If anyone wants to have a serious discussion on the Second amendment

[SadnonMage]

Feel free to add your comments here.

There are very good reasons that our Forefathers made the right to keep and bear arms the second most important thing in the bill of rights.

If you know your history, you would know that the British government prior to the Revolutionary War was disarming the populace of the Colonies. So that those whom they felt were a danger to the peaceful continuation of British rule would not be able to revolt with deadly force.

If accounts are correct, as there should always be a little healthy skepticism, the Colonists stockpiled spare rifles in various locations around the Colonies in the event that the British Colonial Government should resort to military oppression of the citizenry.

The infamous "Shot Heard Round the World" occured near one of these supposed 'stockpiles'.

 

[islandman]

You fail to point out the that colonies did not have a standing army at the time of the amendment. At that time, it was necessary for the populace to bear arms to protect their fragile democracy.

We have a professional army now, to defend us, our homeland and our rights. So why do lay-people need guns? In case the entire US armed services get wiped out and us citizens have to resort to hand-to-hand combat with the enemy on Main Street.

I think not.

 

[sexy-girl]

here is the problem i have if it was included in the bill of rights specifically so that the citizens of america would have the right to stockpile weapons incase they needed to over throw the government then why do people use that argument to say its their right to bear arms to defend their homes against fellow american citizens


plus the fact that the american army now has tanks and fight jets i dont think rifles will overthrow any government


why is it s horrifying to say that it is out of date ?

 

[The Squid King]

All I have to say is...

You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

I'm a card carrying member of the NRA. Do think for one minute that I trust the government?

 

[Weevil]

Feel free to add your comments here.

There are very good reasons that our Forefathers made the right to keep and bear arms the second most important thing in the bill of rights.

Yes, it did indeed make a good deal of sense 200+ years ago.

But so did a lot of stupid things. Leeches in medicine, the oppression of Women, taking as much land as you could from the natives.

And yet, as the mystery of time rolls on, civilized nations realize that things that worked hundreds of years ago don't always work today.

 

[Weevil]

Re: All I have to say is...

You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

I'm a card carrying member of the NRA. Do think for one minute that I trust the government?

You're a card carrying member of the NRA, do you think for one minute that anyone thinks you're discussing this rationally?

 

[lobito]

here is the problem i have if it was included in the bill of rights specifically so that the citizens of america would have the right to stockpile weapons incase they needed to over throw the government then why do people use that argument to say its their right to bear arms to defend their homes against fellow american citizens


plus the fact that the american army now has tanks and fight jets i dont think rifles will overthrow any government


why is it s horrifying to say that it is out of date ?

Again I say you're pretty smart for a girl, and a Brit.

Very good points against the right to bear arms. Guns are meant to harm, and no one can disagree with that.

The ONLY guns I advocate having are for actual hunting of animals, not the human kind. And even then, some people do it just to kill, not to live off of what they've hunted.

 

[SadnonMage]

Hmmm, but you fail to see all of History.

You fail to point out the that colonies did not have a standing army at the time of the amendment. At that time, it was necessary for the populace to bear arms to protect their fragile democracy.

We have a professional army now, to defend us, our homeland and our rights. So why do lay-people need guns? In case the entire US armed services get wiped out and us citizens have to resort to hand-to-hand combat with the enemy on Main Street.

I think not.

The Third Reich before it started it's long journey to encompass most of Europe, disarmed it's own public as well.

Be afraid if they start taking away the guns of the "common" man.
soon oppression follows.
The right to keep and bear arms is as important as the right to free speech.

As far as the National Rifle Association is concerned, because we all know that is the real point we all want to discuss.
No organization in this country is more dedicated to gun safety and education, and the responsible use of firearms.

And taking pot-shots at Mr. Charleton Heston is not going to do anything for your credibility.

 

[sexy-girl]

Re: All I have to say is...

You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

I'm a card carrying member of the NRA. Do think for one minute that I trust the government?

what difference will you having a gun make if the american government proved untrustworthy enough to need to be overthrown ?

do you really think there is much chance of that happening in the current age of american democracy anyway


isn't the real reason why people want to carry guns because they want to protect their homes and selves against other human beings with weapons that are solely designed to kill ... its not some just cause to defend america's holy values like the NRA would have people believe in my opinion



edited to say thank you lobito ... im really am quite anti gun

 

[SadnonMage]

UK, also stands for unarmed Kingdom

here is the problem i have if it was included in the bill of rights specifically so that the citizens of america would have the right to stockpile weapons incase they needed to over throw the government then why do people use that argument to say its their right to bear arms to defend their homes against fellow american citizens


plus the fact that the american army now has tanks and fight jets i dont think rifles will overthrow any government


why is it s horrifying to say that it is out of date ?

The British Government is still so afraid of being overthrown that anyone who owns any gun in the "Empire" has to be registered, and as I recall you can't even own a shotgun for hunting fowl.

Your argument doesn't even register here in my mind, because you live in one of the most socialist oppresive "Free" countries in the world.

 

[SadnonMage]

Re: Re: All I have to say is...

You're a card carrying member of the NRA, do you think for one minute that anyone thinks you're discussing this rationally?

So what's your excuse?

 

[lobito]

No one who isn't part of the NRA will ever fully understand what they are really about. People who are part of the NRA will say what they want people to believe, and people who aren't will say what they believe the NRA is really about. It's a no win situation here folks.

 

[islandman]

Re: All I have to say is...

You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

I'm a card carrying member of the NRA. Do think for one minute that I trust the government?

I doubt you'll find many people who trust the goverment implicitly. Some of us attempt change by voting, others hold on to their guns until they shoot their privates off by accident, or one of their kids comes across it and offs themselves or others.

That's the real shame.

 

[islandman]

Re: Hmmm, but you fail to see all of History.

And taking pot-shots at Mr. Charleton Heston is not going to do anything for your credibility.

He did a better job of discrediting himself than i ever could. But you're right. This extends beyond him and to the entire NRA.

 

[Problem Child]

Re: Re: All I have to say is...

I doubt you'll find many people who trust the goverment implicitly. Some of us attempt change by voting, others hold on to their guns until they shoot their privates off by accident, or one of their kids comes across it and offs themselves or others.

That's the real shame.

Implying that gun owners:

a) do not vote

b) are accident-prone morons, and

c) are irresponsible and don't have any regard for the safety of their children.


I knew there was a reason I didn't want to get seriously involved in this particular gun control thread.

 

[SadnonMage]

Re: Re: Hmmm, but you fail to see all of History.

He did a better job of discrediting himself than i ever could. But you're right. This extends beyond him and to the entire NRA.

Funny thing is if it weren't for the NRA, sportsmen, and people who love to hunt and donate everything they don't keep for themselves to food pantries, would be using slings and stones.

 

[islandman]

Re: Re: Re: All I have to say is...

Implying that gun owners:

a) do not vote

b) are accident-prone morons, and

c) are irresponsible and don't have any regard for the safety of their children.


I knew there was a reason I didn't want to get seriously involved in this particular gun control thread.

Someone find this person the link to the CDC which states that accidents in the home increase exponentially with a gun in the house.


And yes, I do think its irresponsible to have a gun around children. No good comes of it.

 

[SadnonMage]

Re: Re: Re: All I have to say is...

Implying that gun owners:

a) do not vote

b) are accident-prone morons, and

c) are irresponsible and don't have any regard for the safety of their children.


I knew there was a reason I didn't want to get seriously involved in this particular gun control thread.

PC, not a gun control thread when started, I was hoping for some serious discussion on the facts of History.
Guess I drew out the lefties a little early, sorry.

 

[sexy-girl]

Re: UK, also stands for unarmed Kingdom

The British Government is still so afraid of being overthrown that anyone who owns any gun in the "Empire" has to be registered, and as I recall you can't even own a shotgun for hunting fowl.

Your argument doesn't even register here in my mind, because you live in one of the most socialist oppresive "Free" countries in the world.

so you're unwilling to listen to my arguments and the only way you can refute them is to say because of my nationality i dont know what im talking about ?

thats nice of you

i dont think this thread was about a serious discussion ... its you telling people what you think without listening to others or having any discussion

 

[lobito]

Re: Re: Re: All I have to say is...

...
I knew there was a reason I didn't want to get seriously involved in this particular gun control thread.

Gun control threads, much like abortion/pro-choice or pro-life threads are just going to continue to go round and round, with no good results, and a lot of mudslinging to each side. It's all about the controversy/attention anymore.

 

[Ishmael]

Multiple reasons for the 2nd amendment.

The first and foremost was/is the belief that all free persons have the right to defend themselves and their property. (You will find this argument among the writings of Jefferson.)

The next was the concept that all free men between certain ages (I think it was 16 - 56 but don't quote that.) are a part of the countries militia. By constitutional amendments this now includes women. (Jay and Hamilton in the "Federalist Papers".)

The last was the thought that an armed populace was the final check against unbridled government abuse. The amendment that secured the first amendment. (Writings of Jay, Hamilton, Adams, Jefferson, et al.)

The "militia" clause in the amendment is an exemplory clause, not a restrictive clause. Diagram the sentence. That makes the 'right to bear arms' a personal right, not a communal right.

Last, the "Bill of Rights" is an enumeration of those rights that all free people are entitled to. The existance, or non-existance, of the second amendment wouldn't cahnge anything. We would still have that right.

The murderous act of one does not give rise for an excuse to abridge the rights of all. This is narrow and short sighted. The fact that more crimes are stopped with firearms each year seems to be lost on those that concentrate on the crimes that are commited.

For more reading:

http://www.rkba.org/comment/cowards.html

Ishmael

 

[Bob_Bytchin]

I have some bear arms....they scare the crap out of kids on Halloween.

 

[Hamletmaschine]

No one who isn't part of the NRA will ever fully understand what they are really about. People who are part of the NRA will say what they want people to believe, and people who aren't will say what they believe the NRA is really about. It's a no win situation here folks.

True enough ... except those NRA people are locked and loaded so when "serious discussion" breaks down, or else when they feel like exercising their fucking "rights," they can just start shooting.

I trust the government a helluva lot more than a pickup truck full of hunters carrying shotguns. The government's never shot at me before.

 

[Lost Cause]

If you don't have a firearm, you don't understand...

Or you're in a repressive country that has convinced you that it's for your own good, you can't be trusted with defending yourself! When the threat of invasion from Germany settled into England, they screamed for firearms for the civilian defense forces, and who'd they come to for weapons? USA! Same old bullshit, different era! You're in good company though with your stance...Hitler/Stalin/Mao/Polpot/Mugabe/Mussolini..

*What is the home invasion, armed robbery, and murder rates in the "domesticated" societies with state weapon restrictions? (Use proper population perspectives, we are 280 million to your ?)

 

[lobito]

Re: Re: UK, also stands for unarmed Kingdom

so you're unwilling to listen to my arguments and the only way you can refute them is to say because of my nationality i dont know what im talking about ?

thats nice of you

i dont think this thread was about a serious discussion ... its you telling people what you think without listening to others or having any discussion

hides behind s-g, while she opens her biggest can a whup-ass on ya kid.