doesn't expect me to keep it inside if I'm ticked. I'll tell him, I'll tell him right now, and I'll make eye contact so he know's I'm serious. What I don't do is yell, call names, or anything else temper-tantrumish. For one thing, the second I do any of those things his brain shuts down and he doesn't hear a darn thing I just said. He instantly gets defensive. This is true whether the person is a dom/me, sub, both, or neither.

 

[His_pita]

In most long term relationships there are ways to do this set up (at least, most that I know about). One way is a journal that both have access to, either online or off. Another is a key phrase that lets the sub call for a "time out" to talk about it - something like "may I speak freely?"

My Dom and I journal and have each other read it. He sends me his and mine is online where he can go to it at anytime. It is very helpful because I am not good with conflict and this way I can write my feelings out and then he understands better so we can communicate.

We also do the "Speak freely" thing. There are many huge complications right now in our new relationship that require direct and honest communications.

I consider myself very fortunate in having such an understanding Dom that wants to know what I am thinking and feeling always. Of course he expects this to be done always with respect for him as Dom and I fully agree with that.

I have yet to have any anger at at my Dom but I know when I do it will be handle appropriately. He has seen me angry about other issues and has the great ability to get me to focus on the issue while validating my need to rant.

 

[kerker_miester]

all good advice

I think all of the above is very good advice. I feel that true free comunication is the heart of every relationship, so for me as a Dom to expect my sub to keep her feelings inside is just plain stupid. Just because a person is submissive does not mean that they do not have feelings of anger, hurt, ect. I want my sub('s) to freely share their feelings of love, caring, desires to please me then why should I not expect her to share the negative things with me as well. It is though a matter of how the sub shares those feelings that makes a difference. I grew up in a household where lashing out verbaly was the norm, it took me a long time after getting married to put that behind me. Now when I get angry I calmly let her know I am upset with her, and if the offence is one which punishment is needed it is always done well past my anger. I never lash out physicaly or verbaly to my sub('s). I feel there for that they should have enough respect for me as the Dom to comunicate their anger in a quiet respectful manner as well, but by all means they must let me know of their feelings.

 

[catalina_francisco]

We both try and keep the lines of communication open, especially where things of significance are involved such as emotions, how the actions or words of one affect the other etc. Both being emotional and passionate beings it is recognised as an area which is not healthy to try and cork and we attempt to discuss the issues with some level of respect and protocol. That usually goes out the door if and when one or the other is trying to suppress something which is very disturbing to our peace in any form. He reminds me if I am getting carried away with it, and I alert him if his approach is causing more problems than solutions for me......it makes sense IMHO. We are not robots, we are not devoid or emotions, we are not perfect.

The communication is always best managed face to face as all other methods have proved to be minefields for us....sort of a lot of crossed wires and misunderstandings of what is being said unless we are speaking to each other face to face. Another plus is we both know when the other is having problems with something before anything is verbalised which makes opening up the conversation much easier.

Catalina

 

[h_i_s]

i have learned a few things, since that little misworded outburst of mine.

If i am requested to do anything that i can not agree with, rather than saying 'no' ... i will say i can't. By can not, i am not meaning something i just don't feel like doing ... i means exactly that 'can not'. This normally serves toward letting Him know that it's not a matter of my lack of willingness in complying with a request .... but more likely my having a need to discuss something before hand, or needing further instruction.

i also learned that it's never appropriate to point out to my Master that He pisses me off or annoys me. Instead, i find it serves Him well to hear, "i have an issue which i would like to discuss, please."

And in the rare instance that i am asked to do something that has not been asked of me before, that i THINK i may NOT wish to do ... i shut my pretty lil' mouth and DO IT. i find that sometimes it is best to ask questions, and voice my opinions ..... AFTER the task has been completed.

It may not work for everyone ... but it works well for us.

NO one is immune to periods of anger, be it pyl or PYL. It's not healthy to swallow, or hold in anger. Communication is key in order to resolve any emotional issues which may develope in ANY relationship. There is nothing wrong with feeling angry ..... it's all about HOW one expresses their feelings of anger. Respect is right up there in importance right next to the importance of good & open forms of communication.

As far as communication face to face vs. journal ... i keep a journal and use it as a way opening myself up further to Him , as a tool of letting Him 'know me' even more ... for the of sharing thoughts, and feelings that He might not be aware of ( tuff to think of stuff to write about though .... He seems to know EVERYTHING ... anyway, MOST of the time). Anything that is of immediate importance is discussed face to face ASAP.

 

[graceanne]

It may not work for everyone ... but it works well for us.

And in the end that's what's important, that it works for you.

 

[h_i_s]

And in the end that's what's important, that it works for you.

It is MORE than just important to us, grace ...... many times it is EVERYTHING.

 

[Neomagalie]

.............

 

[Marquis]

Sinn I enjoy your thoughts on D/s more and more as I read them.


In my case, when I am in lecture mode, what I am looking for is submission. I grant ample time for communication, but I'm not interested in teaching and learning at the same time, and I control when who does what and why.

If I'm dissapointed with my sub and taking the time to correct her, I expect her to match my effort in correcting herself. If I sense rebelliousness, either in her words or in her body language, the belt comes off.

 

[Netzach]

We tend to just let it come naturally.

I find that if I say "hey, that really hurt me" or "excuse me, that was really disrespectful" or "I'm not trying to fight with you" or if he says any of the same things to me, it's not really a breach of respect, just something that needs airing. I don't do the punishment thing anyhow, the corporal in my relationship tends to be a reward and a stress relieving thing.

 

[laurel-marie]

I appreciate all the responses to this question.

This is one of the many areas I struggle with. Feelings of nagging, being petty, or being obstinate tend to keep me from saying anything....causing me to just hold it in. Sometimes, I will write down how I feel, but it is just to get it out of me....and at times it helps, but it is for my eyes only and usually I will delete it. This has to do with day to day living stuff. Don't get me wrong, I do discuss things with him...it just is after I either blow up (I know this is a big no-no) or I come to the conclusion that it IS something that needs to be said, and after fretting over the best way to begin...I will tell him how I feel.
This is another area for me that needs work

 

[graceanne]

Sinn I enjoy your thoughts on D/s more and more as I read them.


In my case, when I am in lecture mode, what I am looking for is submission. I grant ample time for communication, but I'm not interested in teaching and learning at the same time, and I control when who does what and why.

If I'm dissapointed with my sub and taking the time to correct her, I expect her to match my effort in correcting herself. If I sense rebelliousness, either in her words or in her body language, the belt comes off.

I have to admit their are times when I just shut up, and bring it up later. Their are times where arguing is just gonna piss him off, even if I'm respectful. But those times are few and far between.

Part of the reason I bring up a problem immediatly, is that if I have a issue with something I gotta talk about it while it's bothering me, or I'll put it of. If I do this enough times by the time I do talk to him about it I'm royally pissed, and we don't do a lot of communicating. Not to mention I'm sure to say something to get myself in trouble.

 

[graceanne]

I appreciate all the responses to this question.

This is one of the many areas I struggle with. Feelings of nagging, being petty, or being obstinate tend to keep me from saying anything....causing me to just hold it in. Sometimes, I will write down how I feel, but it is just to get it out of me....and at times it helps, but it is for my eyes only and usually I will delete it. This has to do with day to day living stuff. Don't get me wrong, I do discuss things with him...it just is after I either blow up (I know this is a big no-no) or I come to the conclusion that it IS something that needs to be said, and after fretting over the best way to begin...I will tell him how I feel.
This is another area for me that needs work

OH, I know what you mean. As stated, I have to talk to him about things while they're bothering me, or I will put it off. My big thing is nagging. I hate naggers, and I hate being nagged, so I absolutely refuse to nag. So I'll say something once or twice, and then that's it. I won't say it again till I'm so pissed that I get in trouble. We've worked out I guess a system for him to realize when I'm about to loose my patience. I'll tell him, in a calm and reasonable voice that whatever it is that I'm talking about is about to really piss me off, and would he please pay attention. It's worked so far.

For instance, whenever K and his brother have a few beers together, they'd get their beer out of the fridge, walk past the trashcan, walk past another trash can, into the living room where they'd take off the lid and throw it on the floor. I asked him not to do that twice, and then I said that I was about to start yelling about it and would he please pay attention. He hasn't done that since.

 

[h_i_s]

Sinn I enjoy your thoughts on D/s more and more as I read them.

Thank you, Marquis.
In reading your posts, most times i can relate to the dynamics of your style of D/s, just as well as those of Francisco & Catalina. On the rare occasions when my own thoughts may differ some, i do understand your example of D/s. While the basic foundation of my thoughts regarding D/s have remained intact, my mind has been opened in ways i had not conceived at the start of the relationship which my Master and i share. i've done a lot of 'growing' in the past months. Master and i have come a long way in this past year, and while the biggest portion of it all has been wonderful, we have had our share of rough times, with a few difficult milestones achieved along the way. The compliment is very much appreciated ...

In my case, when I am in lecture mode, what I am looking for is submission. I grant ample time for communication, but I'm not interested in teaching and learning at the same time, and I control when who does what and why.

If I'm dissapointed with my sub and taking the time to correct her, I expect her to match my effort in correcting herself. If I sense rebelliousness, either in her words or in her body language, the belt comes off.

my Master operates in pretty much the same way. There is not any mode of disobedience which He will tolerate. i've come a long way with regard to controling my poor choices of words, and AM working on the body language (IE especially the rolling of the eyes thing, that really sets Him off).

He does handle things a bit differently in regard to correcting inappropriate behavior. The work involved in correcting inappropriate behavior does include both, conversation as well as physical punishment (at times, but not always), but He usually discusses first.

Once i understand and accept that i have stepped out of place, and as a result understand exactly what i must do to remedy & avoid repeating the unacceptable behavior in the future, ... then the belt comes out. Most times, i had even thought i was being spared ... and then either later that day, or that night ... or a day or two later, suddenly & unexpected, there He stands with that braided leather belt, asking me, "you know you have earned THIS, right?" ... or "you KNEW you'd get this, right?".

He never uses that belt in anger. It is a teaching tool. By the time He decides to use it, it may be difficult for me to stay put and not move in order to dodge the strikes, and at least by then, i am able to accept, and acknowledge for the both of us, that the punishment was earned and deserved. If not, i don't know that i would learn and gain, much, if anything at all.

 

[Bandit58]

I grew up in a house where I was not allowed to be angry. I developed ulcers and began biting myself to release tension.

K doesn't expect me to keep it inside if I'm ticked. I'll tell him, I'll tell him right now, and I'll make eye contact so he know's I'm serious. What I don't do is yell, call names, or anything else temper-tantrumish. For one thing, the second I do any of those things his brain shuts down and he doesn't hear a darn thing I just said. He instantly gets defensive. This is true whether the person is a dom/me, sub, both, or neither.

When I was married I developed a stress related ulcer, a year before I finally left. My ex has a bad temper and I kept everything bottled up inside so that he didn't turn it on me. Even now after 3 years away from him I get the horrible feeling in my tummy if I ever have to speak to him. I still find myself mutilating my fingers and thumbs by picking and nibbling at the skin - a nervous habit that Master does not like but I am finding extremely difficult to break

Master has said that if I am worried or upset about anything that I should tell him, but often I don't want to worry him so I keep quiet.....He has never done anything to make me upset or fearful yet there is still this barrier to overcome It is easy for me to communicate my love to Him but not my fears..... No doubt this will get easier with time *crosses fingers*

 

[shy slave]

Lots of interesting replies.

Lara I think your right it will vary from sub to sub and relationship to relationship.

I have noticed a difference in how I deal with anger or upset during the past few years.

I used to be very angry and would be quite cutting and pointed about things if I was upset with someone.

That has changed, I now try (it doesn't always work) and take a deep breath and step back from the situation. This works in less emotive situations than those where I feel threatened in some way. By threatened I am refering to emotional or mental threat not physical threat.

We are in the early stages of this relationship and still learning how we both react to upsets etc.

He has been very clear that I am not to hide my views, feelings, thoughts from him.

I have found its more about picking the 'right' moment to discuss issues as oppose to wishing to hide them.

We do not use a journal, I have emailed him if there is something I am finding difficult to put across verbally, although this does not happen often.
I have tried diaries etc in the past but found it difficult to keep them interesting ~ went to work, came home, went on computer, cooked tea ~ is not the most riveting reading but sometimes that is reality.

When there is something that is troubling me or I want his opinion on we speak by IM or the 'phone during those times we are apart. He likes to use the webcam and this helps us both gauge each others mood to what is being said.

Recently he unintentionally upset me during a conversation. He became mad at me when I expressed my displeasure (I don't think I bit his head of but he may have a different view of that). He said he did not want this particular issue to keep coming up, yet at the same time he wants me to share my feelings on things with him.

Yes, I bit my tongue; I was tempted to tell him he could not have it both ways ~ my telling him I am upset/pissed off etc and his having to listen and deal with those feelings.

(If I had this post would be in the Things to Never Say....Thread!)

A few years ago i would have said that and more, luckily I am learning to control my mouth but sometimes it takes a huge effort.
I do regret becoming angry at some issues, usually I go overboard and make a huge issue of very little. Knowing that about myself helps, I can calm down and talk about it later if it still invokes the same feelings.

I did find this particular incident hard to deal with because we were on the webcam, so I just turned away, hoping he would not notice.

Not sure how we will deal with things face to face. I used to shout, yell and occassions throw things now I have a tendancy to want to walk away and/or sulk; not sure he will tolerate that kind of behaviour.

Like Sinn sometimes its not always my talk that causes problems, but my body languauge. If he has asked to do something, even if I don't like/want to, I still perform the task I can get punished for the way I look or act during completing the task.
Marquis said If I sense rebelliousness, either in her words or in her body language, the belt comes off. he is similiar, his resulting actions are swift and precise; more reminder than punishment and I have learnt not to argue with him later, using the argument that I was doing as he said...What more does he want!

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

When I think of how I express anger or frustration or displeasure in my relationship with JM, a couple of things come to mind:

First, anger and its younger cousin displeasure are really just another face of fear. I have to look at what I'm afraid of. There's always some fear behind my anger. Trying to figure that out, and communicating that to him, asking him to help me deal with that--that's alot more productive than going off on him in anger.

Frustration is another issue. That one, for me, is all about ego. When I'm frustrated, its usually about putting myself and my needs first in some way. I'm in a hurry to get somewhere, or I want something to happen faster, or I want to eat somewhere different. "I", "I", "I". This one requires me to mentally slap myself into submission. Its an awareness thing, and an exercise. I've also asked him to help me realize when I'm doing it, and snap me back to reality.

He's not into corporal punishment. He uses ignoring as punishment, very effectively. Corporal punishment doesn't really work very well with me, I'm personally very happy when he takes the belt or the cane to me *grin* Happy masochist! I hate being lectured in the Marine voice, and then ignored for an unknown period of time, though. The disapointment that I've caused just kills me.

~Anelize

 

[shy slave]

When I think of how I express anger or frustration or displeasure in my relationship with JM, a couple of things come to mind:

First, anger and its younger cousin displeasure are really just another face of fear. I have to look at what I'm afraid of. There's always some fear behind my anger. Trying to figure that out, and communicating that to him, asking him to help me deal with that--that's alot more productive than going off on him in anger.

Frustration is another issue. That one, for me, is all about ego. When I'm frustrated, its usually about putting myself and my needs first in some way. I'm in a hurry to get somewhere, or I want something to happen faster, or I want to eat somewhere different. "I", "I", "I". This one requires me to mentally slap myself into submission. Its an awareness thing, and an exercise. I've also asked him to help me realize when I'm doing it, and snap me back to reality.

He's not into corporal punishment. He uses ignoring as punishment, very effectively. Corporal punishment doesn't really work very well with me, I'm personally very happy when he takes the belt or the cane to me *grin* Happy masochist! I hate being lectured in the Marine voice, and then ignored for an unknown period of time, though. The disapointment that I've caused just kills me.

~Anelize

I understand what your saying here Anelize,

I can see that the incident which made me upset with him was because I was afraid of where the situation he was talking about would ultimately lead.
It is a conversation we have had many times and he is aware of how upset I can get, perhaps I need to focus on trying to explain me fears instead of becoming angry and /or upset.

You have helped a great deal. Thank you

 

[serijules]

He's not into corporal punishment. He uses ignoring as punishment, very effectively. Corporal punishment doesn't really work very well with me, I'm personally very happy when he takes the belt or the cane to me *grin* Happy masochist! I hate being lectured in the Marine voice, and then ignored for an unknown period of time, though. The disapointment that I've caused just kills me.

~Anelize

I've always found this view of corporal punishment interesting in a "I can't relate to this but it's still interesting" way.

I'm a masochist for sure. I can't orgasm without pain, and I crave it. When D punishes me, that pain is intolerable. I can barely stand it, and by the end, I'm usually crying or begging. The only difference between these sessions and any other normal session is the presense of her disappointment in me. That's a pretty strong factor, to affect someone that drastically. I need it though, it's a productive way to release the emotions I've pent up that usually leads to me having attitude or disobeying her or withholding myself from her (all of which is punishable).

Ignoring me on the other hand, would completely undermine any trust or faith i had in her. It would be a punishment alright...and the ruin of our relationship.

Interesting how things can affect different people so differently.

 

[serijules]

First, anger and its younger cousin displeasure are really just another face of fear. I have to look at what I'm afraid of. There's always some fear behind my anger. Trying to figure that out, and communicating that to him, asking him to help me deal with that--that's alot more productive than going off on him in anger.

I can relate to this...almost any time I am angry with D or with something D did or didn't do or something, it stems from fear. A fear she is losing interest in me. A fear she will leave me. A fear I am too intense for her, that she will regret collaring me, etc etc etc. That cycles around to me being angry with MYSELF for having those fears in the first place after all she does to show me how much she cares. It's hard to figure out sometimes until it's too late and I've already reacted...fear has this nasty habit of masking itself with illogical reasoning that in the height of emotion, seems perfectly logical.

I've been learning to ask her for help when I get into this rut. It's like a drug for me...some people struggle with alcohol or drugs....my drug is a feeling of self-worthlessness and self-doubt. Learning to communicate these feelings in a productive manner has really been tough as I don't like admitting I have them at all.