I write for me

[daughter]

We hear this argument a lot. Donald Hall said this is common among the young poet. He argues that poetry isn't for the poet only. Poetry is a bridge. The goal is to convey an idea in such a way that another may appreciate it. In that sense, then you are not simply writing for yourself. If your audience is limited to yourself or your lover, then don't share it publicly.

I sent this remark to a poet recently. I'm not looking for your agreement or disagreement. Afterall, I'm just writing for myself:

I have nothing against crafting lines for my lover's eyes, but to expect others who are not apart of the relationship to have the same identification requires the poet to draw them in on a level that is clearly an invitation to be apart of the experience.

Here, you are writing your lover, and as an afterthought sharing it with a reader. How would you feel if you went to a friend's house and she was having a party. You hadn't been invited, but simply decided to drop by. She opens the door and says,"Oh, I was having some friends over for a party. Would you like to join us"?

How much fun would that be for you?

Peace,

daughter

 

[alltherage]

I am not certain who I write for. Certainly the process of writing does something for me and as I am writing I am not so very concerned who might or might not like it. I have written poems to lovers and they are for them. I am working a a short story now about a former lover and I am not certain what I will do with it. I may post it or I may not. It ultimately depends on whether I believe it has a life beyond my need to record it. I have never written for a specific audiance unless it was for a lover. If people like what I write I am pleased and often surprised.

 

[daughter]

alltherage

I think we blur the intended audience and their reaction. Being receptive or interested in a read doesn't mean I'm automatically going to like it.

I'm not arguing that we write to gain approval. My point is to write to an audience that can comprehend and appreciate your writing. If you post a story here, the intended audience are those who enjoy erotica.

Would you share your erotic stories with your children? Do we alter our vocabulary and explanations given the intended audience? Of course, we do.

One of the things we're taught in school is to ask ourselves who's the intended audience is. On some level, you have a reader in mind. You said you've written for lovers. Then you have identified your reader. If an exercise is cathartic, the audience is self.

I wish we could get passed, "I don't care if you like it." Furthermore, I can appreciate how a story is written even if I don't personally like it. I don't like incest stories. That does not stop me from recognizing a writer's deft ability. I don't like Stephen King's work. I won't be foolish and argue the man can't write.

Personal preference influences what we read. It doesn't determine nor negate a writer's skillset.

Peace,

daughter

 

[alltherage]

If I concerned myself with who would not like something I wrote I might not ever write. I suppose that i tailor my writing to a degree. Certainly, what I have written here is tailored to the environment and the audiance. I find the freedom to write on the edges of my envelope here. In general, I find that my use of language and the style and flow of what I write is consistent with who I am. In that sense I am consistent. The language may vary but the flow does not.

I certainly would not want my children to read what I have written here at literotica. They are 6 an 4. The explainations alone would take eons. I would hope they would read my work in the future. To the extent that I write for adults in all my writing I admit to writing for an audiance. I write in english and that further narrows the field. There is no denying we have a certain audiance built in by the limitations of language. All I am saying is this audiance is not the reason I write.

 

[daughter]

introducing another element

alltherage--

You've introduced another element. I said nothing about why we write. Nothing wrong with discussing it either, but we could go all of the place and end up scratching our heads and asking "What was the focus of the discussion?

I realize this might sound anal, but I try not to talk about too many things at once. Call me simple or slow, but I'm scattered naturally. I work hard to focus on one thing at a time.

Your post illuminates a point I'm trying to make. Are you simply talking out loud, expressing how you feel or are you talking to me or the topic directly? Without knowing, I'm not sure if my response is appropriate.

Appreciate the dialogue though.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Couture]

I write for my audience. It is a lot of effort for me to take what is in my head and put it on paper. I know it isn't as difficult for some people, but for me it is.

First of all I have to try to just get it on 'paper'.

Then, I have to read that and fill in the gaps were the story on paper, doesn't match what was in my head.

Next, I go through and clean the errors up.

After that, I wait a while and look at it again and try to make sure I have chosen the appropriate word/sentence.

Finally, one last read through.

So, you see . . . by the time I'm finished, I'm pretty much tired of the story. Maybe the first draft was for me, but the rest of that work was for the fans. Honestly, if it wasn't for the feedback, I probably would never make it past the first draft.

That's just me. I'm sure all authors are different.

Cheers

Couture

 

[daughter]

exactly

Couture.

As the writer we know what we're thinking. The work is to make sure that we're thinking is on the paper and that the reader gets it.

If the reader likes or doesn't like it, is another matter. I would love for the audience to enjoy my work. But, it matters more to me that I have effectively said what I want to convey. That is contingent on comprehension. I need a reader for that.

Thanks for chiming in.

Peace,

daughter

 

[KillerMuffin]

I write to be heard. It's as simple as that.

It kind of hurts that the Literotica audiences as a whole think of me as a mediocre writer. Though the truth is, I don't think they really do.

I know the average Literotica reader. I've gotten emails from them too numerous to count.

"You're a great writer, but I didn't get off so I only gave you a {insert #1-4}."

I write to the people who enjoy what I write. I write to the people who automatically open up a KM story just because I wrote it. I write to people who like my writing, but they just don't get off on it so they don't give me great reviews.

Has it tempered what I write? Yes. Some of my worst pieces of tripe come from an attempt to appease that "didn't get off" readership. I tried to write something specifically geared to get people off. It didn't exactly work. "I got off, but it wasn't up to your usualy standard so I only gave you a {insert #1-4}."

Literotica readers as a whole want only a few things in a story they open here:

1. To be sexually excited by it.
2. To be entertained by it.
3. To enjoy the writing enough to get into the story.
4. To, if possible, orgasm by it.

These are exactly who I write to. My stories are tailored to be sexually stimulating in some way, to be entertaining or thought provoking, and to have the best writing I can put out. That's the only tailoring I do for my stories. I tried, but I can't write a "formula" story. Tawny T is a master at those.

I write for myself, of course. It's my hair shirt, it's my release, it's my avocation, it's my mistress, it's my flogger, it's all of me. However, when someone has criticism for something I've written and put out for public consumption, I accept it as a part of my dues.

You pay to write publicly and it's all emotional. You can't protect yourself from it either no matter how hard you try. You're stuck with the pain.

People can hollar about "I'm just writing for myself, I don't care if you like it or not" all they want. They're not only lying to everyone, they're lying to themselves. If you're just writing for yourself, don't post it.

Here's my list of never do's.

1: Don't make excuses for my writing.
2: Don't make public defense of my writing when it's attacked.
3: Don't debate the critic.
4: Don't invalidate someone else's opinion of my writing because it hurts my feelings.
5: Acknowledge that my writing is subject to approval every time it's read.

I wish I followed the rules more consistently...

 

[daughter]

(((d applauding)) as if you care

KillerMuffin--

Your posts are always so freakin' on point.

People can hollar about "I'm just writing for myself, I don't care if you like it or not" all they want. They're not only lying to everyone, they're lying to themselves. If you're just writing for yourself, don't post it.

Here's my list of never do's.

1: Don't make excuses for my writing.
2: Don't make public defense of my writing when it's attacked.
3: Don't debate the critic.
4: Don't invalidate someone else's opinion of my writing because it hurts my feelings.
5: Acknowledge that my writing is subject to approval every time it's read.

I wish I followed the rules more consistently...

Me, too. #4 and #5 are the hardest. Still, with experience the sting is bearable. I'd love to garner greater public approval, but the criticism has rendered me a better writer. The emotional price has been worth it.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Couture]

Muffin, there is a beauty in what Tawny writes and one only has to look at her overwhelming popularity to see this.

If Tawny's writing was strictly formula, then I doubt she would enjoy the success she has. She writes edgey stuff that stretches the boundaries of what literotica will allow and at the same time giving the reader some spicy sex-candy. When she writes a story, people respond and that's what it's all about.

 

[daughter]

formula writing

Muffin, there is a beauty in what Tawny writes and one only has to look at her overwhelming popularity to see this.

Couture, because Tawny is popular that means she writes well? Tell me she's a good writer because she's deft at weaving a plot, or complex characterization, pacing, themes, but popularity?

If Tawny's writing was strictly formula, then I doubt she would enjoy the success she has. She writes edgey stuff that stretches the boundaries of what literotica will allow and at the same time giving the reader some spicy sex-candy.

This is a far stronger argument, Couture. If you're not popular, does that mean you're a poor writer? Btw, some will argue that King is a formular writer. An agent told a group of aspiring writers that what singles out the successful is skill. Whole lot of folk have talent. Many know what to write. Too many fail to hone the how to. No single element makes a writer successful. The best have a combination.

Peace,

daughter

 

[KillerMuffin]

Couture, TT is strictly formula given that it's her own personal one. It's enormously succesful because it works for her.

Essentially, TT has about five characters. They have different names, occupations, and fetishes. However, there is a core group that fits her fantasies and appeals to her audience. They run along the same or similar plotlines. She has 3 plotlines. Hell, she only writes in three categories.

Formula is not equal to bad. Louis L'Amour was a formula writer. I enjoy the heck out of his stories. TT is a master at formula writing. Do you have any idea how frickin hard it is to master that? She's got about 50 stories, 5 characters, and about 2 themes. Do they all read the same to you?

I can't write formulaically. It makes me a lot less successful here than TT is because I can't deliver what people want over and over again like she can.

There is beauty to others in the way TT writes. She's immensely popular. I don't like TT's writings because I find that they aren't very fresh to me anymore. Why? I spot the formula about three paragraphs in.

Quit selling TT short, Couture, it's not very nice.

 

[Couture]

I don't see where I said anything bad about Tawny. I've read every one of her stories and I can count on two hands the number of authors I do that for on Lit.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I'm being bitchy today and any kind of criticism, particularly when I'm being taken to task for something that I didn't say, is a red flag in front of the irrational bull.

Quite frankly, I fail to see how calling Tawny T a master at writing to her audience requires you to condescend to explain to me all over again how well she writes. I found that to be vaguely insulting and quite presumptuous on your part. I do admit that it's the first time I've ever been criticised for expressing admiration for someone's skill before.

I don't have to like a person's writing to recognize their genius. Whether I like it or not, TT is a genius at what she does. Frankly, I see no beauty in her writing. There is nothing extraordinary or envelope pushing in my view. In fact once you've read a few TT stories, you've pretty much read them all. Just like Louis L'Amour.

She gets a lot of my admiration and no little envy from the plain and simple fact that she's mastered formula writing. She can deliver the same product over and over again and make people think she's writing something new. That takes talent, and that's talent I don't think that I have.

I understand writing very well. I may not do it well, but I understand it. I've been studying it for nearly as long as I've been alive.

You CANNOT equate a "formula" writing with "bad writing." It is not. It's an extremely successful writing technique, but only if you master it. I don't think you have the first clue about formula writing if you think popularity and writing ability is the only way to guage whether or not something is formula or isn't. Formula writing has a bad name because most of the people who are noticed for it are noticed because they do it badly. Formula writing is nothing more than a technique to get a story produced. Tawny T is a master at it. I mean master in the same sense that Leonardo da Vinci was a master.

Tawny T is one of the best writers at Literotica, if not the best. It has jack shit to do with writing ability. It has everything to do with the fact that TT knows her audience and she writes directly to them in such a perfect manner.

All of us can sit here an offer feedback, critique, writing courses, ideas, and whatever lectures our egos think to carve out for us until hell freezes over. Like daughter pointed out from the very beginning and like TT has a completely innate sense of, you have to write to your audience.

I've not only read all of her offerings here, I've dissected them. I'm still trying to figure out how she does it and I can't. I don't have the ability to write formula any better than I can write poetry. I can do it, but it's not very good. I'm sure there's a gem or two in there, but that's the size of it.

I don't like the way she writes, I don't like her stories. However, TT could give a class on writing to your audience better than anyone else here.

 

[Natalie Nessus]

I Write because I Must

A seed is planted and the story grows in my head until I can not ignore it It is then I must put it down mostly in a rush. My editor points out the little things, repairs it and then it is published.

I am of course flattered by comments no matter what they are and I politely acknowlede but I do not think I will change my stories for them.

 

[mskittykatt]

Hello and Well Met Everyone,
I am not experienced enough with different writing styles (oh surprise) or knowledgeable with consideration to Tawny’s writing to comment on that aspect of this thread.
I would like to thank Daughter and KM, (as well as many others here) for their patience and interest in helping others learn and grow in their writing. The things brought up in this thread are hard, but important to face, at least for me. I had never given much thought to the “delivery” of my stories, ideas or poetry before very recently. Quite frankly I was the spoiled daughter of an English professor who praised most of what I wrote, probably as a result of seeing so many less interested or passionate writers in her classes.
It has been many years since I focused on my creative writing, and I am thrilled beyond words to have found a group of people that care enough about writing to work with us new to public sharing. There is indeed a great difference in writing for friends or lovers, or a classroom paper, then in writing entertainment for a specific audience! I am starting to see it’s all about delivery. I can still write of the things dear to me personally, even honoring a friend or a lover but to post for public view it needs to be delivered in a much different way then if I were to just email the person specifically.
I appreciate the topic, and will keep reading, writing and learning!!

 

[TheDR4KE]

love and art

Interesting thread, once again, daughter

In regards to writing for approval, we are trained to equate love with value judgements, and not even necessarily positive ones. What love should be about is connection, trust, communication. Our biggest driver is whatever we think of as love.

Basically there are two types of interaction that you have with others. In one you communicate about a topic, and in the other you give value statements.

What we really want to do is to communicate with others, to share our thoughts, our perceptions, our ideas. The goal is the sharing. This is not what we normally get though. And when we don't, then problems arise.

Usually this begins in childhood. Rather than getting the first, healthy, kind of interaction (called 'love' in the book "Drama of the Gifted Child" that also talks a fair bit about this) we get a false love that is expressed through value statements. But how can we understand what those statements are based on if we don't talk about our actions? A child draws something and is told that it is great. That's not what the child wants. It wants to communicate.

Ask it what it has drawn, comment on the colours, anything but value statements. You'll notice that the child won't notice at all that you're not heaping praise on it! That is a very important observation. Another interesting observation is that the child will keep pushing if you just say "That's wonderful." And another young child will push to get approval when it sees that behaviour.
You to Child 1: "You're very good."
Child 2: "Me too?"
The second child doesn't get pushy in that sort of jealous way when you are just talking. They'll also want to interact, but it's in a very different mood! If you don't get that sort of interaction, you'll do whatever you can to get positive value statements rather than negative ones. And if they dry up (if you're not doing very well when you get beyond the stage where everything you do is wonderful as a young child for example) then you'll probably start to crave negative value statements. At least it's a response, an interaction. Look at teenagers, and even 'problem' kids from age 8 or so on.

Thus begins a self-identification with the things that you do, and the responses that you get to these, rather than with the self that you are. And then a cycle happens:

1. Grandiosity, where you build yourself up based on your successes. (Craving positive affirmation.)
2. Depression, where you realise at a subconscious level that the self identified with your actions is hollow.
3. You do the only thing you know to do: you start again with Step 1.

The flip-side also occurs, where people go to the negative extremes of behaviour to define themselves, and then get depressed afterwards. Repeat.

Many gifted people feel that they never reach their potential. They perform amazing feats of music or wherever their talents lie, and then lie awake feeling depressed because it is not enough to build a life on.

But some people do the things that they know they do well, but do them to express who they are. The 'calling' to do something. You'll have heard of people who write poetry or perform music, because they would go crazy if they didn't. It's performing for the sake of music. It's not for the sake of the audience (although when you perform for the music, it is usually very good and people love listening to it. It's true communication.)

So why do people need to feel accepted? And this is a seemingly common need of everyone! Because they are taught that love is acceptance, rather than just interaction, where acceptance inherently includes approval. What people really need is to interact with others.

From what I've seen, those people I really respect (and that most people respect) have gone well beyond the need for approval. That lends an air of authority to them as well. They speak/act because they believe in what they do. And you can only believe in that if what you say/do comes from within you and is done for the joy of doing it. There are many things that I wouldn't be able to do or do well, because they give me no joy. I would then inevitably get drawn into the approval cycle, looking to people who do it better than I to see how I'm going. Self conscious... Often we do have to do things that don't resonate with us, but if we can keep in mind that we are nevertheless expressing our inner self, and that it's the doing, not the judgement, that counts, we can work through it. I'd like to pick up any task as a joyous expression of my self, but I'm not there yet

So we write poetry, stories, whatever we tend to be good at. And the really good works are the ones where we found something within us that we wanted to express, to get out. It doesn't really matter whether someone reads it mostly. Except when we're inspired by a muse, when we want to express something for someone for whatever reason (love, hate, lust, etc )

Art is the process. Poems are artefacts only. It's a long journey to find your empowered Self - but the beauty is that you can use art as part of that journey, to strengthen the good and to banish the bad.

Enjoy

Drake

 

[VeraGem]

Coming to a Confusion

In searching myself, I find that I'm hard pressed to admit that I write solely for myself. My very first story was written ten years ago for the benefit of a creative writing instructor. My most recent story was written in first draft to see if I could pull it off, then second drafted with the help of my lover, (also a writer), with the audience in mind.

Honestly though it seems futile, on a certain level, to attempt to figure out the audience. Some stuff I think is wonderful gets panned, while other stuff I'd call garbage hovers for months in the top lists. I'm new to posting/publishng and right now I take the ratings to heart - maybe too much. I've started and stopped a lot of stories. In fact, there are over a dozen in my unfinished file at the moment, some a paragraph long, some several pages, all stuck. Are they stuck because I'm truly clueless about how to proceed or because I'm thinking too much of the audience? Both, I think - and I think one may stem from the other.

The bottom line for me is this: I need to stop caring about the audience, at least on the first draft. (Maybe I should drink more heavily on the first draft - but I usually work at six in the morning.) I should, no, make that shall, go back to writing for myself alone. I'll worry about the consequences later.

 

[daughter]

approval vs communicate

The Dr4ke--

Thanks for expounding on why we write and what we are trying to accomplish. There are pronounced cries about doing this for ourselves. You've pointed out the joy and value in this.

Considering audience isn't about winning their approval, rather it is about comprehension. If you have something you want to communicate than there is a need to be understood. There is no communication between parties if the recipient doesn't comprehend what you're saying.

Yes, I'd love for my reader to enjoy my work. Not denying that. What matters more is that I have been heard. Someone explain how writing for yourself does not mean you don't want to be heard.

You don't want approval? No argument. Does it matter that someone hears what you are saying?

Food for thought. As usual toss or use.

Peace,

daughter

 

[garyblue]

Re: approval vs communicate

... rather it is about comprehension. If you have something you want to communicate than (sic) there is a need to be understood. There is no communication between parties if the recipient doesn't comprehend what you're saying.


Peace,

daughter

Yeah, what you said.

g

 

[Bitch Boy]

I have read this thread top to bottom, I guess because I found it an interesting topic.

It would be unrealistic for anyone to say they write ONLY for themselves, if they then release their work to an audience. To the extent that this statement is true, I agree with what daughter has written.

However I find for the most part that the thought processes here are too clinical (for example the references to what we learn in school?!).

I write to express myself, plain and simple. I am a lover of the English language, the medium I write in. I love vocabulary, I love using words to express how I feel. I obtain an incredible amount of enjoyment from completing something in writing, then looking at it and saying to myself, "That was good!"

In a quite specific way then, my "audience" is me, and so I could use that familiar refrain "I write only for myself".

But the truth is, if I wrote ONLY for myself, or for a lover, I would not publicise it anywhere, like here, for example.

Why do I?

In all honesty, because I seek to bask in the praise and adulation which I usually receive from doing so. I seek endorsement, that what I enjoyed creating, someone else, a total stranger, will enjoy reading.

I don't want criticism, but I must accept that inviting feedback is an open book, so I accept any criticism I do receive.

That doesn't mean I don't want to improve my writing, or that I think I am particularly talented.

It simply means that I want to retain my focus, which is directed not at skills or technical expertise, but on the positive, rewarding and enjoyable process of simply writing.

 

[TheDR4KE]

Re: approval vs communicate

Considering audience isn't about winning their approval, rather it is about comprehension. If you have something you want to communicate than there is a need to be understood. There is no communication between parties if the recipient doesn't comprehend what you're saying.

Yes, I'd love for my reader to enjoy my work. Not denying that. What matters more is that I have been heard. Someone explain how writing for yourself does not mean you don't want to be heard.

You don't want approval? No argument. Does it matter that someone hears what you are saying?

When I am inspired and write to express that inspiration, letting the fire burn its' black sigils onto the paper in front of me, I write for me and me alone. If my work doesn't resonate with a reader, then that is as it is.

That's writing as art.

When I write for my profession, clearly I target it completely at the intended audience. The same as when I give presentations, do training courses, stand in front of my class for a lecture.

That's writing and public speaking as communication.

When I'm with my peers, giving a seminar on my research, where I know that they are able to understand, I let go and let my passion for my work drive my expression.

That's religion ;-)

Drake

PS I think I was too tired when I posted last night to really get the drift of the thread -- sorry for my lengthy off topic diatribe

 

[gracelet]

why would i WANt to write ??

as a writer wanna be i can only say why id WANT to write
if i ever got pen to paper it would be because i feel that a story has come alive in my head and is DONE . Id want to write because i can virtually see smell and taste the story line and i want someone else to get emotionally involved ( though not neccessarily in the same manner ) as i am. For me the story would be like a child , fully formed and hungering fror someone to wpick it up.
i guess the reason ive never written then would be that none of the babies ive concieved have been mature enough to survive outside the womb of my mind !!