I need Some help please

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

I am currently taking part in a group of individuals and the discussion of BDSM has come up.

I have taken the side of defending BDSM even though I am a vanilla to the core.

The problem with this group is the only thing they see when it comes to the words BDSM is the Hollywood Bastardization of it and think taht all who are are sick and dysfuctionalpeople.

I would like if you would be as kind to me as to respond in a civil well thought out manner to some of the posts that they have posted to me. I thought that you would be the people to ask and to give appropriate answers. Some of the stuff is there personal opinion and some is stuff of the internet. And all of it is a bastardized version of BDSM.

These people think its all about slicing your partner like a corpse, beating them to a pulp and other hollywood styled BDSM.

Please help me show them how wrong that view is. Please respond if you can in a well thought out manner in civil tones, harsh words will not turn these peoples minds.

Thank you in advance. The next two or threee posts are what I would like you to respond to. Agan thank you in advance. You all rock.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

#1

Relational problems

Relational problems may arise mainly for two reasons: either one of the partners is too afraid to risk his or her entire relationship and avoids the subject of erotic power exchange or is rejected or misunderstood by the other partner when they do broach the subject. These elements may also be the underlying problem in a parent/child conflict.It is important to identify that approximately 30 percent of the people attracted to or fascinated by erotic power exchange, have developed or identified such emotions at a very young age: between the age of five and twelve. Well over fifty percent of the entire group has identified erotic power exchange emotions before the age of eighteen. Since the period between first identification and the first careful steps in the coming out process will - on average - be something between ten and twenty years (during which time these emotions generally speaking will be kept very secret but valued as - although often scary - very personal and important) the increasing difficulty many people have with these feelings is obvious.In many cases, coming out (or better not coming out at all or too late) is the basis for all other problems, such as these. Frequently, the person involved will have nurtured these emotions himself or herself for a long time before even starting to talk about them. Fear of being rejected and fixation on these emotions have only accumulated and thus things are likely to explode. An extra factor to take into account here is that the existing relationship obviously did not have sufficient quality and trust so the partner in question has always been afraid to talk about it.Relational problems may take a form that is not easy to combine with erotic power exchange: such as irritation, lack of sexual interest, sex outside the relationship and visiting prostitutes and BDSM clubs. The latter two may very well cause financial problems and all are likely to be at the root of unidentified guilt. In individual cases, even though the partners can express their feelings, the social environment may make it impossible for them to give their emotions the proper outlet, such as having children, neighborhood influences or outright fear for consequences.

Contact problems and self questioning

Contact problems, as well as loneliness and separation, are usually a result of the other three problems. This may also result from the fact that the person over-prioritizes his or her erotic power exchange emotions when searching for a partner, as a result of which he/she will fail to find a partner. Depending on the self-confidence and self-esteem of the person involved, this may lead to temporary or permanent problems.Problems in these areas will usually identify themselves to professionals as relational problems, divorce, unsociable behavior, loneliness, sexual problems, family problems, excessive drinking, drug abuse, self-centering or even attempted suicide. At an early age, an inability to socialize or learning problems may also be indications.Another common response to the uncertainty about whether or not erotic power exchange behavior and emotions are acceptable and "normal" is an effort to split erotic power exchange emotions and activity from every-day-life by assuming another identity during epe-activities. This may go as far as using other names and different social behavior. This effort to try and bring some form of order in the confusion by the person involved may lead to temporary or permanent identity problems.A very specific form of symptomatic behavior as a result of contact problems is auto-SM, which in itself is harmless. However, people who fall into the negative spiral as a result of (the fear of) rejection may not only experiment with themselves but while doing so will try to incorporate both roles within themselves, eventually totally losing touch with the basic emotions and developing a multiple personality disorder as well as guilt feelings in the process.Another piece of confusion: sexual experiments are very normal during adolescence. Erotic power exchange related experiments - such as self-bondage - may very well be a part of this. That as such however, is no indication erotic power exchange emotions have been developed or will be in a later stage.It is not uncommon for people, who identify erotic power exchange emotions, to start to question themselves as well as their emotions. The fear of "turning into a sadist", or worse "a monster" is very real to many people. Considering the fact that these emotions may emerge at a very young age they are a likely to become a serious problem in many cases. Many fear that once they start, they will become addicted and will need more and more. Social taboo, stereotyping, prejudice and prejudiced legislation are causes for this, combined with incomplete or sometimes ignorant sexual education.These fears - as described probably nurtured for just as long a period as the emotions themselves - may lead people alienating from their social environment and losing touch with reality.

Erotic power exchange and other sexual behavior

A considerable number of people with erotic power exchange emotions will combine EPE with other forms of sexual behavior. Fetishism in some form - such as a fascination for leather, rubber and latex, lingerie, high heels, foot worship and forms of cross dressing and gender bending - is the most common combination. Others are strict role-oriented play forms such as doctor/patient, teacher/pupil, governess/pupil, uncle/niece. Partner exchange, exhibitionism and forms of group sexuality may also be combined with erotic power exchange. It is important to understand that these forms are not a part of the erotic power exchange emotions as such, but are mainly used to express the power element in some form. Pornography would have everyone to believe that urolagnia and coprolagnia (a.k.a. watersports and scatalogical play) are a more or less standard element of erotic power exchange, just as pain lust (algolagnia). While in individual cases this may be true, these are certainly not common characteristics of EPE. Next to this, people involved in erotic power exchange may have fantasies of all kinds; their active involvement in erotic power exchange activity does not mean they have the intention to realize their entire fantasy. In fact, what usually happens is that the fantasy as such remains a fantasy and the active play only contains parts of the fantasy or other circumstances, that may trigger or stimulate the fantasy. This is especially true for the heterosexual Maledom/femsub culture.Although the gay community is somewhat more assertive about their sexual preferences, the assumption that erotic power exchange is mainly a gay-game is untrue. Research (Cosmopolitian, June 1997) shows that 43 percent of the American heterosexual couples have considered or actively incorporated spanking in their lovemaking; bondage 36 percent, whipping 9 percent and urolagnia 7 percent. In Europe, in general, 25% of the adult population has or has had erotic power exchange related fantasies (Intomart and NIPO 1994). Pornography and prostitution, although probably the most outward indications of erotic power exchange, paint a very stereotypical picture that does not describe the reality of erotic power exchange.Juvenile traumas and child abuse will be found within the erotic power exchange community, just as it will in any other segment of the population. It does not appear in any ratio greater than in those segments. Just as other significant influences in people's lives - such as the quality of parenting, education, the environment, religion, etc., have an impact on development, childhood trauma or abuse may contribute to the way already existing - but possibly latent - erotic power exchange emotions will develop. However, juvenile or other traumas and abuse are not "a cause" for the development of erotic power exchange emotions, as has long been assumed. By itself, juvenile trauma or (child) abuse is not a problem in an erotic power exchange relationship, as long as it is identified as a contributor to personality and erotic power exchange is not used in some pseudo-therapeutic manner. Erotic power exchange behavior should never be confused with a need for attention.A potential risk in this area is that - as a result of the closeness, intensity and the specific power dynamics between partners - erotic power exchange may take on an unwanted therapeutic character. This may lead to people withdrawing from or not turning to professional help (which usually is a combination of this effect and the feeling the person in question is - or will be - misunderstood by the professional) but laying the burden on the dominant partner.

What "causes" erotic power exchange emotions and when do they emerge first?

There are hardly any "general rules" when it comes to erotic power exchange. That certainly is true for the question what "causes" the development of erotic power exchange emotions. There are many theories, however none of them is based on fundamental scientific research. Scientific publications present research finding for work usually based on either individuals or very small groups and decent general large scale research has never been done. More importantly, almost all scientific publications concern people and their "treatment" who sought help from professionals, not well-adjusted people capable of making their own choices in a safe, sane, informed and consentual way. Therefore, there is no real answer to this question and - to most of the people who are into erotic power exchange - the answer to this question is entirely unimportant.More recent results from research in various molecular biology and medical areas points to genetic as well as biological factors, that may well be significantly more important to sexual behavior and sexual preference than purely psychological factors. It is becoming apparent that the influences of various hormones (adrenaline, endorphins, steroids, pheromones and others) play an important role in erotic power exchange behavior.There are also great differences in the moment erotic power exchange emotions emerge. As described, recent and not-yet-terminated research by the POWERotics Foundation indicates 50 percent of the people who responded recollect erotic power exchange emotions prior to their 18th birthday, the majority of them even before the age of 12. They may emerge at an age as early as five, six or seven. Others develop (or discover) erotic power exchange emotions at a later age, quite often after a fundamental change in their personal life, such as a divorce. Some others respond emotionally to an external impulse or stimuli, such as reading a book or seeing a movie.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

#2

And yes it is about pain in relation the endorphins that are released in the brain to cause pleasure from pain. Convoluted to say the least.



The pain center in the brain, the fear center, and the sex pleasure centers are close to each other, which is why every teen aged boy knows to take his female date to a slasher movie. Friday the 13th = pain, fear, sex. oh wow.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

#3

Ok all....I'm breaking in on this one. I've had more on my plate over the past week than I ever wanted. Everything from power outages, to dirty laundry that's not even belonging to anyone in this house that I did.......but when I come back and find THIS in the mail?!?!?
Todd....NAMEWITHDRAWN is 100000% correct. Morally, physically, emotionally, medically and scientifically......psychologically and the list goes on. Having this type of a lifestyle does one thing. It hurts people. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. It hurts.
Having this type of a lifestyle can literally damage the human body, and over time, it can also cause permanent damages, long term pains and ailments, lowering the body's physical and psychological resistance to healing after colds, flus and other minor illnesses. The physical body becomes so damaged over a long period of time that it slowly becomes nearly impossible for a person's muscular structure, (both internally and externally) to fully heal. Any external markings that once went away over a short period of time.....now remain. Permanently.
Let me ask this.....just given the medical facts alone....20 years from this point, if you have lived this type of a lifestyle, regularly.....and have the inescapable markings on your skin......how do you explain this to anyone who asks?
What if your child comes to you and says...."Daddy....how did you get that on your arm?"......what is he going to say? "Mommy gave it to me during sex! Cool huh?".....I think not.
I do not THINK this is a completely unhealthy type of a lifestyle......I KNOW it is. What I know about this.....from seeing the results first hand......from having to try and explain to those people what they've allowed to happen to them.....to tell a woman of 25 that she no longer is going to be able to have children because her uterine walls are too damaged.....from having to tell a man that he now has to go into surgery, to have a skin grafting done on his penis, because it's so raw and worn, damaged and scarred, that if he does not....the alternative life, would be so painful that it would drive him to something far worse than more pain........therefore......I will tell you all this, in the same manner that I would begin to tell anyone this......
"It is of my personal and professional belief that this type of a damaging lifestyle should be somehow erased off the face of this planet for if does nothing more than hurt.....and sometimes....it kills."
Any questions?

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

#4

Todd - BDSM, isn't about pain, though sadly thats what the media presents so thats what people think it is




Yes.......it is. Sorry Todd....this one comes from a medical point of view. It does indeed have to do with pain. There is no other way to sugar coat this or say it more nicely......it does indeed have to do with pain.

 

[WriterDom]

Welcome back Todd to the land of kink. Did you see the christian bdsm link in the religion thread here? You may find it interesting.

I've haven't seen any research on the long term effects of bdsm play on the body. That's an interesting topic.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Welcome back Todd to the land of kink. Did you see the christian bdsm link in the religion thread here? You may find it interesting.

I've haven't seen any research on the long term effects of bdsm play on the body. That's an interesting topic.

Yes, I saw the thread, Don't recall the link at the moment.

I do recall some of the scriptures you posted.

I plan on replying to the thread sometime, just trying to find appropriate words.

I know you and Cymbidia know me and know I mean no ill will to BDSM community because you both and a couple of tothers , who names allude me at the moment I apologize, taught me a lot about the lifestyle choice. as a result of which, though I am Vanilla to the core, I now respect and not fear or dipise this choice.

I still want to choose the right wording as to not offend those who do not know me and may view me a a vanilla medlder dealing with something i don't know.

I will check out the link on your recommendation

 

[cymbidia]

To y'all:
Todd means us no harm.
Quite the reverse, actually.






But Todd?
My brain is mush right now. I cannot wade through your monster posts and make any sense at all of them. Not right now. Would you please do this:

Take each monster post and compress it down into about four or five pithy and well chosen sentences. Paraphrase if you have to.

We'll respond to stuff if we understand what you want of us - and if you don't ask us to read a fucking book and pull meaning from the tome as we do it.

Please?

 

[lilredwolph]

Thanks Cym, I have reread this over a bunch of times and my head starts swimming, answers pop into my head, then I fear I'm off topic and everthing I was thinking turns to mush, but I wasn't sure if it was me, glad to know it's not

 

[KillerMuffin]

Perhaps PMing core BDSMers that you trust with the URL to this "argument" might be better. Ones that would be interested in this debate.

BDSM is a very in depth sub-culture both from the psychological and sociological standpoint. I've been studying it rather hard for more than a year now and I still don't quite understand all of it. I know enough to hold my own in most cases, but there are things that I can't explain.

You will not be able to refute these arguments by yourself. Particularly when you don't have the psychology/sociology background to do it with. Not with so little information and such badly written arguments/questions that need rebutting.

 

[monster666]

Gee, so much for our high-minded, exclusionary snob rep. Oh well, I'll miss it but I suppose the readers' digest version will suffice.

To y'all:
Todd means us no harm.
Quite the reverse, actually.






But Todd?
My brain is mush right now. I cannot wade through your monster posts and make any sense at all of them. Not right now. Would you please do this:

Take each monster post and compress it down into about four or five pithy and well chosen sentences. Paraphrase if you have to.

We'll respond to stuff if we understand what you want of us - and if you don't ask us to read a fucking book and pull meaning from the tome as we do it.

Please?

 

[RisiaSkye]

Re: #4

#3:
"It is of my personal and professional belief that this type of a damaging lifestyle should be somehow erased off the face of this planet for if does nothing more than hurt.....and sometimes....it kills."
Any questions?

and..

#4
Yes.......it is. Sorry Todd....this one comes from a medical point of view. It does indeed have to do with pain. There is no other way to sugar coat this or say it more nicely......it does indeed have to do with pain.

I'm lumping these two together, as they make essentially the same argument, one just uses more strident and irritatingly off-base language. They read like the same person, just more arrogant in one post than in the other. So, I'll look at them together.

There are several problems with this person's assertions. I'm not going to address all of the posts, but these are the most glaringly ignorant of them, so I'll start here.

First, BDSM is a large umbrella, encompassing Bondage/Discipline, Dominance/submission, and Sadism/Masochism. This person is concerned only with Masochism. The synecdoche doesn't work, which anyone with even a basic understanding of Aristotelian logic (like an alleged medical professional) should well know. Much of BDSM has nothing at all to do with pain or even mildly edgy sensation play.

Dismissing an entire realm of possible sexual fantasy and play by relegating it all to a junk-heap of damaging and cumulative painful experience is the worst kind of reductionism, and the furthest possible thing from a scientific sample or the presentation of compelling evidence.

Second, the reference to "medical point of view" is worse than useless to the discussion. Medical science changes all the time, and even the psychiatric community--a branch (albeit a tenuously scientific one) of the medical realm has had to stop portraying BDSM as sexual deviance and pathology, because it is both more widespread (thus less "deviant") and more philosophically grounded (thus less "unconscious") than previously believed. Even limiting the scope of inquiry to those things which are about pain, Masochism and Sadism were both removed from the DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) in 1994. The DSM-V (due in the next 18 months) will also not list them as pathologies.

Not to mention, a vanilla health care practitioner is only going to see people who need medical treatment. Most people do not make visits to their health care practitioners, paricularly when so many are without healthcare options, unless they require medical intervention. So, extrapolating this one person's professional medical experience with the physically damaged represents a biased pool at best, and a misleading overstatement and misinterpretation of limited data at the core.

Also, the person makes no claims and offers no evidence about just what kind of medicine they mean to invoke as their ultimate proof here.

Third, there is compelling developing scientific evidence that within constrained limits, the infliction of minor "pain" or eroticized sensation does nothing physically damaging, and may even offer psychological and emotional benefits. Run a google search for Spanking studies--Europe for an interesting and medically verified (repeated study) example.

Further, this is a subject of cultural debate that's been going on for centuries if not milennia, and in all realms of academe. In some quarters (particularly among the humanities), masochism is seen as a fundamental function of cultural memory, guilt & reparations, and even the basic formation of personal identity. As such, it's both indemic to humanity and utterly ineradicable without completely changing the nature of human society and relationships. Here's a link to an extensive bibliography on S & M in the past & present, and its role in modern society:

http://www.georgetown.edu/grad/CCT/tbase/csbib.html

Fourth, universalizing based on isolated experiences is difficult to verify, and provides an impossibly narrow scope of evidence. The fact that this person believes they have seen the horrible after-effects of a few botched BDSM relationships does not equate their experience with that of the majority, nor does it imply that their judgements reflect an interaction with a fair representative sample.

It seems to me that this person has had a few negative experiences with people who've been damaged, and has turned this into the representation of everyone in this sub-culture. That's yet another troubling reduction that even a minimally competent debater wouldn't stand for--so I question why they're doing it. What do they gain by this--other than a "justifiable" reason to shy away from people they already consider scary, and about whom they clearly have next to no actual understanding?

Finally (though I could go on), relying on "science" as the one and only way to determine reality is not only limiting, it's most frequently used as a way to marginalize, not to understand. The history of science is littered with pseudo-conclusive "studies" like phrenology, eugenics, behavior differentials, and gender determinance genetics. It's shaky ethical ground at best, and this person would do well to not only check their facts but to also examine their conscience: are they medically certain having compared large pools of people in this culture that masochism creates long-term problems, or just scared of the kooky weirdos?

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

RisiaSkye,

thank you very much for your well expounded answer. May I ask what your occupational back ground is? nothing speciifc just a general field. Would you give the other posts a shot as well when you get a chance?

Killer Muffin,

its not a website, its a mailing thread list, I did give there complete statements

Cym,

I don't know how to compress those staements without losing thier point and clarity.





Thanks y'all

 

[RisiaSkye]

I'm a Ph.D. candidate in Cultural Studies, specialized in portrayals of violence; I also teach classes which focus on analyzing texts about insanity and social deviance. My undergraduate studies were in English and physiology; I started in medicine and have worked in health care clinics and for U of Az's medical faculty.

Oh, and you're welcome.

 

[PhoenixPrime]

PhoenixPrime in re the BDSM Lifestyle:

Hello Todd. My online name is PhoenixPrime and I've lived the BDSM Lifestyle for decades in one way or another. I'll try to reply from my personal experience and point of view. If you wish more from me please PM or email me at (I'm very sorry i had to delete your email addy, PhoenixPrime but they aren't allowed to posted in the open here, a rule designed to discourage trollers. I'm fairly sure you're not one of that breed and just as sure you'd agree that the rules here have to be applied equally to all of us. Thank you for your understanding in this matter.
cym, BDSM Forum moderator)

#1: Relational problems:
I was one of those, when playing cowboys and indians or child's game like it-which were politically correct back then, who was always the one who tied the ‘damsel in distress'. It took several year to understand why I found it ‘exciting'.
In high school an adventurous girl friend let me understand more clearly as she was willing to experiment in ‘bondage' and light spanking of the erotic not punishment type.
I've been involved in the Lifestyle since and have found my Lifestyle relationships more open, more honest and deeper than vanilla ones I've had.
I've never visited a prostitute but have gone to several Clubs not as a necessity but a choice. I can ‘play' at home and have always been able to regardless of children or neighbors. Sometimes it takes patience or ingenuity but it's done.
By the way I live in the SE's Bible Belt so bear that in mind as you read my replies.

#2:
As I imagine you've ascertained I grew up in the late 50's and 60's. I was extremely fortunate in having that girlfriend, until family moved away. Then it was several years before I ‘found' another.
During that time I had several very satisfying vanilla relationships, although not of the intensity of an EPE relationship. I didn't feel ‘short changed' by the lack of Erotic Power Exchange, it was just a different type relationship.
Today, however, things are far more open and with the advent of the PC and Internet it's far easier to make contact with those with similar interests and wants. Make no mistake there are a lot of players, wannabes, etc on the Net but at least there are also many who are honest and ‘real' as well as a wealth of information it took me years to discover and glean.
Safety measures must be taken, but at least it's possible to talk, share information, etc before any face to face meeting. In my younger years it was just ‘luck' to find a submissive miss.
As for ‘turning into a sadist or monster' that was never a consideration. I give pain to enhance pleasure or to punish not for just the sake of hurting.
Endorphins are the body's natural reaction to pain stimuli and result in the often talked about ‘Runner's High'. That "High" can also immeasurably increase the intensity of pleasurable feeling and the intensity of orgasms. Ask any who've been there and experienced it first hand. I, personally, use the analogy of a coin. Pain is one face of the coin and pleasure is the other. A skilled Dom/me can bring a submissive to where the two meet in the center of the coin. Once one has experienced that, called sub space, it's difficult to ever forget or ignore.
These things you've enumerated: "Social taboo, stereotyping, prejudice and prejudiced legislation" as well as the erroneous outlook of the vanilla and Puritanical people are the cause of the Lifestyle being quasi underground even today.
It makes no difference that it's two consenting adults engaging in an activity they mutually enjoy and with to engage in. Just another type of prejudice that needs to be overcome and the way to do that is with honest information not from porno mags or books or Hollywood tripe.
Speaking of Hollywood have you noticed the amount of Lifestyle ‘activities' in movies, especially now that they are more graphic? Why? Because a large segment of the American Public wants it that's why. If they didn't it would stop as they'd stop going to see movies with that content included. It's just that they are ‘afraid' of being ostracized if there inclinations were know so it stays in the closet or bedroom.
I saw a ‘study' and sorry that I can recall the source that stated that over 75% of the American Public have at least an interest in the Lifestyle, that 50% have actually tried and may do so off and on as a form of foreplay and that approximately 30% actively life the Lifestyle, although perhaps just within the confines of the home or bedroom.

"Causes":
Also don't forget the long recognized behaviors in the animal kingdom in re Alpha and beta males and females.
Is it wrong to be the Dominant (Alpha) one in a relationship and have a submissive (beta) partner just because legislation, NOW, religion says it is? I think not.
As long as it's fully Consensual and done in a Safe and Sane manner is it any more wrong than any vanilla sexual activity other than the legally approved ‘missionary position', which in many states is the Only legal position for intercourse or sex activities.

#2:
Laughing* for me it was the original Psycho and other Hitchcock movies.

#3:
If that's the case how did I live to nearly 60 years of age and, other than a recent severe back injury, find no other problems physical or psychological nor have any I know. The only ‘permanent marks' are those mutually agreed to like tattoos or piercing. In over 30 years, I've Never met a submissive with ‘permanent bruises' and those are the most common Lifestyle activity mark. You are painting with far to broad a brush and I'm not sure just how many from the Lifestyle you've 'seen' and how many were a result of abusive relationships. There's a World of difference in the two I assure you. True Dominants abhorr abuse in any form physical or psychological, unlike how we're protrayed.

#4:
Wholehearted agreement. It's a Power Exchange. A voluntary and consensual surrender of power to another... submitting. Pain may or may not come into a Lifestyle relationship depending on what's been mutually agreed to by the participants.

RisiaSkye:
And the crowd roared in appreciation of your very logical and eloquent post. My thanks as I could never have said it as well.

In conclusion Todd, may I suggest that you visit CastleRealm.com as a source and be sure to read the Dedication.
As I said contact me anytime you wish and I'll do my best to answer any question you may have and if I can't I'll danged sure try to find an answer for you.
Master PhoenixPrime

 

[RisiaSkye]

Phoenix: Thanks for the compliment. You're welcome, I guess. I don't quite know how to respond; it's not often I'm thanked for being such a long winded beyatch.

 

[PhoenixPrime]

To RisiaSkye with a smile:

The 'Thanks' was more than sufficient.
As for being a 'long winded beyatch' wellllllll is that a bad thing? If 'long winded' then you can hold your breath longer while you're, ummm.... skin diving yeah that's it skin diving. *Rolling On The Floor Laughing*. I do love puns.
PP

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

PhoenixPrime,

Thank you very much for your long winded response, the verbosity aided in its clairity.

Ok thats the best I can do for fancy speak.

Thank you for your response, I do aprreciate it.

to date after Risia and your response to there hollywood bastardiazation they are strangely silent.

Once again thanks