I need a female perspective

[figarojonez]

I'm writing a story in which a woman has a schizophrenic break and does something horrible. The film focuses on her stay at the asylum. Well, I have it mostly completed, but in contemplating her character, I've determined she has issues with her mother. However, I'd like it to be at least semi-realistic, and not one of those female perspectives uncomfortably written by a male.

What would constitute real issues women have had with their mothers? Any help would be vastly appreciated.

 

[Carnevil9]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't believe you should be asking women to answer this question.

In my experience, all women have issues with their mothers (uh oh, here come the objections!). And their views of this question will all be clouded by those very issues!

If you are a man, which I assume you are, you probably have a more objective view of the problem than they do. Go with your feelings, Luke!

My own observations are that most women tend to become more and more like their own mothers as time goes on, so that by the time they reach their thirties or forties, they have adopted most or all of their own mother's foibles. And yet they will reject the truth of that transformation, and therein lies their cognitive dissonance.

(Lest anyone think that I am a sexist, I also believe that most men have similar issues with their fathers; so there!)......Carney

 

[scheherazade_79]

I get on fine with my mother

 

[figarojonez]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't believe you should be asking women to answer this question.

In my experience, all women have issues with their mothers (uh oh, here come the objections!). And their views of this question will all be clouded by those very issues!

If you are a man, which I assume you are, you probably have a more objective view of the problem than they do. Go with your feelings, Luke!

My own observations are that most women tend to become more and more like their own mothers as time goes on, so that by the time they reach their thirties or forties, they have adopted most or all of their own mother's foibles. And yet they will reject the truth of that transformation, and therein lies their cognitive dissonance.

(Lest anyone think that I am a sexist, I also believe that most men have similar issues with their fathers; so there!)......Carney

I can see where you're coming from (though I won't agree or disagree. I've seen women on both sides about their relationships with their mothers), however, it's coming from her perspective. So I need what a woman would say/feel, and to sound natural.

 

[English Lady]

My mum is turning into her mum and I am turning into my mum

My issue with my mum is that as lovely as she is she is very controlling. I was wrapped in cotton wool as a kid and a far as she can she still tries to ocntrol my decisions even now I'm married with a family of my own...my issue is more often than not I just let her take control because I hate confrontation.

I get on with her well, I hd a good childhood and I'm damn lucky to hav the mum I've got, but yeah, she is manipulative at times.

 

[starrkers]

I don't get on well with my mother, never have. I was an accidental birth, came along about the time she was getting ready to be child free (my brothers were teens or just off it).
I have never been good enough for her and have always been a disappointment. I am the only member of my family to go to university, I held a high pressure job, and have three reasonably well behaved, well adjusted children. I am "not as bad a mother as I thought you'd be".
She rang me today to tell me her sister had died, "though why should it matter to you, you never met her".
I live a long way from her. Last time I suggested visiting she told me to leave my children at home. That was three years ago.

 

[Chantilyvamp]

Hmmm. Carnevil9, I might have small attributes of my mother but I will not ever become her.

She is self absorbed and no one else matters. She bows to her husband like is he is a god, does everythng for him, he doesnt hardly move accept to switch from one seat to another. She pushes her children aside like they never existed when he says. She tries to control everyone and if we are not good enough then we are cast out till she deem fits even if it was her who started things. She has manipulated and even stolen our inheritance to give it to her only birth child. She has lied and hid things and then lied some more till she forgot what she lied about and told the truth. On top of it she is prejudiced and hates everything that I am even though she doesnt know its what I am.

Yet I do love her for she is my mother but boy do I have issues with her sometimes.

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

I love my mom very much. She's strong, very strong. She's had four daughters, worked on a Dairy Farm, got herself through school at the age of 50ish to become an RN. Wanted a little red mustang when she turned 50 and got it. Dad's about to retire and she'll be the one continuing to work full time to provide for them. She's now 57.

With that said... My mom lives for stress. She seems to want it. She takes on everything, but that is a mom's job, or so we've been taught. I do it. I feel obligated to try and make everything right. I'm learning though that I can't. I'm not God.

My mom is also weak in other ways. I have three sisters, she's bent over backwards for them. I am not perfect, but I learned from them what I didn't want to do because it would bring my parents pain. She's got one daughter left in the house, 27 years old, no job, no money, no ambition. She buys her the meds she needs, provides her with food and board and internet service. My youngest sister will never leave the nest, because my mom and yes my dad won't make her.

I love her, very much though and would be lost without her.

 

[cloudy]

I get along wonderfully with my mother. She's smart, strong, vital even as she approaches 80 years old.

She's everything I admire. No issues with her whatsoever.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I'm writing a story in which a woman has a schizophrenic break and does something horrible. The film focuses on her stay at the asylum. Well, I have it mostly completed, but in contemplating her character, I've determined she has issues with her mother. However, I'd like it to be at least semi-realistic, and not one of those female perspectives uncomfortably written by a male.

What would constitute real issues women have had with their mothers? Any help would be vastly appreciated.

This reminds me of the excellent advice Colleen once gave me when I asked a similar question - "would a person with X experience really be able to feel Y at this point in her life?" Colleen responded, "She will if you write her that way." It's some of the best advice on characterization I have been given.

I'd say, concentrate less on collecting examples of actual women's actual problems with their mothers. They can give you ideas, perhaps, but every one of those problems - as we've already seen in the kind offerings here - is much more about who each of those women is as an individual person than about anything generalizable to others. If you wanted to capture the heartbreak in starrkers' post, for instance - and starrkers, I'm so sorry that it's been that way - you'd have to start with what she seems to feel is the root of it: the fact that her conception might have been an unwelcome surprise. Then you'd have to add in elements of personality particular to her mother - the grudgingness with praise, the lack of warmth for family, the distance. That's where the tension really lies.

And look. All of those sources of tension could just as easily exist with a father who had the same personality and the same feelings about his child. The psychology of it works naturally and organically, not because starrkers' example captures something peculiar to mother-daughter conflict, but because it captures real human feeling and psychology in its full context. If you do the same with your mother-daughter conflict, anything you create will be realistic.

Of course, I do think that there are some feelings that are more strongly emphasized by parental roles. Our society tends to teach us that mothers should be the primary nurturers and encouragers of children, and so a mother who is emotionally cooler or apparently unhappy with the choice to have children tends to create stronger feelings of abandonment or loss than a father with the same characteristics - particularly if the father isn't counterbalancing this by being more nurturing than usual.

Too, children do look to their same-sex parents for role models (just imagine the difficulty I've had), and so rejection of their best efforts can be particularly strongly felt because they're especially keen for approval from the person they are, to some extent, modelling themselves on. But as a man, I think that you've got plenty to work with in trying to envision what that must feel like. Imagine your father behaving in the same way toward you, and you've got the rejection-by-a-role-model element; add in the pain of your mother slapping aside your feelings in favor of her own, and you've got the whole thing together. You may not know precisely what any individual mother-daughter conflict feels like, but then who of us knows what anyone else really feels? What you can do is use what you already know about your own feelings, psychology, and parental relations to construct a context, background, and conflict that work consistently and realistically together - and so long as you're true to human nature and motivation, it will be true.

It will also work better with your story. Build the psychology with the later development of the story in mind, and the childhood, the adult conflict, the schizophrenic break, and the later experiences in the asylum will form a logical progression or development that can twist and turn without ever losing its sense of cohesion.

 

[Stella_Omega]

One thing that the examples thus far have had in common; control issues.

My mother is dealing with the issue of control as well-- she's very passive-agressive about it. Women of her generation didn't always get listened to...

 

[3113]

My mother is dealing with the issue of control as well-- she's very passive-agressive about it. Women of her generation didn't always get listened to...

Stella hit it right on the head. There are two issues women usually have with their mothers and, unlike Carney says, SOME OF US ladies, even those of us with mom problems, are objective enough to recognize it, understand it, and clearly point it out:

1) Mom's are controlling. Even more "modern" moms who held jobs, etc., tend to be so because women are *still* overwhelmingly in control of the kids. Even if dad helps with the diapers and driving them to playdates, it's still mostly mom. So Mom's never get over controlling children (which sons have problems with, too). Telling them what to do and how to behave. Also, as Stella pointed out, there is still a male bias in the work place, etc. Women don't feel listened to, or paid attention to. If they express concern, it's seen as "nagging" and ignored, whereas if a man expressed the same concern, he'd be listened to and obeyed. It's that problem women have always had--the "pecking" order syndrome where a lot of men won't listen to anyone but a more alpha male.

So Mom's nag their kids; control their kids; manipulate their kids in order to feel the power they lack in their marital relationships or job relationships. Mom needs to feel that she's in control and command of the family, that they listen to her and care about her feelings, thoughts and ideas.

2) Second most common problem with daughters/moms: daughter doesn't feel that she was ever "good" enough for mom. This is the "projection" problem (and again, it happens with sons as well--Dads and sons mainly). The parent projects onto the child what she feels they ought to be. What they, the parent, failed at. If the parent didn't get a ph.d., then the child is going to get one. If the parent failed at sports, the child is going to succeed. Or the child is just going to act like a trophy for the parent ("My daughter is a brain surgeon...."). The child's success reflects on the parent.

In the case of the daughter, she's going to be the best student, successful doctor, mother, etc. And anything she does that either runs counter to this or fails to hit the mark is disappointing. If she makes the mark, she has to make top marks or she's disappointed again. And if she makes top marks, well, that was *expected* so she STILL doesn't get praised, just told that, "Good, you did this, now you can go onto that..." and mom points to the next hoop daughter is expected to jump through.

Nasty business that. But it's the way a lot of parents are (dads and moms). They have a vision of how their child is going to be, and when the child turns out to be a human being, with their own likes, dislikes, goals, etc., the parent is disappointed...and expresses that to the child in some form or other. Actively or passively.

 

[3113]

This reminds me of the excellent advice Colleen once gave me when I asked a similar question - "would a person with X experience really be able to feel Y at this point in her life?" Colleen responded, "She will if you write her that way." It's some of the best advice on characterization I have been given.

But that comes with a caveat, Shanglan. You have to write her that way *BELIEVABLY*.

I've seen too many characters who feel or act in a way that makes no sense at all simply because the author WANTS them to feel or act that way. I remember seeing a character who suddenly felt enormous guilt for something not their fault--yet there was nothing in the character to suggest they should or WOULD feel any such guilt. The writers wanted them to feel it, and so they did...and it ruined the story. It made me, and several other people I talked to about it, disengage, forget about the story. Because there was no *way* that character, what we'd seen of them up to that point, was going to feel "Y" from the "X" experience.

I suspect Colleen meant it that way as well, but it has to be said. It's too easy for writers to say, "My character is going to do what I want them to do, period" without caring about whether there's verisimilitude or any organic feeling to it. Of *course* we puppet our characters, but the strings must be invisible. If the audience can't forget you're back there and that this is a puppet show, they'll stop watching.

Which is to say, I think it's a good thing Figaro is asking for a people's personal perspective on this. If the right insight strikes him for the character, it will help him to puppet the character so that it looks "real" rather than being on strings.

 

[BlackShanglan]

But that comes with a caveat, Shanglan. You have to write her that way *BELIEVABLY*.

I suspect Colleen meant it that way as well, but it has to be said.

Ahhh ... yes. I'm just a bit confused because it was said. That was what the rest of my post was about. Making them psychologically consistent, contextualized, rooted, believable - that part?

 

[gauchecritic]

In my experience parent/child conflict (mother/daughter or father/son) generally peaks (or piques) at or around puberty.

Just as the kids are getting grossly confused about their bodies which affects their temperament, judgement, sociability etc they also suddenly realise that they are effectively (biologically) grown up.

This often means that they are naturally obliged to challenge the status quo, simply in order to either affirm their identities or to initiate the growth of a new one.

Girls are apt to challenge mothers for the affection of fathers (much as I hate to say it; in a Freudian kind of way) and sons challenge fathers as the power centre. (or sometimes vice versa) [this is where the Freudian part diverges because boys don't want to only shag their mothers but any available female, sibling or otherwise]

So there you have it. It's not just mothers and daughters it's women and any other female.

 

[figarojonez]

Too many to respond too, but I will say thanks for all the insight. It's helping carve out where the central conflict is going to be, though I wouldn't pass up more advice.

For those who have said I should use my own perspective, I've read too many "female perspectives" from male authors that turn into really bad, masturbatory, self-indulgent tripe. I'm sure women can have body issues, but I don't need to read, or fall back on writing about them looking at themselves nude in the mirror and being proud of their budding breasts (which seems to pop up with striking regularity), which creates issues between them and their cliched, cold hearted mothers who hate them for no given reason. If a woman writes it, I can at least accept it as being partially autobiographical. When a man writes it, I feel they're being crass.

Just my take.

Thanks again, it's really appreciated.

 

[Stella_Omega]

In my experience parent/child conflict (mother/daughter or father/son) generally peaks (or piques) at or around puberty.

Just as the kids are getting grossly confused about their bodies which affects their temperament, judgement, sociability etc they also suddenly realise that they are effectively (biologically) grown up.

This often means that they are naturally obliged to challenge the status quo, simply in order to either affirm their identities or to initiate the growth of a new one.

Girls are apt to challenge mothers for the affection of fathers (much as I hate to say it; in a Freudian kind of way) and sons challenge fathers as the power centre. (or sometimes vice versa) [this is where the Freudian part diverges because boys don't want to only shag their mothers but any available female, sibling or otherwise]

So there you have it. It's not just mothers and daughters it's women and any other female.

Of all the teens that I have known in the past eight years-- i can't think of a single girl who has wanted to shag her father, nor any boy who wants his mother (other friends mothers, possibly). I asked my daughter-- she thought long and hard and came up with nothing.

They have so many other choices these days! Film stars, rock stars, their peers-- an Electra complex is NOT the point of antagonism.

It's about control. Girls need to move out on their own, moms need to mantain authority.

 

[Vermilion]

In my experience parent/child conflict (mother/daughter or father/son) generally peaks (or piques) at or around puberty.

Just as the kids are getting grossly confused about their bodies which affects their temperament, judgement, sociability etc they also suddenly realise that they are effectively (biologically) grown up.

This often means that they are naturally obliged to challenge the status quo, simply in order to either affirm their identities or to initiate the growth of a new one.

Girls are apt to challenge mothers for the affection of fathers (much as I hate to say it; in a Freudian kind of way) and sons challenge fathers as the power centre. (or sometimes vice versa) [this is where the Freudian part diverges because boys don't want to only shag their mothers but any available female, sibling or otherwise]

So there you have it. It's not just mothers and daughters it's women and any other female.

See, this is wrong. I challenged *both* my parents for control. My dad was the one who shouted back so most of my early teens were spent with us *screaming* at each other. I wanted to get as far away from him as possible.
x
V

 

[Vermilion]

Of all the teens that I have known in the past eight years-- i can't think of a single girl who has wanted to shag her father, nor any boy who wants his mother (other friends mothers, possibly). I asked my daughter-- she thought long and hard and came up with nothing.

They have so many other choices these days! Film stars, rock stars, their peers-- an Electra complex is NOT the point of antagonism.

It's about control. Girls need to move out on their own, moms need to mantain authority.

OK. Stella said it better. But my point is the same...
x
V

 

[Handprints]

I'm not sure it's exclusively about control. I think there are generational issues as well, particularly from (readies self for abuse) boomer moms who feel their generation has defined how women should live for future generations. To be fair, this is probably also true of older mothers who missed or didn't agree with the way feminism redefined female success.

A lot of the mother/daughter conflict, at least for daughters who are out in the world, stems from mothers not appreciating their daughters' accomplishments, or, more specifically, treating their daughters' accomplishments as substitutes for the things that mother thinks they "ought" to be accomplishing.

(Looks down, double-checks) Of course I am not a woman, so I'm basing this primarily on the women I've had to comfort after they have phoned their mothers...

 

[Vermilion]

ok.
This wins the award for oddest spam on a porn board ever.
x
V

 

[gauchecritic]

Apt and Freud in the same sentence and still you didn't get the hint.

And asking someone if they want to shag their parent? You expect a proper answer to a deeply Freudian question?

The real part of the post said:

"...they also suddenly realise that they are effectively (biologically) grown up.

This often means that they are naturally obliged to challenge the status quo, simply in order to either affirm their identities or to initiate the growth of a new one."

All the rest was gobbledegook.

But you just couldn't let it lie, could you?

 

[3113]

But you just couldn't let it lie, could you?

Well, a Freudian would say that you added in that part because you subconsciously wanted folk to jump on it

 

[Vermilion]

Well, a Freudian would say that you added in that part because you subconsciously wanted folk to jump on it

i find it interesting that you use the word 'jump'... does that mean you would like to be jumped?
x
V

 

[3113]

In my experience parent/child conflict (mother/daughter or father/son) generally peaks (or piques) at or around puberty.

Ultimately, this is a given. Almost all teens will have conflicts with their parents, it's a rite of passage, hormones, identity and adulthood. No big news this. But the important part for the story that Figaro is writing is that for some, the parent/child conflict continues on into adulthood--and in that instance, it's not about child rebellion or fighting for the affection of the other parent.

Yes, the conflict is still a power struggle, as almost all discussions and arguments are. Who is right? Who is wrong? Who is going to have things *their* way? Power and control are what the puberty wars are about and what the adult wars are about. But there are added depths and levels when it gets to an adult level because unlike at the puberty level, the child (1) knows who they are, (2) Generally knows what they want, (3) Has the power/adulthood to get/have what they want if they're willing to work at it (with notable exceptions like ill or hospitalized adults), (4) may be able to separate from the parent if they wish (cut off all contact with mom/dad), (5) has their own private, adult life (mom isn't cleaning their room, reading their diary).

This makes the battle between parent/child a bit different. The parent may not (likely does not) have leverage of being the one who feeds, clothes and houses the child, as well as having legal guardianship over them. The parent, therefore, cannot threaten to "ground" the child or take away their allowance to get them to obey. Likewise, for the child to put up with the parent's manipulation of their adult life requires other needs than those of a teenager (a place to live, food, clothes, etc.).

Putting it another way, it's one thing for a mother to tell her 16 year old daughter she may not see this or that boy. Mom may rightly fear her 16 year old getting preggers or getting raped--she may be wrong about the boy in question, but it's not unreasonable for mom to want to protect a hormonally charged 16 year old from bad judgement--and it's no surprise if they end up screaming at each other over it. But it's quite a different story for a mother to tell her 28 year old daughter that she shouldn't be seeing this or that guy, and play emotional games with her daughter's feelings, like undermining the daughter's self-esteem or threatening to withhold affection, in order to get the daughter to break up with the guy.

I believe that's the kind of mother/daughter relationship Figaro was asking about and it's much more insidious than the parent/child conflicts common to puberty.