"Illegitimate"?

[Recidiva]

Scary, innit?

I learned something.

Told my husband, he learned something too.

Thank you Entitled!

 

[she_is_my_addiction]

My mother needs to see this thread.

She seems to have a problem with people born "out of wedlock"

 

[LadyJeanne]

Ouch, that has to hurt!

Maybe if they labeled unmarried men as "Loser" the spinster designation wouldn't be as irritating.

 

[entitled]

I learned something.

Told my husband, he learned something too.

Thank you Entitled!

But of course! Knowledge is meant to be shared. Sometimes.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Maybe if they labeled unmarried men as "Loser" the spinster designation wouldn't be as irritating.

I would find both bothersome. While I like being engaged, I didn't feel like a loser when I was totally single. It was liberating in a way. Would I go back to it now? Hell, no. I'm even happier. But it was fun at the time.

 

[Guest]

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Sev, you may not care for the word "illegitimate," but it does have a purpose. Children who are either adopted or born in wedlock are the first tier of heirs for an estate. Without the "legitimizing" influence of a marriage or adoption, children born out of wedlock have the burden of proof on their shoulders. We've got a client who nearly lost his house because his parents never married and while you can prove descent via DNA down the maternal line, you can't skip the father when only the paternal grandmother survives. You'd need to revamp our entire society and legal system before the word isn't useful in a legal sense any more. You've got a better shot with the neckties, frankly!

I still regard it as less than valid. To me, it suggests that certain people shouldn't exist. I find that offensive. Others can be coined, I'm sure. Besides, a lot of children from marriages had fathers that weren't who they thought. DNA is a much better solution in terms of accurate proof.

 

[Guest]

 

[3113]

Then again, I am also waiting for neckties to go out of style....

I am so with you on that! Most men really don't look very good in neckties. Cravats, on the other hand, with a nice waistcoat, are quite flattering.

 

[3113]

As for DNA being a better solution, that only works in some cases, as I mentioned in my previous post.

Actually, I'm a little mystified by that. They couldn't find a hair from the guy remaining on any of his old clothing or hairbrush? Maybe I've been watching too much CSI, but it really seems pretty easy to find DNA evidence that ties one person to another.....

Did your client keep his house?

 

[Guest]

 

[amicus]

I'm not sorry. I have a problem with even the idea of applying that word to another human being. We all have a right to be born, whether our parents said, "I do", or not. Marriage neither adds to nor detracts from the value of the child in question. Whatever you think of sexual mores and issues, bear in mind that people are people. Some are not more "legitimate" than others. That's my two cents on the issue.

Historically, there have been many great and influential "bastards". And, personally, my slave, the love of my life, was born "out of wedlock". So it matters to me in particular. I don't regard her as any less legitimate (or more) than myself, who was born in wedlock.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


In a general sense, one can appreciate SeverusMax's contention that every human life is valuable regardless of parentage.

However...we do not exist in a vacuum.

One boy, one girl, one man, one woman, create a child, a new life.

That new life does indeed have a pater and a mater, and in most of the history of mankind, that parentage has been influential on the life of the new offspring.

The impetus, in modern times, is that parentage is of no concern.

I find that extremely shallow thinking.

We may indeed be moving to a future where sperm banks and egg banks may determine progeny; I hope not.

amicus...

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Ahhh. You want a new word. Make it up and start using it, then.

As for DNA being a better solution, that only works in some cases, as I mentioned in my previous post.

It's still A solution. I don't see any point to making inheritance based on a certificate that in no way guarantees that both signers are the parents (there is such a thing as infidelity, after all).

And amicus, really, I didn't say that parentage is of NO concern. Rapists, for instance, I would rather have sterilized or even castrated, to prevent them from reproducing. And I am NOT advocating "test-tube" babies. I just think that it is time to stop this arbitrary and artificial assumption that a marriage license makes procreation better or more desirable. It's a nice bonus, but biologically unnecessary. Like I said, there have been plenty of successful and productive "bastards". (Leonardo da Vinci, for example.) It's a helpful piece of paper, but in the end, it's just a piece of paper- red tape. You don't always need red tape to procreate.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I am so with you on that! Most men really don't look very good in neckties. Cravats, on the other hand, with a nice waistcoat, are quite flattering.

Pardon my ignorance regarding fashion, but what's a cravat? Not meaning to sound stupid. I can cite encyclopedias and history books, but fashion and clothes in general are a murky area for me. I'm primarily a writer, historian, and philosopher-priest, not a designer.

And I just hate how neckties feel. My slave has suggested that I not hold my breath, but ties have already worn out their welcome. I was hoping that Prince Claus of the Netherlands would set a trend, but I guess we have to wait for the Trekkies to be in more responsible positions instead.

 

[Norajane]

Pardon my ignorance regarding fashion, but what's a cravat? Not meaning to sound stupid. I can cite encyclopedias and history books, but fashion and clothes in general are a murky area for me. I'm primarily a writer, historian, and philosopher-priest, not a designer.

And I just hate how neckties feel. My slave has suggested that I not hold my breath, but ties have already worn out their welcome. I was hoping that Prince Claus of the Netherlands would set a trend, but I guess we have to wait for the Trekkies to be in more responsible positions instead.

I doubt you would like cravat's any better than ties - it's just a bigger, floppier version of one:

http://www.thedarkangel.co.uk/img/photos/2005_01/363_500x500.jpg

Modern version:

http://www.nyctuxedos.com/images/item_photo/22_photo.jpg

 

[entitled]

ivote we turn into a matriarchal society, so it won't matter if a child is illegitimate or not. As long as they've been born they'll have some sort of status.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

ivote we turn into a matriarchal society, so it won't matter if a child is illegitimate or not. As long as they've been born they'll have some sort of status.

Not into matriarchy, but I grasp your reasons. I'm too dominant a man to submit to women.

 

[entitled]

Not into matriarchy, but I grasp your reasons. I'm too dominant a man to submit to women.

Doesn't matter. It will happen about the same time as getting rid of neckties.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Doesn't matter. It will happen about the same time as getting rid of neckties.

Yes, the two possiblities are equally inevitable

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Yes, the two possiblities are equally inevitable

I hope not. Although, I have heard that the Y chromosome is declining in numbers....in which case it will be matriarchy by default if we men are extinct. I hope not, but if we become few enough in number, what might emerge is what I have in mind for a story: a society where men and women live separately, meeting each other purely for sex and then returning back to their separate cultures. I portray the men as a kind of "Brahmin" caste, only meddling when certain things seem wrong and spending most of their time with esoteric and philosophical studies and debates. There is an almost monastic feeling to their culture. There is a Patriarch , who functions much like the Pope, and his pronouncements are the law of the land. The reason that I mention this is that in their private, social lives, the women in the story function largely as a collection of matriarchal clans.

I personally prefer the Icelandic system, where the children carry the patronymic (father's name), instead of a family name. Therefore, no one can tell for sure who was born in or out of wedlock. Hence, bastardy carries zero stigma in their society. Apparently, there are no social ills resulting from this, no massive wave of poverty.