If BDSM wasn't taboo

[tealsphynx]

Draggie and I were talking the other day about howmuch we hate not being able to be open in public about our D/s relationship. I know some of our limitations are set because of his job, but still, I think it would be nice to not have to worry about marks or what other people see in public, or where we go for public play (currently our local dungeon is off limits as per rules set by the Military). I brought up to him how nice it would be if BDSM were'nt taboo, if it were mainstreem and considered completely normal living. He mentioned that if it were some people would lose interest, that it is the taboo element that keeps them into the lifestyle. Are there really people that think like that? What would you do if BDSM were mainstreem? Rejoice in freedom, or leave because it's no longer closet kink? I think that even if it were mainstreem there would still be vanilla's, some people just arent into kink, and it would still be kinky, just no longer taboo. Any other opinions out there?

 

[graceanne]

If BDSM weren't taboo. . .

And if pigs could fly. I don't see it happening in our lifetime. But if it did, that'd be cool. I wouldn't have to worry about my mom seeing bruises, or about my sister seeing the whip.

As to the dungeon, do they ask your name? I mean could you go and lie about your name or something? Cause as I recall it just says you can't be a member of organizations like that. But how are they gonna know you're there if no one knows your real name?

 

[jasonlf]

If BDSM weren't taboo, it'd own.

It'd also be about the 19th century and earlier, methinks.

 

[tealsphynx]

And if pigs could fly. I don't see it happening in our lifetime. But if it did, that'd be cool. I wouldn't have to worry about my mom seeing bruises, or about my sister seeing the whip.

As to the dungeon, do they ask your name? I mean could you go and lie about your name or something? Cause as I recall it just says you can't be a member of organizations like that. But how are they gonna know you're there if no one knows your real name?

Its not a matter of names. Were someone to see us, mainly Dragon, at the event and word were to get to his superiors he would lose his job, and since the island is such a small place chances of that happening are high. Granted our situation is not as difficult as it would be if I were the military member, or for those who are in a M/f relationship and the male is military, we still have to keep it secret from his workplace. Because BDSM can be veiwed by outsiders as abuse, both physical and mental, and some people (and laws) don't recognize consent were our play to be questioned he would be removed from our homelife since the military would veiw it as a domestic problem. He would be forced to live in the barraks I would be put under surveilance and investgation and our son put into foster care. Granted the NCSF fights this kind of persecution and would stand on our side the military is not the type of organization to give a shit what outside coalitions think. Also many of the military values are based on strict Christian morals so it is very strict about the lifestyles it's members follow. They can't keep us from being part of the local BDSM groups but they can make certain locations off limits because of what happens there (ie physical "abuse" (even if consetual), though the current excuse they give for the dungeon being off limits is the prevalent drug use of many attendees...which I feel is a crock of shit, if drugs were the whole trueth reason for it's banninhg they should make all the local clubs banned because they all have it too)
this wasn't a question of BDSM being mainstreemed today, it was just a thought of how would other people react if it were. Would any body here leave the lifestyle because it would no longer be taboo.

 

[Jay Davis]

No, I certainly wouldn't leave the lifestyle, because D/s is far deeper than just having taboo sex.

I can't speak from the Dominant's perspective, but what real submission is about, for me, giving oneself over completely to something greater than oneself. It's about living a life of service. Every relationship in the world--every friendship, every romance, every professional relationship, every relationship between an individual and an organization--has elements of Dominance and submission underlying it. And the overwhelming majority of these relationships have nothing whatsoever to do with sex, kinky or vanilla.

It's ironic that the military is so closed-minded toward D/s, because submission is absolutely essential to military operation. A soldier must submit to his drill instructors, his commanding officers, the military system, and the nation it protects. He must put the needs of something larger than himself--the military--ahead of his own. He must be willing to follow orders he doesn't agree with, and do things he wouldn't do by his own choice. And he must be willing to lay down his life for the good of the whole. And he's got to believe it's inherently right for him to do all these things, or when it really matters, he won't be able to do them. If that isn't submission, I can't imagine what is.

Frankly, I can't see how a true Dominant could last in the military--the organizational compulsion to submit should ultimately either crush him or force him to rebel. Sure, the military thrives on a vast power structure built of alpha-sub types, but true Dominants shouldn't be able to survive in such an environment, at least theoretically.

My point is, many kinds of Dominance and submission are perfectly acceptable in our world as things are today--so long as we don't label them as such, and we don't wear leather and chains while we do them. The BDSM stuff and all the other kinky games we play are really just packaging, and quite frankly, often obscure what it's really all about. If I found a genuinely Dominant woman who loved me and whom I loved back, and who accepted and valued my submission of my life to hers, I am pretty sure I could get along without the candlewax and ankle cuffs. But as our culture stands today, the candlewax and ankle cuffs actually serve as a means by which true Dominants and submissives can identify one another--after you sift through all the wankers, wannabes, and poseurs.

Somehow, on a second read, I think I talked all around the original question without ever answering it. Whoops, sorry.

 

[tealsphynx]

I know a Dom in the service, I should ask him how he does with it. I do think its funny how bondage and such is OK until it's labeled as such. Still there are many things we can't do outside our home that we'd like to (He's got some fantasies of public humiliation that would be fun)....And it's ok for the military to have a D/s because they're the military and they say so....sorry, I'm a little erked at something right now, so I may be a little pessimistic at the moment.

 

[Tollo]

I really like your question. I am strongly drawn to most things kink. Where does this attraction come from? Is it the idea that it is in some way going against accepted norms? Well I do not think that I have ever consciously thought of it that way, but there is an undeniable element of truth in it, at least for me. I guess I would put it this way, being "naughty", and in particular, my partner being "naughty" is a huge turn on for me. Bad girls are just so damn sexy.

Now D/s is generally considered "bad". So for sure that is part of its attraction for me. If that were its only attraction, then I guess that if it were no longer "bad" then it would no longer hold much fascination for me. Maybe in the very beginning that was the case. At this point however, it has come to mean a lot more to me and I do not think that its becoming (more) mainstreamed would really matter that much to me.

One last thing, Tealsphinx, in your first post you said "I think that even if it were mainstreem there would still be vanilla's..." This has really got me wondering, just what we think about "vanillas", or of the vanilla/kink continuum itself. How do you understand the distinction between kinky and taboo?

For a long time, I think that on a subconscious level I have associated being vanilla with being intolerant and/or sexually inhibited. Just yesterday I was discussing this with my SO and she definitely had a different take on this. I would really love to hear what others have to say about this.

Tollo

 

[Private_Label]

... He mentioned that if it were some people would lose interest, that it is the taboo element that keeps them into the lifestyle. Are there really people that think like that? What would you do if BDSM were mainstreem? Rejoice in freedom, or leave because it's no longer closet kink? I think that even if it were mainstreem there would still be vanilla's, some people just arent into kink, and it would still be kinky, just no longer taboo. Any other opinions out there?

Have bikers stopped being bikers as their group got older, married and had kids? There are whole families that go to the Bike Rally in Sturgis, South Dakota (I remember seeing a lot of cycles of groups and families heading north on I-25 in Colorado). If you are a biker, you are a biker regardless of how you live the rest of your life. Sure there are people who once got into that because it was seen as a "fringe" group, but is that really the case these days?

Another example: Has the Gay & Lesbian groups lost any members now that they can get married/have civil unions in an increasing number of places?

Would BDSM lose the people who are only looking to shock people with their ability to pick something on the edge of acceptable behavior? Sure, but I don't think if would be all that many. Because the posers tend to weed themselves out after a bit, if only because they get older and "more respectable."

Just as I like a little variety in the things I do at work, I like to have a bit of variety in my sex life. I can't see that changing just because the rest of society's attitudes change. (I still play "pen & paper & dice based" Role Playing games 25 years after I started, even though these games have become big business in the small markets).

Just my POV on society in general.

 

[Netzach]

I certainly won't leave, but I didn't get into it for the garden parties and knit alongs. In other words, I'm perfectly happy being less than acceptable and pissing off people who need to be pissed off every once in a while -- it's good for them.

 

[Netzach]

Frankly, I can't see how a true Dominant could last in the military--the organizational compulsion to submit should ultimately either crush him or force him to rebel. Sure, the military thrives on a vast power structure built of alpha-sub types, but true Dominants shouldn't be able to survive in such an environment, at least theoretically.

(

The same way a true submissive can be an attorney or a teacher or a cop -- they don't need their private life to mirror their public life perfectly. Also I don't think that a true Dominant is incapable of submitting to anyone ever under any circumstance. If that's the litmus test there's no such thing. In my mind it's more defined by what makes you happy and grounded, not what you can or can't do.

 

[tealsphynx]

I really like your question. I am strongly drawn to most things kink. Where does this attraction come from? Is it the idea that it is in some way going against accepted norms? Well I do not think that I have ever consciously thought of it that way, but there is an undeniable element of truth in it, at least for me. I guess I would put it this way, being "naughty", and in particular, my partner being "naughty" is a huge turn on for me. Bad girls are just so damn sexy.

Now D/s is generally considered "bad". So for sure that is part of its attraction for me. If that were its only attraction, then I guess that if it were no longer "bad" then it would no longer hold much fascination for me. Maybe in the very beginning that was the case. At this point however, it has come to mean a lot more to me and I do not think that its becoming (more) mainstreamed would really matter that much to me.

One last thing, Tealsphinx, in your first post you said "I think that even if it were mainstreem there would still be vanilla's..." This has really got me wondering, just what we think about "vanillas", or of the vanilla/kink continuum itself. How do you understand the distinction between kinky and taboo?

For a long time, I think that on a subconscious level I have associated being vanilla with being intolerant and/or sexually inhibited. Just yesterday I was discussing this with my SO and she definitely had a different take on this. I would really love to hear what others have to say about this.

Tollo

I agree with your definition of vanilla for the most part. I have a friend who is very closed when it comes to sex. But also recently I have had a conversation (granted while drinking) with a friend of mine. He said our (my and hubby's) alternative lifestyle type relationship fascinates him, but it's not something he's into. BDSM is a fantasy element for him, but when he's tried it IRL it did nothing for him. BDSM and other kinks don't always do something for everybody, just like in our own elements there are different things that different people like/dislike. IE golden showers: for some people it is a key element in their play, whereas for me they do nothing for me. I even find them a turn off and mildly disgusting. Do I hold that kink against people, no, it's just not my kink.

I first reaction when I discovered BDSM was to turn away. Run for the hills and save myself from the sick desires of my SO. I don't understand why it's got to be taboo, so I looked into it and discovered it lets me express various parts of my personality that I have in the past been told to repress. BDSM very much completes me as a person and having to hide it from the rest of the world is difficult for me, it brings back the void the "normal" world leaves me with. Vanilla in my own life leaves me feeling empty. I understand the "naughty" element, but it doesnt do anything for me. I have a hard time being "deviant" I have an anxiety about dissappointing people. This is why I haven't shared being into BDSM with even my family. Funny though I have no issues talking with friends who are open minded but not in the lifestyle about it, I even had on friend ask me to explain things for him...I refered him to lit and some other resource sites because my own knowledge of BDSM is still pretty limited. I never though of the taboo-ness of BDSM being a "naughty" thing that for some may be a kink in itself. That's an interesting POV. Thanks for it Tollo. Though being that kink doesn't do it for everyone it would still, even if more widely accepted(god that sounds like a credit card phrase..) be kinky (I think I'm repeating myself here..sorry) I think I see vanilla/kink alot like the yinyan, I can't remember which is dark and which is light, but I think it's pretty self explanitory.

 

[tealsphynx]

Have bikers stopped being bikers as their group got older, married and had kids? There are whole families that go to the Bike Rally in Sturgis, South Dakota (I remember seeing a lot of cycles of groups and families heading north on I-25 in Colorado). If you are a biker, you are a biker regardless of how you live the rest of your life. Sure there are people who once got into that because it was seen as a "fringe" group, but is that really the case these days?

Another example: Has the Gay & Lesbian groups lost any members now that they can get married/have civil unions in an increasing number of places?

Would BDSM lose the people who are only looking to shock people with their ability to pick something on the edge of acceptable behavior? Sure, but I don't think if would be all that many. Because the posers tend to weed themselves out after a bit, if only because they get older and "more respectable."

Just as I like a little variety in the things I do at work, I like to have a bit of variety in my sex life. I can't see that changing just because the rest of society's attitudes change. (I still play "pen & paper & dice based" Role Playing games 25 years after I started, even though these games have become big business in the small markets).

Just my POV on society in general.

I like your response P_L . SO said something similar, and that alot of the people that would lose interest because all they want is the taboo-ness of it would not really be missed much, and couls possibly even help the BDSM image by not being there to be stupid (I've heard stories of our local dungeon where some people will go (like say men hating women) to beat others senceless and not in the good way....like they use it as an excuse to be abusive...we could do without those kind of people. Though with the exception of the local dungeon I think you're right with fakes leaving on their own. I think there's a point in time after you introduce yourself to the community that it's acceptable to make tons stupid, sloppy, uneducated mistakes, and for the most part IRL (from what I've noticed in our group) the people that have been in it for a while recognize these mistakes and approach you about them and try to help educate you so the mistakes are less frequent. ( I personally love it when the more experienced people offer help/education, alot of times I'm really hesitent to try something until I've talked with others and learned more about it) The fakes aren't interested in educating themselves and normally stop showing up to meetings after being approached. We have some members that aren't into B/D, D/s and/or S/M...we've got one guy that just likes latex and a couple of other pretty non physical kinks. I enjoy the diversity the RL group we're a part of shows.

 

[tealsphynx]

I certainly won't leave, but I didn't get into it for the garden parties and knit alongs. In other words, I'm perfectly happy being less than acceptable and pissing off people who need to be pissed off every once in a while -- it's good for them.

That made me chuckle. I understand what you mean. I like that BDSM lets me express myself completely, I love being a part of our local group but at the same time I have this longing for acceptance....it might go away after a few years when I'm more comfortable with myself, sometimes I have a hard time accepting being a sadist and a Dom, especially since I was raised veiwing relationships as a partnership. Funny though, even though we have an almost 24/7 D/s relatioship we've still got a partnership. I have found the more I "come out" to my friends (and my gay cousin...it was a drunken you confess, I confess kinda thing happening. Though he likes being able to be himself around me now, I enjoy the same) the better I feel. It's like being able to breath again. i don't have to worry about what I say or do around them now (ok so I keep it to a mild tone, I don't tell him to drop his pants so I can spank him in front of them, just because they know doesn't mean I need to abuse they're aceptence) In some ways I'm completely all for not abusing a privelege like being able to be open about it (forcing my/our kinks on other people) but at the same time there are plenty of organizations that force their veiws and choices on us (like really radical Vegans, I've got nothing against that lifestyle choice, but don't be lecturing me when I'm eating meat and drinking milk) (or even more so the radical Christians...I believe in a god type thingy, I call it the creator cause I'm lost when it comes to religion...there were some problems with radical Christians in Lancaster, CA just a couple years ago when the local Wiccan book store was re-opened and blessed by the local Priestess...bible throwing, Gospel music blasting over the chanting, basically everything except witch burning, except, wait, they were burning little witchdolls in effigy) I just get tired of hipocracy....uhm, I've lost my train of thought, sorry.

 

[canadiancutie]

Out here it isn't really taboo, but I guess I don't really hang out with 'mainstream' people, and weirdos are a bit more open with their sex lives haha. A friend of mine actually got me involved in my first bdsm relationship. I forgive her now though.

 

[caela]

BDSM being mainstream wouldn't change anything much in my world. I am very blessed to have open minded parents and friends. All of my friends know, my parents know and one of my cousins knows. At least half of my co-workers have an idea and those that have asked questions know more than they probably expected. Some people continue to ask questions and some people look at me wide eyed like I sprouted a second head and simply make sure the subject of sex is never discussed in my prescence again. The latter though are the ones that are really fun to mess with when we have parties!

 

[Jay Davis]

The same way a true submissive can be an attorney or a teacher or a cop -- they don't need their private life to mirror their public life perfectly. Also I don't think that a true Dominant is incapable of submitting to anyone ever under any circumstance. If that's the litmus test there's no such thing. In my mind it's more defined by what makes you happy and grounded, not what you can or can't do.

Fair enough.

Actually, now that I think about it, if that's the litmus test, there ARE such people. They happen to be sociopaths, though.

 

[Tollo]

No, I certainly wouldn't leave the lifestyle, because D/s is far deeper than just having taboo sex.

The BDSM stuff and all the other kinky games we play are really just packaging, and quite frankly, often obscure what it's really all about. If I found a genuinely Dominant woman who loved me and whom I loved back, and who accepted and valued my submission of my life to hers, I am pretty sure I could get along without the candlewax and ankle cuffs. But as our culture stands today, the candlewax and ankle cuffs actually serve as a means by which true Dominants and submissives can identify one another--after you sift through all the wankers, wannabes, and poseurs.

I agree, it goes much deeper, but I cannot help but notice how prevalent the sexual component is ("kinky" or not.) After all, somehow we have all found our way here, an overtly sexual context, to have these discussions. The type of dominance and submission that we are all interested in, distinguishes itself from other forms of dominance and submission (the military for example) for precisely this reason: it is a sexual thing. Were I to order my sub to peel the potatoes, it would still be, in some way sexual (and I'm not talking veggie fetish here).

Does this ring true for anyone else?

The kinky packaging is important too. I believe it is pointing toward something fundamental. I'm just not sure what that is.

Standing ready to be corrected - but hey, I'm a switch, I can take it...

Tollo

 

[catalina_francisco]

There are some people who are drawn to the taboo element of BDSM more than what it actually is, but I find they lose interest after flirting with it for awhile. For us, if it became mainstream, it would not change who we are or how we live except for making it possible to be more open about some aspects....but then we seem to be sliding in that direction anyway.

Catalina

 

[TaintedB]

I would like it in one sense: it'd mean there would be no more icky, ugly bsdm subculture and I am all for that!

But to me the taboo aspects are part and parcel of what make dominance and submissiveness special and wonderful. I'll provide an example of something similar: I am extremely glad I didn't grow up in one those sane, relaxed, non-uptight European countries like Sweden where nudity is taken for granted, no big deal, even among (or especially among) family members. If I had, all my intense and hot potential to feel deep sexual humilation in nude contexts would never have developed. To never have had the opportunity to experience intensely erotic physical humilation, would have been a horrible shame and waste, I feel. Living in the land of the Puritans has considerable benefits, I think.

 

[m wisdom]

I would like it in one sense: it'd mean there would be no more icky, ugly bsdm subculture and I am all for that!

But to me the taboo aspects are part and parcel of what make dominance and submissiveness special and wonderful. I'll provide an example of something similar: I am extremely glad I didn't grow up in one those sane, relaxed, non-uptight European countries like Sweden where nudity is taken for granted, no big deal, even among (or especially among) family members. If I had, all my intense and hot potential to feel deep sexual humilation in nude contexts would never have developed. To never have had the opportunity to experience intensely erotic physical humilation, would have been a horrible shame and waste, I feel. Living in the land of the Puritans has considerable benefits, I think.

LOL, I wish

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

I was going to post this topic but since one exists I will just bump it.

So what if BDSM wasn't taboo?

What if tomorrow you could go into work and talk about the spanking you received from your Dom last night or even tell your friends and family about the Master you serve or the slave you have without them looking at you with shock and horror?

Would this change anything? Would it make you happier, excited, or anxious? Would you feel less into BDSM because it is no longer taboo?

 

[Netzach]

I was going to post this topic but since one exists I will just bump it.

So what if BDSM wasn't taboo?

What if tomorrow you could go into work and talk about the spanking you received from your Dom last night or even tell your friends and family about the Master you serve or the slave you have without them looking at you with shock and horror?

Would this change anything? Would it make you happier, excited, or anxious? Would you feel less into BDSM because it is no longer taboo?

I can tell my family about that, at least my mother and my aunt. I can't fathom wanting to tell gramma about it even if it were somehow bizzaro world and OK in theory.

I've built my life in such a way that I do work in which it would probably not affect me if my involvement became known. I'd lose some customers, and probably gain others. I like the idea that I would not have to have flickers of concern about my husband's work thinking I'm a freak.

Honestly though, unsolicited conversations in the real world about personal stuff - baby poop, husband penile size, vaginal warts - I prefer those among intimate associates. I don't want to live in a world where it's ALL out there ALL the time. I hop on lit if I want to hear about fisting or intimate details of other people's lives and I can control when and how much and whose. I was a pro - I lived and breathed SM as a totally mundane reality for a while, and I found I actually like a line of delineation around it.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

I can tell my family about that, at least my mother and my aunt. I can't fathom wanting to tell gramma about it even if it were somehow bizzaro world and OK in theory.

I've built my life in such a way that I do work in which it would probably not affect me if my involvement became known. I'd lose some customers, and probably gain others. I like the idea that I would not have to have flickers of concern about my husband's work thinking I'm a freak.

Honestly though, unsolicited conversations in the real world about personal stuff - baby poop, husband penile size, vaginal warts - I prefer those among intimate associates. I don't want to live in a world where it's ALL out there ALL the time. I hop on lit if I want to hear about fisting or intimate details of other people's lives and I can control when and how much and whose. I was a pro - I lived and breathed SM as a totally mundane reality for a while, and I found I actually like a line of delineation around it.

Thank you for your response.

So it would be kind of a burden having to come into work or talking to your family and the first thing they ask is what kinky BDSM thing did you do last night.

 

[graceanne]

I can tell my family about that, at least my mother and my aunt. I can't fathom wanting to tell gramma about it even if it were somehow bizzaro world and OK in theory.

I've built my life in such a way that I do work in which it would probably not affect me if my involvement became known. I'd lose some customers, and probably gain others. I like the idea that I would not have to have flickers of concern about my husband's work thinking I'm a freak.

Honestly though, unsolicited conversations in the real world about personal stuff - baby poop, husband penile size, vaginal warts - I prefer those among intimate associates. I don't want to live in a world where it's ALL out there ALL the time. I hop on lit if I want to hear about fisting or intimate details of other people's lives and I can control when and how much and whose. I was a pro - I lived and breathed SM as a totally mundane reality for a while, and I found I actually like a line of delineation around it.

I agree. I don't go to my kids school and say 'i got laid last night', I wouldn't - even if it wasn't taboo - go and say 'I HIT SUBSPACE LAST NIGHT!' either. Frankly, for me sex is something intimate and special, and talking about the small details to everyone and their dog would make it feel common to me. (This is just how I feel - if you tell everyone and their dog and it doesn't bother YOU *generic you* then that's all that's important.)

Beyond that, I don't want to hear details from strangers about their sex life. It's really a case of TMI. Heck, I dont' want too much detail from my sister and friends. 'I got laid last night' is about as much information as I want. It's very hard to look your brother in law or bestfriends boyfriend in the eye, when you know EXACTLY what they were doing last night.

As for the taboo thing - I think I posted on this. I'd like to think that I'd still do it, even if it wasn't taboo. But, as is common with most hypothetical questions, it's easy to say I'd go one way or the other when in truth I wouldn't know until then. I'd probably still do it, cause I really don't care what other people think about me, and I'm not one of those who does things just to be different. I'm comfortable enough in my own skin to not need to prove myself to other people. Frankly, the only reason I'm 'in the closet' is cause it's easier on me to be 'in the closet'. They aren't going to change my mind, but they will bug the living crap out of me about it. And, as stated, I don't discuss my sex life with other.

Oh, being a conservative Christian takes care of any questions about the day to day D/s. Most of the women in my mom's family (in other words the ones who live near me) have D/s relationships, whether they'd call them that or not. And the one's who DON'T have D/s relationships think they do. And I have no problems telling strangers who're rude enough to ask why I ask permission of my hubby for . . . .well whatever, that the bible says 'wives submit to your husbands'. You'd be amazed at how quickly that shuts them up. They would probably call themselves 'speechless'.

A little post note: Two of my sisters, both of my brothers, and my best friend, know I'm kinky (my other sister is only 13). They don't know HOW kinky I am, but they do know that we have bondage gear and whips and stuff like that. They, like me, don't want to knwo more than that about other people's sex lives.

 

[Netzach]

Thank you for your response.

So it would be kind of a burden having to come into work or talking to your family and the first thing they ask is what kinky BDSM thing did you do last night.

Yeah, that's a good way to describe it. It would be taking what's really awesome and re-enchanted to me as a NON pro and making it an OK shop talk thing again. The magic isn't that it's "naughty" for me, but that it's "other."