If only I could get the Christ out of Christmas.

[Never]

I'm slightly irritated right now, no, I'm more than slightly irritated - I'm very irritated and somewhat mad but I don't feel I should be more than slightly irritated.

Let me explain, a few minutes ago lavender left a message on my cell phone telling to bring my nice clothing when I go to her parents house because we're going to be going to church. Oh, thank you very bloody much for making that decision for me. Let's totally ignore the fact that I'm not Christian, that I haven't been in a church for seven years, that I've never spoken about going to church in anything but derogatory terms and hell, when I did go to church I wasn't even the same denomination as her family is.

It's bad enough that people presume every year that I belong to a religion I don't belong to but lavender should know better. And the thing is, I like Christmas. I think that the season brings out the best in people, the lights are pretty, people try to be nicer, people give to charities, you remind others that they're special to you.

I try my best to celebrate this as a 'season'. The ideas of giving and reflection on the year and caring and togetherness transcend any 'faith' but that's somewhat difficult to do when the religious majority decides it doesn't need to care about any faith not it's own.


Okay, end of rant.

Oh, and by the way, Merry Christmas. Oddly enough, I mean it.

 

[Mischka]

Never, call me. We need to talk.

 

[Cheyenne]

An idea for you Never- take it or leave it.

Go to church for Lavy and her family, not for yourself. Enjoy the lights, the music, the little kids singing cute songs. Consider it a "Christmas season show" if you must, but go. Give it no more meaning than you want to. Endure it if you have to, but go. It will be short, you can do it. Lavy and her family will appreciate it- my guess is they have a family tradition of going to church for the holiday. They are inviting you to be part of their family- please don't turn them down.

As for denominations, I'd go no matter what denomination the church was. All the services are very similar, if it matters any. A Catholic will feel quite comfortable in a Lutheran church, for example. The similarities are much greater than the differences between most churches. And if it is the basic idea of ANY church that bugs you, see paragraph one above. Think "show."

I'll stop short of telling you you owe it to Lavy to go. You don't owe her anything, really. She helps you because she wants to, not because she expects anything in return. And that is the true spirit of the season, isn't it?

 

[lobito]

Even though I don't really care to attend ANY church. I do on occasion go, I'd call myself a wedding/funeral/holiday Catholic.

While my wife and I are both Catholic, I dont' attend Church, and she does. She doesn't think any less of me for not going, it's MY choice. However, I do go with her on holidays, especially Christmas. It's what, an hour or two out of your life?

Of course it's your desicion, but if you like or love Lav, then you have to consider her feelings in this too, and not just yours.

 

[Styphon]

Mr

I'm slightly irritated right now...because we're going to be going to church. Oh, thank you very bloody much for making that decision for me.

I'd be furious! I hope you didn't go, on principle??

I could think of no bigger waste of time than being made to sit though some boring ceremonial devoted to worshipping a big magic guy in the sky who has a talent for getting girls pregnant

Mind you, I like the warm, brotherly feelings at Christmas but I also wish that "religion" wasn't so keen to take the credit.

A festive Yule to one and All!



Styphon

 

[SimplySouthern]

I have to go with the crowd on this one and say "when in Rome".

If you are to be included in a family holiday gathering, sometimes you have to humor them.

The holidays are a time of giving, and this could be your very important gift to them. I think Lavy will appreciate it, and so will her family.

 

[Styphon]

Mr

I have to go with the crowd on this one and say "when in Rome".

If you are to be included in a family holiday gathering, sometimes you have to humor them.

The holidays are a time of giving, and this could be your very important gift to them. I think Lavy will appreciate it, and so will her family.

Just out of idle curiosity, would Lvy have accepted an invitation to a family's pagan celebration of the Winter Solstice? ("When in Rome..." and all that) No axe to grind - I really am just wondering.

Personally, although not a pagan, I'd rather eat, drink and be merry at the thought that the warm weather is supposed to be slowly returning Food, drink, a warm fire and good company to banish the chills


Styphon

 

[SimplySouthern]

Re: Mr

Just out of idle curiosity, would Lvy have accepted an invitation to a family's pagan celebration of the Winter Solstice? ("When in Rome..." and all that) No axe to grind - I really am just wondering.

Personally, although not a pagan, I'd rather eat, drink and be merry at the thought that the warm weather is supposed to be slowly returning Food, drink, a warm fire and good company to banish the chills


Styphon

Perhaps I was misunderstood? My meaning there was when you are with people who have certain traditions, perhaps it is wiser and easier in most cases to go along with their tradition than to attempt to buck the system and put everyone off.

I was raised Southern Baptist, but if someone I was sharing the holidays with was raised, say....Catholic and attending midnight mass was part of a family tradition, I think I could set aside religious differences and attend Mass.

Just MO

 

[Styphon]

Perhaps I was misunderstood? My meaning there was when you are with people who have certain traditions, perhaps it is wiser and easier in most cases to go along with their tradition than to attempt to buck the system and put everyone off.
Well, yes, I understood you perfectly - the cliche "when in Rome..." is hardly rocket science I'm just wondering if Lavy would accept an invite to a pagan ceremony, rather than, as you say "buck the system." There are plenty of pagans out there who might like to invite a friend...

I was raised Southern Baptist, but if someone I was sharing the holidays with was raised, say....Catholic and attending midnight mass was part of a family tradition, I think I could set aside religious differences and attend Mass.
I'm afraid I wouldn't. I would stick to my guns and stay at home with a book and a mug of tea.


Styphon

 

[lobito]

ah the beauty of lit, allowing us all to have differences, no matter how wrong someone may think they are, thay are OUR thoughts. I'm afraid only Lav and never can figure this one out, no matter how much it goes back and forth between the rest of us.

 

[tmuyo]

rant

STOP the world domination of christ and JOIN the ATHEIST ARMY!

we'll train you to do the following:

to convert chrsitians
to bomb churches
to quote bible quotes against them
to generally just sit around saying we'll do stuff and not quite do it.

WHY you ask?

because this is what CHRISTIANS do...


PLEASE DO NOT RIP MY HEAD OFF! THIS HAS BEEN A RANT, no need to go get the christian coallition on my ass, ok?

ok, apologies, 3 people actually followed me to my vcar trying to convert me today and i'm none to happy about it. i try to be nice, but now i'm just a little bit ready to rip their heads off. the whole pacifist thing is ready to snap now. i've been one for almost 2 years (a new years revolution not to kick people's asses actually lasted), and i've done it well. i've avoided beating intelligence into the stupid and faith out of converting bastards, BUT now i'm ready to go find them and beat them halfway stupid and questioning christ.

 

[SINthysist]

Ditto

I want to get the "Les" out of lesbian...

What is the bian's and why does Lester get to speak for them?

 

[Dillinger]

Mellow babe... take a deep breath... and ... be

You know my beliefs... and even so, I find it all good... taken a long time to think that way...

But honor yourself and honor others... I was born Jewish but pagan/zen/zoroastorian/warlock/hail eris/all hail discordia/golden dawn/book of the law by heart/breath/soul... yet we celebrate Christmas (and Hannakah) and I still go out and HOWL at the Moon (Nuit, Star Goddess, bless your child)...

Pagans of old honored the beliefs of others - they were the most open and accomodating religion...

Honor your friends by honoring their beliefs... honor your friends parents by honoring THEIR beliefs... it matters not whether you're in a church or synagogue or dancing under the stars...

Peace, dear one...

 

[Svedish_Chef]

Never, you know why you are going to go too.

Being part of the family means being part of the family.

 

[CeceliaSkye]

My thoughts on this thread... First of all whether you like christianity or not doesn't change the fact that Christmas is a christian holiday, celebrating the birth of Jesus the "Christ".. hence the Christ in Christmas. Secondly I am wondering why you would rant about your friend on a public thread versus letting her know privatley how you feel.. <shrug>

 

[cellis]

I too have a problem with the religious aspects of this holiday... having come from an extremely fundamentalist background... I simply choose not to attend church... However, I understand the need to respect family traditions as well... Never, I hope you are able to resolve this problem...

Holidays should not be the cause of conflicts with our families and loved ones... Personally, I think there is a time to fight ones battles, and a time to go with the flow... sometimes it is hard to know which is which...

 

[Guest]

NEVER DON'T DO IT

THEY HAVE A BRAINWASH MACHINE AT IN THE CHURCH. IF YOU GO IT WILL MAKE YOU BELIEVE IN JESUS. DO NOT SET FOOT IN A CHURCH. IT IS A TRICK! PLEASE THEY HAVE MAGIC TO MAKE YOU ONE OF THEM!

RUN AWAY FAST BEFORE YOU BECOME JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. THE MAGIC IS TOO POWERFUL TO RESIST. PLEASE SAY NO WHILE YOU STILL CAN

 

[Todd]

My thoughts on this thread... First of all whether you like christianity or not doesn't change the fact that Christmas is a christian holiday, celebrating the birth of Jesus the "Christ".. hence the Christ in Christmas. Secondly I am wondering why you would rant about your friend on a public thread versus letting her know privatley how you feel.. <shrug>

Christmas is not a christian holiday

It is a pagan holiday stolen by the catholics

There is nothing christian about it.

Not the star
not the tree
not the lights
nothing, nada, zilch.

 

[Cheyenne]

Tmuyo- you were an asshole the first time you were here and nothing has changed.

Styphon- is there some reason you can't invite a Christian friend to a pagan ceremony? If not, I say go ahead and do it. And, yes, I would go if invited and it was an important holiday to a family I was celebrating with. I might find it interesting and I may even learn something from it.

Todd- your post here is an example of why I tend not to open more than one out of every 100 of your threads anymore.

Dillinger- you are probably the best example there is for Never to follow. It takes an open mind to combine so many different religions/concepts into something that works for you and your family.

I still agree with the majority on this thread, summarized well as "When in Rome..." I hope Never decided to take her good clothes, join Lavy's family, and go to church.

I thought about this thread while I was with my own family today. I wonder how much of Never's objection was actually the going to church part vs. feeling like she was being told what she was going to go without being given a choice? I know if I'm asked to do something, there is a far greater chance that I will do it than if I am told to do something. I don't take orders well. Maybe we all focused on the church part of the post, but the real problem was the feeling of being ordered to do something? That makes it a communication problem, not a religion problem. Of course, I could be all wrong.

 

[Angel]

Originally posted by Cheyenne


Styphon- is there some reason you can't invite a Christian friend to a pagan ceremony? If not, I say go ahead and do it. And, yes, I would go if invited and it was an important holiday to a family I was celebrating with. I might find it interesting and I may even learn something from it.


Yup you can. I've done it plenty of times and they have always welcomed my Christian friends with open arms. Normally they are invited to mingle and observe, and they are given the option to participate if they feel comfortable doing so.





I still agree with the majority on this thread, summarized well as "When in Rome..." I hope Never decided to take her good clothes, join Lavy's family, and go to church.


I agree as well. As I am the only non-Christian in my family, most of them already know that I will not be attending church with them. (Aside from Funerals and Weddings)

My ex's parents are pentacostal. Although the church they attended and the pastor (Or whatever they have) freaked me the hell out, I always went with them for Christmas and Easter. It was what their family did for the holidays. I was a part of the family so I went. He came and did the holiday with my family too, and celebrated with them.
I listened and observed and participated in what I felt comfortable doing. It didn't harm me any, and his parents pretty much kept the Church people from trying to convert me. LOL. It took a few hours of my time twice a year. Nothing more.

Some people don't want to go at all. I don't know how Never feels about being in a Church. I know a few people who are extremely uncomfortable being anywhere near a Church. I think that also should be taken into consideration.

Either way, Never and Lavy'll work it out. Both of them are strong opinionated women - they're not always gonna agree.

 

[perks]

okay,

here's a tasty tidbit about perky......I'm a preacher's kid....
I don't go to church, I think religions are man based not spiritually based,lots of crap rules and regulations.

however,
out of love and the want to share part of my parents life, I attend when I visit them. I don't go for my needs, but for theirs. Attending church isn't always about you...it's about supporting another person's life.

blah blah blah....I'll stop preachin' now

perks

 

[Azwed]

My mom does this ever year. Telling me and my sis we have to go to church. I go even though I don't really want to. It is kind of boring but the songs are nice and so are the candles. We are/were Lutheran so it is very catholic as Chye said. I go cause it makes my mom feel better and that is really the only reason I go. She gets all stressed out this time of year because not matter what she does she does not think the house is christmasy enough. Even when I tell her it does not matter to know she gives herself a gulit trip over it. I am not a wanting person and I don't need all the frills. I don't need big presents and rarely want anything at all for presents. If there is something I really need I will ask for it otherwise I don't ask for anything at all.

 

[modest mouse]

Cheyenne brought up the point that first came to my mind as well, being told to attend...as opposed to being asked if one wanted to join in a family tradition. Personally, if I was told I needed to go, I would onject and decline...whereas if I was asked to participate in an act of family, I might consider it(though in this specific case I would again decline).

I do not believe in any God. I am secure and comfortable with my beliefs and differences with what others feel.

I will not attend a church mass. I find it disrespectful for me to sit through a ceremony, not participate, not sing, begrudginly stand as required...and in the end not care what is being said. It is out of respect that I choose not to attend.

The exceptions to this are weddings and funerals. Most of the marriages in my family have taken place in a Catholic church and I do not enjoy the sometimes agonizingly long sermons and ceremony but I consider myself there to see the vows, with the accompanying formalities to service the newlyweds. Thankfully most of my friends have chosen simple civil ceremonies that I find warmer and more involving.

Funerals function along similar lines in my mind, I attend to remember my freind/family member and view the religious aspects as their request. The way in which they wanted to leave the world, however they felt they were doing so. I sit quietly and reflect on my friend while ignoring the bible quotes, etc.

I lost a very close friend this past summer and it shook me up. I made plans with him to use his cabin the next weekend and 2 hours later he was dead. Suddenly.

I had lunch with David every day and had known him for several years, staying in his house, hanging with his wife and kids at BBQs, etc. We often used each other as an outlet for serious topics, one of them religion. I knew his feelings and he knew mine. He had serious misgivings about Christianity and its trappings, having essentially come to disavow any God.

At his funeral, it ate me up inside to sit through bible readings and several songs when I knew David would have given me hell for letting such a thing occur. He would have told me to get the fuck out of the church and go for a ride. I left with an acrid taste in my mouth that day. I understand funerals are for those remaining but I still felt it was inappropriate.

The point of this long unedited train wreck is that when you impose your religious feelings on someone, no matter how innocent, do not expect their enthusiasm. You may get their time but not their involvement.

 

[Dillinger]

I still hold by what I said earlier in this thread - but I was also thinking of the title you used - "If only I could get the Christ out of Christmas" - I'd actually argue that you have it backwards... I'd more likely say If only I could get the "mas(s)" out of Christ!!!

Meaning - the teachings of the man/myth that we have come to know as Christ are, for the most part - quite deep, desireable, peaceful, insightful and well worth meditating on... its what happened since "he" uttered those words and taught "his" followers... its the big business/political/religious institution that was created around his name that one might have problems with - but, most likely, not the man himself...

 

[lavender]